2011-11-12, 10:35 | Link #5562 |
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Has anyone here read Ping Pong by Matsumoto Taiyou? because I think the theory on heroes is very similar to what's going on in Medaka Box right now.
The way I see it is that Zenkichi has been playing the role of the "hero" the whole time becuase of how lonely Medaka is: - Giving her a purpose when everyone else abandoned her because they couldn't handle her due to their own inadequacies - keeping her company after the middle school incident (I'm sure not being able to convert Kuma must have left her with issues for a while) - When she was brainwashed and became Medaka-Chan II he was the one who fought her and reverted her back to her original state through words afterwords - To eliminate the problem known as Kumagawa he was ready to shoulder her pain and sacrifice himself and kuma and now he has be her "hero" again because the not equal's have gotten involved and left her alone at the top because everyone has now, Zenkichi has to become her enemy to show her that he will always support even if it doesn't seem like it My version might seem distorted to the original theory but it still makes sense, in a way. |
2011-11-12, 11:15 | Link #5564 | |
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The parent and child anaology is not a parallel to the Zenkichi and Medaka relationship, more an example of a self sacrifice where the one sacrificing does so willingly and happily. Zen loves Medaka, he puts her well being above his own so he happily made the sacrifices he did. Re-read chapter 34 where we are shown Zen's inner thoughts, he knows Medaka will win any fight but against some people be hurt more then her opponent in the process. Zen resolved himself from that time to prevent anyone like that from getting close to her. This decision was not because he thought he would be appreciated or Medaka wouldn't be able to win without him, but because he wanted to prevent her from getting hurt. You can assign additional motives if you wish, but we have a direct view into Zen's thoughts. We know one of his motivations for staying with Medaka all this time was a selfless desire to keep her from collateral psychological injury as she destroys all her opponents (and he knows she will beat all her opponents without his help so it's not a chauvinistic thing). |
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2011-11-12, 11:48 | Link #5566 |
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Patronizing maybe, but would you leave a person who had become psychologically unstable to their own devices. Not likely.
As a friend, he did what he thought was right, upholding his ideals and creating a new one which was to never let anything like that happen again. You can't fault him for being a good friend. |
2011-11-12, 12:30 | Link #5568 | |
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-No Zenkichi (Zenkichi fanboys leave) -Medaka distraught (Zen dead, never got to reform Kumagawa, no normal support or whatever) -Kumagawa dead (No support from anybody, manga canceled instantly) What Zen wanted to do was not to comfort Medaka, to help her grow, he wanted to surround her in walls so she'd never get hurt. He didn't want to let her do her methods, because of the risk of injury. It's like exposing your weaknesses to people to help them. As bad as isolation is, her getting hurt was not something he'd want to swallow. It's not an inclination of people to see those they cherish hurt, even if it furthers their well being. The same can be said of doing bad deeds for a good purpose. But Ajimu boiled it down for Zen, your good deeds of protecting her aren't helping things at all. There are some circumstances where protecting is a good thing, in my opinion the way Zenkichi is doing it in the present situation is bad, but it's not like I'd say a person who jumps in front of a bullet to protect someone is also bad. Ajimu told him straight, you're not helping her. Instead, here's this bad deed you can do, that will do good for you. On a random side thought, Zen can not possibly win the "fight", because Medaka doesn't really see a "fight" as a single battle. She won the fight with Kumagawa, even though she lost a battle. The only way for Zen to beat Medaka, is to constantly be better than her, every single time she challenges him, every single time he challenges her, from the victory on. It's not so much a winnable fight, as it is a lifelong goal. Zenkichi isn't going to kill Medaka, and if Medaka kills Zenkichi, he loses. The only way to win is third parties intervention, which a third party has already formed, along with Ajimus plans. You could say the same thing about Medaka, but her goals are different, so she probably won't run into that snag. If Ajimu's plan is to turn it into a stalemate, Ajimu might win. A fight between two Medakas could possibly go on forever. |
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2011-11-12, 12:33 | Link #5569 | |||
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Zenkichi's attitude was pretty much the definition of "dumb male chivalry". Of course it was one-sided--it's sexist. Don't rage 'cause the girl was better than you and you can't play out your "hero" fantasy anymore. It doesn't matter how much he "sacrificed"; when Medaka made it clear she never wanted it in the first place, he was wrong. |
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2011-11-12, 12:49 | Link #5570 |
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Ajimu stated he treated everyone with the same patronizing attitude not specifically Medaka, but she followed up with the comment on holding Medaka back. If you think Zen is acting superior to Medaka by not believing she has the mental strength to take such injuries it would certainly be patronizing, but did he ever imply he would be better capable of dealing with that mental damage himself? He was normal so he knows he would take more damage dealing with the same problems then Medaka would given he doesn't always win, but he would rather take the injuries then allow Medaka to get hurt. It is the act of a friend protecting someone they care for so I don't know if the patronizing comment was in reference to their relationship (Zen generally doesn't treats Medaka as an inferior). I thought it might be in reference to Zen's acceptance of people and things in the series, as a normal most of the events of the series should be insane but he just treats it all as typical even when he knows it is messed up. An example of this is chapter 95 where Tsugiha starts talking about her delusional world, from his expression Zen knows she's probably crazy but he proceeds to treat her normally. Munakata pulling weapons from hammerspace, Shiranui drinking ramen like a beverage, Emukae spending 2 pages planning their future life together 2 minutes after they meet all and Zen treats them as if they were normal people that he can like, dislike, fight, befriend and communicate with normally. Zen has at times thought the people around him are insane, but he accepts their insanity as their natural state so he just goes along with it while thinking they are crazy.
