Medaka Box [Manga]

[Soji]

Sol Falling@Tell me you do not think this seriously.
In short, according to your reasoning, zen sacrifices of 13 years for Medaka and the loss loss of his vision against Kumagawa and his near death experience are less important that this Akune choice . _.
And rebellion? So for you ... It seems that the current Zen rebellion is like a little dog who rebels against her mistress?

[Clarste]

Sacrifice has no value when it's not asked for. Zen chose to do that of his own will. Medaka owes his exactly nothing for it.

[TheAlucid]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Sacrifice has no value when it's not asked for. Zen chose to do that of his own will. Medaka owes his exactly nothing for it.

That's just the thing though, part of the point of Zen's personality originally was that he constantly refuses/denies Medaka's requests and yet in the end delivers for her. He's been sacrificing for Medaka at Medaka's request for 13 years, granted I imagine he has sacrificed for her without her behest as well.

And yet she hasn't acknowledged him, she's taken his friendship for granted.

[Odd]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

No, the difference between Medaka's reaction to Akune and Zenkichi is precisely about who's being a man. Akune is standing up to Medaka in order to help out someone in need; y'know, showing that he genuinely cares for others, and is not just looking for her approval or attention. Zenkichi's rebellion, contrarily, helps out no one but Ajimu and had the basis of pretty much nothing but a tantrum.

This post makes no sense, especially when Medaka already explained that her response to Zenkichi was in fact because she wanted him as an enemy.
Also, you could say Zenkichi is manning up because he's decided to turn on his "owner" for the last 13 years who has little to no sign of appreciation of his work at all.

[ziggi92]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

No, the difference between Medaka's reaction to Akune and Zenkichi is precisely about who's being a man. Akune is standing up to Medaka in order to help out someone in need; y'know, showing that he genuinely cares for others, and is not just looking for her approval or attention. Zenkichi's rebellion, contrarily, helps out no one but Ajimu and had the basis of pretty much nothing but a tantrum.

but this is bit irony to say this as rebellion against Medaka since reason for getting Kumagawa was to challenge her but now when she gets challenge from Zenkichi it is rebellion also why does she says to Kikijima that she was right to like him but misplaced him & finds more interesting to have as enemy.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/medaka...3/c118/17.html

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by TheAlucid

That's just the thing though, part of the point of Zen's personality originally was that he constantly refuses/denies Medaka's requests and yet in the end delivers for her. He's been sacrificing for Medaka at Medaka's request for 13 years, granted I imagine he has sacrificed for her without her behest as well.

And yet she hasn't acknowledged him, she's taken his friendship for granted.

"Sacrificing for Medaka at Medaka's request." See, here's the problem. Who does Medaka want to help? Who needs help? If there's one person who's strong enough to never have needed Zenkichi's aid or protection, it's Medaka. Zenkichi was the one who taught Medaka to help others. That's what she valued about him. How can it be, then, that Zenkichi doesn't want to help others himself? All the sacrifice Zenkichi did for a superhuman beast like Medaka, was there ever any point to it? Medaka, knowing her own capabilities, do you think she should have seen a point to it? Medaka respected Zenkichi's efforts when she thought they were for the sake of others. And she has great appreciation for people chasing their own dreams. But "sacrificing" for her sake? How utterly pointless.

Originally Posted by Odd

This post makes no sense, especially when Medaka already explained that her response to Zenkichi was in fact because she wanted him as an enemy.
Also, you could say Zenkichi is manning up because he's decided to turn on his "owner" for the last 13 years who has little to no sign of appreciation of his work at all.

No, Medaka didn't want Zenkichi for an enemy. She beat him up because she wants him to grow. (i.e., "manning up"? lol, he still has a ways to go.) Medaka simply realized that being her enemy was the best way for Zenkichi to achieve that.

[yuzen003]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

"Sacrificing for Medaka at Medaka's request." See, here's the problem. Who does Medaka want to help? Who needs help? If there's one person who's strong enough to never have needed Zenkichi's aid or protection, it's Medaka.

