Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[bladeofdarkness]

suzaku is stuck playing zero for the rest of his life
which is a bitch i suppose
but it helps that the mask he has to wear belongs to the greatest hero the world has ever known, adored by all people on all sides of the conflict
i suppose that takes some of the edge off

[Kid Ying]

Well, Suzaku wanted to fix things, now, as Zero, he got the power to do it, so i guess it's not that bad. And he even got Nunnally for support and Schneisel for his bitch. Could be a lot worse, hehe.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Levy

in the classic sense and from a moral standpoint, yes, he is a villain doing unacceptable things - but he's no longer 'corrupted' by his inner darkness, like villains frequently are.
If i get it right , this is what azul meant with the 'descent' thing, isn't it, azul?

Yes. He didn't fall into pure villainy. That would more accurately describe other characters (i. e. most of the Knights of the Round, V. V., etc.).

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Well, Suzaku wanted to fix things, now, as Zero, he got the power to do it, so i guess it's not that bad. And he even got Nunnally for support and Schneisel for his bitch. Could be a lot worse, hehe.

Yeah. Suzaku did get that as a consolation prize.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by azul120

Yes. He didn't fall into pure villainy. That would more accurately describe other characters (i. e. most of the Knights of the Round, V. V., etc.)

..mh... I'm not sure that people like Bismark and Monica (Dorothea, is quite impossible to tell...) should be listed as pure villains: they are more misleaded fighters to me.
VV surely does.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by azul120

Yes. He didn't fall into pure villainy. That would more accurately describe other characters (i. e. most of the Knights of the Round, V. V., etc.)

All right guys, I think you might be missing the point. Harvey Dent's exact words were "Either you die a hero, or live long enough to SEE yourself become the villain". He didn't say either you die a hero or you become corrupt and evil. His point was that, inevitably, all heroes will come to be viewed negatively once they obtain too much power and the people will fear and resent them. In Lelouch's case he pretty much went all the way and accepted that role in order to do what he thought was best for the world.

[bladeofdarkness]

he figured that he makes a far better villain then a hero
went all the way with it
and then left the role of zero "hero of justice" to a man better suited to it (albit, not so much in the final arc)

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

All right guys, I think you might be missing the point. Harvey Dent's exact words were "Either you die a hero, or live long enough to SEE yourself become the villain". He didn't say either you die a hero or you become corrupt and evil. His point was that, inevitably, all heroes will come to be viewed negatively once they obtain too much power and the people will fear and resent them. In Lelouch's case he pretty much went all the way and accepted that role in order to do what he thought was best for the world.

I acknowledged as much. I guess I got caught up pontificating on who the straight up villains were.

Originally Posted by Levy

..mh... I'm not sure that people like Bismark and Monica (Dorothea, is quite impossible to tell...) should be listed as pure villains: they are more misleaded fighters to me.
VV surely does.

True.

[bladeofdarkness]

aside from bradly there WERE no "straight up villains"
every villain has a motive that they seek to change the world with believing its for the better (and that even goes for V.V)

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he figured that he makes a far better villain then a hero
went all the way with it
and then left the role of zero "hero of justice" to a man better suited to it (albit, not so much in the final arc)

The reason behind it is irrelevant. The point is, that's what he became by his own will or not. He became the villain.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

The reason behind it is irrelevant. The point is, that's what he became by his own will or not. He became the villain.

no arguments there

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

The reason behind it is irrelevant. The point is, that's what he became by his own will or not. He became the villain.

He definitely played the role of villain. However, sacrificing himself in the end is something an actual villain would never do. Villains tend to be self-importantly self-preservational.

[bladeofdarkness]

villains come in many shades
a Necessarily Evil villain is a villain who does what he does to achive an overall noble result or to prevent a worse one
but who nevertheless knows what he is doing is wrong and fully expects to pay for it
and lelouch fits the Necessarily Evil one better then he does ANYTHING else

[Shinn_Kabuto]

I always wanted to make this thread up. Again, I'm very sorry for my rude behavior. And ultimately, lesson learned: In order to stop someone posting whiny nonsense, it's better that I'll always click the report post button rather than insult people. Let the top guys do the cleaning job, not me. And I don't want to get into any trouble here ever AGAIN. Thanks.

*takes a deep breath*

On-topic: I personally loved the ending. I can't believe that a flawed human being like Lelouch will do something like that. Even the ultimate power comes with the ultimate price.

[GundamFan0083]

Before I get to the meat of what I'd like to say, allow me to say I thought the ending episode was as perfect as I could hope for (9 out ot 10)!

I've read the arguments over the course of the 276 pages of this thread on whether or not Lelouche is dead and here's my take on this whole thing.

First off, after reading the interviews, the reviews and seeing the show it's my opinion that Okouchi and Taniguchi intended for CG to be a work of art and like any other artwork the interpretation of the meaning of the piece is up to the person viewing it.

I used to think that Lelouche was 100% dead when I watched this show the first time online and now I'm of a different opinion.

I think what Okouchi implyied in the rather euphemistic Continue #42 interview and what Taniguchi alluded too in the Newtype article is that Lelouche Li Britainnia is dead in the Same way that Suzaku is technically dead, but is now Zero and that FOR THEM (Okouchi and Taniguchi) the show is over.

However, after seeing the ending again (for a second time) I've come to think that we viewers are given the choice to determine for ourselves what we wish to make of the end scene with CC and the tantalizing artistic-simulacrum (not in the literal sense) of the cart driver who may be interpreted as being L2/R2; or we can choose not to see it that way and still be happy with it.

That said I'd like to say that I've already seen the Japanese version (subbed) twice, and I'm now currently watching the [adult swim] english dub which is at episode 22 currently.

