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Tyabann · 2009-08-28, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marion

I never thought the Bern from Higurashi was the same as the Bern in Umineko. Just because she looks like Rika and all - hell we thought Erika was Bern before EP 5 came out, because of how she looked, and see what happened.

A lot of people did think they were the same, though, which is the whole point.

luckyssol · 2009-08-28, 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I'm with the side that says "Bern was evil all along and was just a trap for Higurashi players".

Honestly, that's the only way I can see it. Anything else is too complicated to be real.

I agree, that is possible. It also could be the case that they are completely different entities and I would be fine with that.

However, there's one thing that cannot be disputed.

The Bernkastel from Higurashi has something to do with the Bernkastel from Umineko. Given the name Erika Furudo she chooses for her gameboard piece it is obvious that she is linked to the Bernkastel from Higurashi is some way. At the minimum she knows at least some of the story of what happened during the events of Higurashi.

No one's going to buy the 'she was just a trap for Higurashi players' without backing up your comment with some kind of theory as to why they are so similar.

Tyabann · 2009-08-28, 21:34

It's not that the Bernkastel from Higurashi and the Bernkastel from Umineko are different individuals... I doubt they are... it's that, given Rika's behavior and personality, a lot of people expected Bern to be of a similar alignment.

She's not. And that's the whole trap with Bern.

luckyssol · 2009-08-28, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It's not that the Bernkastel from Higurashi and the Bernkastel from Umineko are different individuals... I doubt they are... it's that, given Rika's behavior and personality, a lot of people expected Bern to be of a similar alignment.

She's not. And that's the whole trap with Bern.

In episode 1 her words reflected almost exactly what Bernkastel from Higurashi would have said.

With each episode she has become more dark.

How can you claim that she was just that way all along, even before Umineko?

Isn't it possible that the events that are occuring in Umineko are changing her personality in a similar way to the theory I posted a few posts ago?

If you're taking the lines literally "I have no intention of becoming your ally... I'm the cruelest witch..." then I guess it's possible. That just seems to be too easy for a Ryukishi game though...

Tyabann · 2009-08-28, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssol

In episode 1 her words reflected almost exactly what Bernkastel from Higurashi would have said.

With each episode she has become more dark.

How can you claim that she was just that way all along, even before Umineko?

Isn't it possible that the events that are occuring in Umineko are changing her personality in a similar way to the theory I posted a few posts ago?

Because Ryukishi is a troll? I don't know.

I just can't believe Bern is a good person at this point.

luckyssol · 2009-08-28, 21:55

My point is to keep thinking. After episode 4 and the tanabata TIPS Bern became my most disliked character. After episode 5 most people probably view her as a villain type of character.

With 3 episodes to go I think it's far to early for Ryukishi to play this kind of card that reveals Bernkastel's true nature. There's too much time for a clear villain to be named in my opinion.

The troll may be that now everyone thinks she's evil...

Tjfarmer · 2009-08-28, 22:01

So its a double troll? Ryukishi trolled us into thinking that Berns evil, but the troll is that shes not?

luckyssol · 2009-08-28, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

So its a double troll? Ryukishi trolled us into thinking that Berns evil, but the troll is that shes not?

My theory I posted a little back explains this possibility. But as Jan-Poo mentioned it has some holes in it. Like the fact that Bern starts changing for the worse well before episode 5.

I guess it's possible that she's just a bitch and I should just stop thinking.

Archer · 2009-08-28, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssol

I agree, that is possible. It also could be the case that they are completely different entities and I would be fine with that.

However, there's one thing that cannot be disputed.

The Bernkastel from Higurashi has something to do with the Bernkastel from Umineko. Given the name Erika Furudo she chooses for her gameboard piece it is obvious that she is linked to the Bernkastel from Higurashi is some way. At the minimum she knows at least some of the story of what happened during the events of Higurashi.

No one's going to buy the 'she was just a trap for Higurashi players' without backing up your comment with some kind of theory as to why they are so similar.

Actually, you need to back up your comment with a theory to why you think they're related in the first place.