And yet she continued to ask for his help, so is a sacrifice less of a sacrifice if it is not "needed"?

[evil|plushie]

no Medaka wanted him for an enemy. She even says it'll be more interesting that way. Having Akune for an enemy however means nothing.

As for the people saying 'oh, she didn't ask him to sacrifice so she can treat him anyway she likes," I', reminded of the relationship between parent and child. Usually a parent will make sacrifices for their children that they dont ask for, mostly cause they're too young to know anything, that doesn't mean the child can be an uppity jackass about it just cause they didn't ask for it.

[Last Carpet]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

"Sacrificing for Medaka at Medaka's request." See, here's the problem. Who does Medaka want to help? Who needs help? If there's one person who's strong enough to never have needed Zenkichi's aid or protection, it's Medaka. Zenkichi was the one who taught Medaka to help others. That's what she valued about him. How can it be, then, that Zenkichi doesn't want to help others himself? All the sacrifice Zenkichi did for a superhuman beast like Medaka, was there ever any point to it? Medaka, knowing her own capabilities, do you think she should have seen a point to it? Medaka respected Zenkichi's efforts when she thought they were for the sake of others. And she has great appreciation for people chasing their own dreams. But "sacrificing" for her sake? How utterly pointless.

Isn't Medaka the one who claimed to understand Zenkichi the best and claimed that Zen understands her the best?

Isn't she the one who said that his reassurance is what makes it possible for her to help others?

Didn't she say that she needs him and all she wants is him to be by her side?

[Soji]

Originally Posted by Last Carpet

Isn't Medaka the one who claimed to understand Zenkichi the best and claimed that Zen understands her the best?

Yes.

Isn't she the one who said that his reassurance is what makes it possible for her to help others?

Again Yes.

Didn't she say that she needs him and all she wants is him to be by her side?

And yes.
And that's what makes the situation even more painful in regard to Zen.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

And yet she continued to ask for his help, so is a sacrifice less of a sacrifice if it is not "needed"?

Who was Medaka asking Zenkichi to help? Other people. If Zenkichi's gonna whine about doing that (but he's not, because Zenkichi's not a complete hypocrite; though you guys sure are trying hard to make him out to be), she would have happily done it herself.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

no Medaka wanted him for an enemy. She even says it'll be more interesting that way. Having Akune for an enemy however means nothing.

As for the people saying 'oh, she didn't ask him to sacrifice so she can treat him anyway she likes," I', reminded of the relationship between parent and child. Usually a parent will make sacrifices for their children that they dont ask for, mostly cause they're too young to know anything, that doesn't mean the child can be an uppity jackass about it just cause they didn't ask for it.

lol. Why would having Akune for an enemy be any less interesting than Zenkichi? Didn't she start calling Kouki by his first name the precise moment he said he'd take her on? Medaka didn't beat up Akune because she doesn't have to to make him actually act with some balls around her.

As for your "parent and child" comparison, the thing is Medaka and Zen aren't a parent and child. If anything, Medaka was the one protecting Zen for most of their life (see this page which was posted in this thread recently). You can't call Zenkichi's "sacrifices" anything more than those of a clueless cherry boy trying to impress a girl.

Originally Posted by Last Carpet

Isn't Medaka the one who claimed to understand Zenkichi the best and claimed that Zen understands her the best?

Isn't she the one who said that his reassurance is what makes it possible for her to help others?

Didn't she say that she needs him and all she wants is him to be by her side?

Exactly. These reasons are exactly why Medaka never needed Zenkichi's "sacrifice". His reassurance that she could help people. His desire for the same dream. That's all Medaka ever wanted from Zen. She never needed Zenkichi to "do" anything for her, so if you're complaining about everything he "did" for her while he didn't even agree with what she said, I can only laugh.

[MD84]

Zenkichi's thirteen years of sacrifice, devotion, and protection were ultimately pointless and one-sided. The whole point of chapter 117 was Zenkichi coming to terms with that. Which just makes it even more tragic. TBF, it's not like Medaka ever gave him a reason to think she didn't need him -- she flat out told him and others that she relied on him. It's no wonder the other characters except Ajimu were shocked by her actions.