A few points I've picked up on this third time around (as some of you probably saw the first time, but watching it and reading it at the same time caused me to miss a few things. ) that I missed before but have a second opinion of now that I'm watching CG in English.
These observations don't prove or disprove anything they're just vague points that allow the viewer IMHO to determine how he/she wants to interpret episode 25 once they see it.

1) We never see VV's Code sigil appear but we know he has one.
2) CC's Code sigil only shows when her Code is activated in one way or another (like at the Geass cave)
3) Charles takes VV's Code very quickly in eps. 14/15 but we don't see the process (most likely he touched him and nothing more, like Charles tried to do to CC to take her Code).
4) We see Lelouche shoot Charles in episode 14 and bleed profusely after Lelouche Geasses him, thus "killing" Charles an perhaps activiting the Code within hiim.
5) In episode 21 Lelouche gains full Geass thus giving him the ability to steal/receive a Code from a dying person with a Code.
6) Charles chokes Lelouche with the hand that bears his Code sigil and thus Lelouche MAY have taken his Code, but the writers/director have left this vague and unresolved (I think on purpose).
7) Nannunally has her "vision" into Lelouche's soul/mind in a very similar manner to what Lelouche sees in ep 1 of R1 when he touches CC. Is this a Code in Lelouche or just Nannually becoming a CG version of Professor Xavier? I believe it's our choice.
8) We see Lelouche smile after Suzaku guts him. Why? Again a very vague representation which could either mean his happy about his death or he knows he's getting the last laugh on the world.
9) CC cries in the church for Lelouche. Again Why? Is it because he's dead or because like her he'll live forever? I used to think it was because she knew he was going to die, but since I've seen the English version and thus the events leading up to this episode (well up to episdoe 22 anyway) I've come to change my opinion and I now think that she's shedding that tear because she doesn't want Lelouche to suffer the hell of living forever like her, even if it's with her, especially knowing that he will never be able to see Nannually again and he doesn't love CC.
10) The whole end sequence with CC talking to herself/Lelouche. I used to think she was only looking up at the sky until I watched the sub again and saw her head move towards the front of the cart as if to speak to the person in front, but again this is very vague and can be interpreted in a number of ways. Plus the whole crane thing threw me, why would CC keep it? Maybe as a memento of Lelouche? Or maybe it was Lelouche that's keeping it? It's hard for me to say.

So I'm now in the "I'm not so sure he's 100% dead" line of thinking.
The persona known as Lelouche Li Britainnia is dead for sure, but I'm now warming up to the idea that Sunrise left this open for him to have a Code and be R2/L2 as some have speculated.
Since the ending was meant to be open for interpretation (as Director Taniguchi said in Newtype Japan's interview) I think it's safe to say that the possibility of L2/R2 being alive with C2 is wide open.

Besides, Sunrise/BanDai has never been a company to pass up milking a cash cow, and Geass was certainly that.

Lastly I'd like to say this is one of the most artistic anime and thus best anime I've seen in a while, episode 25 was well worth the wait to see it a second time and is worth waiting to see in English.

I'm sure people will continue to discuss this series (and argue about it) for many years to come which to me is a testment to how well done it is.

[azul120]

Lelouch's smile was one of self-satisfaction, presumably in that he had fulfilled his mission and would have to suffer no more.

[GundamFan0083]

Lelouch's smile was one of self-satisfaction, presumably in that he had fulfilled his mission and would have to suffer no more.

I lean that way too that his smile was that he had achieved his goal of dying for all the world to see.

The thing that wracks my brain about that one tho is the damn R2/L2 Offical Guidebook entry under Lelouche which states;

"Lelouch, who gathered not just his sister's but the sins of all of his kin, tells Suzaku that he wants him to kill him. And, atoning for his sin of killing his father by becoming Zero and devoting himself to world peace. That is Suzaku's wish. Pierced by Suzaku's sword, Lelouch li Britainnia dies with a satisfied smile on his face. The curtains are lowered upon the history of one boy who performed the perfect evil to the end."

That last part is what messes with me.
Perfect evil?
Like maybe getting the last laugh on the world and Suzaku?
Lelouche is a liar through the whole darn series which is why I think the editors added this part; to keep us guessing.

[azul120]

Perfect evil act at the end of the series with the Zero Requiem, I think it meant.

[GundamFan0083]

You could be totally right...heck if I know.
I just know that Sunrise likes to mess with the fans.
When Char "died" in the original Gundam (on Aboa Kou) the official Roman Album Extra listed him as dead.
But then a few years later we're introduced to Quatro Bagina in Zeta Gundam who turns out to be Char Aznable...talk about a boot to the head for the fans, but hey, that's BanDai/Sunrise for ya.

What ever works...just keep the good mecha-anime series (Geass, Gundam, whatever) coming that's all I care about.

I have to admit that the vagueness of the end is what really attracts to this series.
I hate being spoonfed all kinds of explanations and concrete proofs...takes the fun out of it for me, but that's me, other people have other opinions and I'm cool with that.

[AceD]

dead or alive, you can argue it for another 300pages, despite the fact it seems clearcut hes dead, theres alot of plotholes on how he could of survived...no doubt.

id love them to milk it as long as the anime still stays amazing, since geass ended, nothing else ''epic'' has aired since...

most obvious start to a season3 would be for it to be some years later...CC & Lelouch are living peacefully somewhere together, and war breaks out again...Suzaku might be powerfull as zero, but he lacks the intellect to dictate a battle, so Lelouch decides to create a new persona and set out to purify the world

though am clearly dreaming...maybe

[Kid Ying]

Since Suzaku got Schneisel as his bitch, i don't think he could have a problem like this. I think only something related to the geass could've make Lelouch reappears... If he really was alive, of course.