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2011-11-12, 12:54 | Link #5571 |
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Just read the raw. Pretty interesting chapter.
Before this, I was reserving judgement on Medaka's actions towards Zenkichi until we get more details. But after this chapter, and seeing how well she treated Akune, I think I've swung quite firmly towards the camp that she had her heart in the right place. Not really sure if it's been covered by others before, those massive walls of text were simply too... massive. And numerous. But I now finally feel like contributing one of my own . Before "Reevaluation", I think Medaka's view of Zenkichi was: He gave Medaka her ideals --> He shares Medaka's ideals --> That's why he stays by Medaka's side --> Medaka should share the burden (give tasks to him too) so that Zen does not feel left out --> Everything Zen suffered at her side, he suffered for the sake of his / their shared ideals (not for Medaka) --> Zenkichi is a strong, independent man, living his life to the fullest --> DO WANT. Wrong? Naive? Hopelessly idealistic? True, but it was almost beaten into our heads in the earliest chapters that's simply how she is. Then "Reevaluation" happened, and her view became: Zen does not necessarily share her ideals --> Question: Then why was he by her side, trying so hard, following her in everything those 13 years? --> Answer: He was living purely for her sake? --> Then for the past 13 years, Zenkichi was never really his own man? --> DO NOT WANT. And so she took steps to change that. Whether it was necessary "tough love" or overly harsh and cruel is up to debate. But I think she wants what everybody wants for Zenkichi: for him to step out from under her and be his own man. So her heart at least is in the right place. I'm really looking forward to seeing how Nisiosin addresses this situation (that is if he decides to touch upon it at all ). On another note, Dark Hero was surprisingly awesome. Feel a little sorry for Zen though. When the unholy trinity of Medaka/Kumagawa/Ashin'in are on stage, they command most of the audience's attention, if not by pure force of personality, then by the fact that they have so far been the primary movers and shakers of the manga. When they're not, Zen has to jostle for attention with the likes of Dark Hero, Naze, Shiranui, and now Akune and other colorful personalities in the same faction. Really unfair. Looking forward to seeing how the author manages to make Zen more relevant in his own arc, assuming of course that this is Zen's personal arc, and not Nisiosin just using him as a catalyst to bigger and better things. |
2011-11-12, 13:19 | Link #5572 | ||
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Sacrificing himself, or worse other people, for Medaka's sake is exactly what she would never want or appreciate. Zenkichi kept going against Medaka's very dream in doing so. Why is Medaka supposed to "appreciate" a sacrifice that goes against the very purpose and ideals she lives for? |
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2011-11-12, 13:24 | Link #5573 | |
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Basically he believed her purpose was to help humanity not to change it into something else entirely e.g a race of people that can do no wrong. |
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2011-11-12, 13:35 | Link #5574 | |
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Please give any evidence that Zenkichi thinks Medaka is trying to "change humanity", lol. |
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2011-11-12, 13:48 | Link #5575 | |
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And again it even stated by Aijimu that Medaka's goal and the flask plan were very similar in a way. |
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2011-11-12, 13:50 | Link #5576 | |
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Last edited by Not Somebody; 2011-11-12 at 14:01. |
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2011-11-12, 14:06 | Link #5577 | |
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Anyway i just noticed this page which was kinda weird. Who the hell is the guy in the far left, why don't I remember him and why does he look so much like Zenkichi especially when he fought Munkata. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/medaka...07/c053/3.html |
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2011-11-12, 14:16 | Link #5578 | |
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action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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