Spoiler for 122:

Medaka's reaction to Akune's defection makes sense. Unlike Zenkichi, he started out as her enemy. Making him an enemy again would just be a relapse. Akune's growth: Enemy -> ally -> devoted ally -> a man who still likes her, but no longer worships her and willing to support his longtime rival out of respect for his initiative. This just lends further support to Ajimu's theory that Medaka ultimately favors enemies over friends, since Akune is a former enemy as well as a friend. This actually applies to just about everyone on the Council except Zenkichi -- which is probably why she is pushing for this fight in the first place.

It's strange that this is being taken as proof of Medaka's good intentions and Zenkichi's lack of gratitude when the whole reason Akune is doing this is because he finds Zenkichi to be more sympathetic than Medaka and he has come to realize that Medaka isn't as good a person as he once thought.

Tsurubame is once again awesome. He may not be "MC" material, but damn.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol. Why would having Akune for an enemy be any less interesting than Zenkichi? Didn't she start calling Kouki by his first name the precise moment he said he'd take her on? Medaka didn't beat up Akune because she doesn't have to to make him actually act with some balls around her.

As for your "parent and child" comparison, the thing is Medaka and Zen aren't a parent and child. If anything, Medaka was the one protecting Zen for most of their life (see this page which was posted in this thread recently). You can't call Zenkichi's "sacrifices" anything more than those of a clueless cherry boy trying to impress a girl.

Like someone said, it's because Akune already started out by being an enemy to her back in middle school. There's really no value for him to be an enemy again unlike Zenkichi who has never opposed her. If you look at it from Medaka's pov where she wants something interesting, she's already beaten Akune so she doesn't want to repeat that again. Zenkichi, not so much.

You mean Medaka was protecting Zenkichi from the things she kept dragging him into. Not to mention the several instances where Zenkichi has tried to protect Medaka, ie. from Munakata and Kumagawa respectively. And you keep calling him a clueless cherry boy like it means something other than a random soundbite that sounds like some politician trying to sling dirt around by name-calling and praying it works. Please explain how Zenkichi is clueless. He's known that Medaka doesn't love him but he does want to be special in her eyes, which tbh, he was before chapter 117.

Exactly. These reasons are exactly why Medaka never needed Zenkichi's "sacrifice". His reassurance that she could help people. His desire for the same dream. That's all Medaka ever wanted from Zen. She never needed Zenkichi to "do" anything for her, so if you're complaining about everything he "did" for her while he didn't even agree with what she said, I can only laugh.

She never needed Zenkichi to do anything for her and yet you say she wanted Zenkichi's reassurance and needed him to have the same desire for the same dream. Uh...illogical much?

[yuzen003]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Who was Medaka asking Zenkichi to help? Other people. If Zenkichi's gonna whine about doing that (but he's not, because Zenkichi's not a complete hypocrite; though you guys sure are trying hard to make him out to be), she would have happily done it herself.

She had the ability and willingness to do the tasks she asked Zenkichi to do, but she asked him to help instead of doing it herself. If I ask someone to help a third party move (or really any other task that doesn't benefit me) they are still helping me because I was the one who requested their assistance. There are two people who are receiving help even if only 1 receives a direct benefit, the person who receives help with their task and the person who has a request granted.

Is Zenkichi's help necessary? Probably not, as you say Medaka is quite capable of doing everything herself, but she did ask Zenkichi for help so the question of if she could have done it herself is a moot point. Zenkichi willingly give up pretty much everything he had time, effort, physical well being and temporarily his life for the sake of Medaka, the fact that it was unnecessary or voluntary doesn't make it less of a sacrifice. If you could provide your definition of sacrifice it might make it easier to see your point of view on this matter, does it need to be a necessary sacrifice or of direct benefit to one of the parties involved?

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Like someone said, it's because Akune already started out by being an enemy to her back in middle school. There's really no value for him to be an enemy again unlike Zenkichi who has never opposed her. If you look at it from Medaka's pov where she wants something interesting, she's already beaten Akune so she doesn't want to repeat that again. Zenkichi, not so much.

Medaka never fought Kouki once. In the middle school flashbacks, Akune repeatedly beat up Medaka, but she never once dodged or hit back. Akune reformed and decided to follow Medaka when she saved him from the gang Zenkichi gathered (in order to get revenge on Akune after his reputation started weakening). Medaka spent pretty much the entire Treasure Hunt arc saying how she'd like to fight Kouki; of course she thinks it'd be interesting.

You mean Medaka was protecting Zenkichi from the things she kept dragging him into. Not to mention the several instances where Zenkichi has tried to protect Medaka, ie. from Munakata and Kumagawa respectively. And you keep calling him a clueless cherry boy like it means something other than a random soundbite that sounds like some politician trying to sling dirt around by name-calling and praying it works. Please explain how Zenkichi is clueless. He's known that Medaka doesn't love him but he does want to be special in her eyes, which tbh, he was before chapter 117.

lol, I've been the one telling people that Zenkichi was special before chapter 117. Everyone else was complaining that Medaka "always" treated Zenkichi like he was worthless. Zenkichi is clueless precisely because he ruined the thing which made him special to Medaka; by trying too hard at the pointless things which he thought were what made him special.

She never needed Zenkichi to do anything for her and yet you say she wanted Zenkichi's reassurance and needed him to have the same desire for the same dream. Uh...illogical much?

Where do you imagine the inconsistency? Medaka valued Zenkichi for his beliefs only--this means exactly that he never needed to "do" or "sacrifice" anything for her. So long as Zenkichi actually shared the ideals he gave Medaka, he would have always remained special to her.

Originally Posted by yuzen003

She had the ability and willingness to do the tasks she asked Zenkichi to do, but she asked him to help instead of doing it herself. If I ask someone to help a third party move (or really any other task that doesn't benefit me) they are still helping me because I was the one who requested their assistance. There are two people who are receiving help even if only 1 receives a direct benefit, the person who receives help with their task and the person who has a request granted.

Is Zenkichi's help necessary? Probably not, as you say Medaka is quite capable of doing everything herself, but she did ask Zenkichi for help so the question of if she could have done it herself is a moot point. Zenkichi willingly give up pretty much everything he had time, effort, physical well being and temporarily his life for the sake of Medaka, the fact that it was unnecessary or voluntary doesn't make it less of a sacrifice. If you could provide your definition of sacrifice it might make it easier to see your point of view on this matter, does it need to be a necessary sacrifice or of direct benefit to one of the parties involved?

But didn't Ajimu tell you? Medaka didn't ask for Zenkichi's help--she took it for granted. Medaka always thought Zenkichi shared the same goals as her because both he and she always said "I am the one who understands Medaka/Zenkichi best". It was because Medaka believed Zenkichi shared the same dream and ideals as her that he was special to her in the first place.

If none of Zenkichi's effort was actually necessary, then Zenkichi really did it for one of two reasons: either 1) Zenkichi genuinely wanted to or believed it was right to do it; or else 2) he wanted to impress Medaka and give her a good impression of him. Either way, Zenkichi's actions were his own responsibility, and Medaka has repaid him already by treating Zenkichi as special and having a high opinion of him for 13 years.

[evil|plushie]

She's beaten Akune without beating him up. And frankly, why would Medaka want to fight Akune? Seriously, wtf can he possibly do to her??? It's like Goku saying 'Hmm, I want to fight krillilin" suddenly after the SSJ arc. Also, Akune was an enemy before which Zenkichi wasn't.

And I have no idea what you're talking about, about how Zenkichi's special point is trying hard but not too hard at the pointless things which he thought made him special.

Uh...I'd consider the fact that a) you're NOT allowed to disagree with certain ideals other people hold a pretty big sacrifice.

I think in the end, Zenkichi and Medaka didn't understand each other. Zenkichi thought Medaka had some semblance of normality (which she doesn't) and Medaka basically understands no one.

Plus you're kinda all over the place on what makes Zenkichi special to Medaka. Because frankly NONE of us know the exact reason. If it was as you said, because she believed Zenkichi shared the same dream/ideals as her , then she wouldn't have looked at him with those eyes in chapter 117 and this whole thing wouldn't have happened. It's obviously some other criteria that only makes sense to Medaka.

Except according to her, he was never special. At which point, he wasn't repaid by her according to your own logic -_-

[MD84]

Spoiler for 122:

We really don't have a clue what Medaka really thinks or what truly motivates her. She is one of the only characters who has never had an internal monologue revealing her thought processes. The only things we have to judge her by are her interactions with other characters, her actions, and the thoughts that other characters have about her. And honestly, the recent chapters haven't painted a very flattering portrayal of her. Her actions were cruel (if necessary in her own mind) and the other major characters either a) oppose her to support Zenkichi or b) want to reconcile the two. None of them think Medaka's treatment of Zenkichi was justified. She COULD be playing the role of a villain to motivate the others, like Lelouch did in Code Geass -- in fact, it's likely she is -- but until that's confirmed, she still comes across as callous.

Frankly, I like the hug she gave Akune. It was really needed to soften her character after her recent actions.

[evil|plushie]

You have a better chance of understanding cthulhu than Medaka. -_-

I think the hug kinda made things worse. So she viciously beats up her 'friend' for the past 13 years for opposing her but she hugs the guy whos known her for maybe 3-4 years for joining her 'friend' in opposing her. Wait, wtf?

[kingstonbeer]

I agree with plushie on the hug thing seems really awkward and wonder if they'll explain a tad more why Kamome hates look ppl in the eyes so much.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

She's beaten Akune without beating him up. And frankly, why would Medaka want to fight Akune? Seriously, wtf can he possibly do to her??? It's like Goku saying 'Hmm, I want to fight krillilin" suddenly after the SSJ arc. Also, Akune was an enemy before which Zenkichi wasn't.

Just go read the Treasure Hunt arc again. You can also read Akune's middle school flashback chapter again to see that Medaka never viewed Akune as an enemy (during the period Akune was beating up on her, all Medaka thought was "you should never bully someone weaker than you"). Although you seem to be pretty insistent (or just confused) about ignoring actual facts from the manga, the chapter is 38 for your reference :P.

And I have no idea what you're talking about, about how Zenkichi's special point is trying hard but not too hard at the pointless things which he thought made him special.

Uh...I'd consider the fact that a) you're NOT allowed to disagree with certain ideals other people hold a pretty big sacrifice.

Of course Zenkichi was allowed to disagree with them. That wouldn't have made Medaka hate him or anything. It would have removed the reason she valued him so much (i.e. no more "I need you"s or "He's the man who understands me best"s), but Medaka gets along just fine with her normal friends or enemies.

I think in the end, Zenkichi and Medaka didn't understand each other. Zenkichi thought Medaka had some semblance of normality (which she doesn't) and Medaka basically understands no one.

Medaka understands everybody else pretty fine. The only person who she's had a problematic relationship with is Zenkichi.

Plus you're kinda all over the place on what makes Zenkichi special to Medaka. Because frankly NONE of us know the exact reason. If it was as you said, because she believed Zenkichi shared the same dream/ideals as her , then she wouldn't have looked at him with those eyes in chapter 117 and this whole thing wouldn't have happened. It's obviously some other criteria that only makes sense to Medaka.

Obviously Medaka looked at Zenkichi with new eyes in 117 because she realized that he didn't truly share her dreams or understand her personality. The Treasure Hunt trial was built to test people's teamwork: their willingness to help other people, or be happy for someone else's win. Not only did Zenkichi come in dead last, he refused to accept his own failure and accused other people of cheating.

Except according to her, he was never special. At which point, he wasn't repaid by her according to your own logic -_-

Medaka said "There's no one special in this world." That says nothing about her personal feelings for people. Even Ajimu acknowledged that Zen used to be special to Medaka--that's why she had to intervene to break up their relationship.