If you separate Umineko from Higurashi, you'd see that Bernkastel's character development makes sense. She's a witch that teamed up with Battler to destroy Beatrice. She used her piece when Battler wasn't going to do it himself. No contradictions in her character at any point in the story.

If you incorporate Higurashi into it, suddenly you have to make a whole lot of assumptions with nothing in Umineko to actually support it. You're basically looking into another work to answer questions that never would've popped up in the first place. It's completely ridiculous, and totally unfair to players unfamiliar with Higurashi.

luckyssol · 2009-08-28, 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer

Actually, you need to back up your comment with a theory to why you think they're related in the first place.

If you separate Umineko from Higurashi, you'd see that Bernkastel's character development makes sense. She's a witch that teamed up with Battler to destroy Beatrice. She used her piece when Battler wasn't going to do it himself. No contradictions in her character at any point in the story.

If you incorporate Higurashi into it, suddenly you have to make a whole lot of assumptions with nothing in Umineko to actually support it. You're basically looking into another work to answer questions that never would've popped up in the first place. It's completely ridiculous, and totally unfair to players unfamiliar with Higurashi.

A theory as to why they are related? That's too easy...

-Same name, Bernkastel
-Her comment, "What was it that I used to say... Mii-pa~ fighto~"
-Her choice of the name Erika Furudo as her main game piece
-Their appearances
-Her ability to travel through kakera. Also she uses the same name 'kakera' as Bern from Higurashi did

And the proof from episode 2:
-She comments she knows the culprit of Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni (Mabye she was just commenting on a novel by the same name?

)

As I said before, it's perfectly fine to believe that they are not related and that is very possible.

kite11 · 2009-08-28, 22:59

Spoiler for My Theories, I expect it to get shot down:

Battler, as Game Master, will throw in his own piece as a friend from 6 years ago. Why? I think someone influenced him to be such a thinker. (Kyrie doesn't work, cause Battler ran away.) At 12-13, kids are more influenced by friends than by adults. I don't think he was in touch with the family, and the grandparents are dead by 1986, so they can't be put on the board. And this friend has something to do with Battler's sin...

Bern slowly is losing it. Her calmness is breaking, cause she is acting as a little kid, who is slowly learning that everything might be her fault. The game would have been fine without her, or if she just kept watching.

Beato is either in a coma, death, or getting more pieces together. (I mean we saw Battler get revived.) Someone comment on this, but I think she went to get MARIA and possibly Eva-Beato to help/ get the siestas back. I honestly don't know what happened to MARIA, but she seems too important to be in just one episode.

I think at this point that this was planned by Beato and Kinzo. Bern and 34 were wrenches in the plan, but it seems like all this is to make Battler grow. Also, Kinzo has been too important to not be in the plan. I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Virgilia shows up (Battler's friend?) as another failsafe, like when Beato had Virgilia help Battler when he got stuck. Of course, having Battler dead was totally off the plan. 34 and Bern screwed up the plan to the point that Beato had to give Battler power, in order to equally with the witches, cause the trial basically showed that Battler was outmatched. When Battler was fighting Beato, I firmly believe she was holding back, the trial showing how easily a witch could beat a human. Case in point, Battler inherited Beato's titles, and used the golden truth, which Beato never used. This was another failsafe, even with Beato getting the kakera for Battler, which would have taken a long time to find. (Bern had to go through a few hundred for the riddle) So six years would not be unreasonable to find it.

I think that there are too many failsafes created for the game, to the point that Bern and 34's interference was planned to a certain degree. (Kinzo would know about Battler's birth, which was another failsafe created if all else failed, course, 34 and Bern ran with it.

Longer than I wanted, but it's just my thoughts. I'm sorry if it sounds too much like other people's theories. And in case you were wondering, I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make... Also, for Bern, it would be nice for her to be the same as the one from Higurashi, but that Bern had more tact. (putting away the kakera after Rika saw it and gomening. Course, there's no really point if she is or isn't, cause that only goes to speculation on her actions. Bern, if its the same one, really got cruel, but than, she has 34 as her "best friend", so its not unreasonable for her to get twisted. Course if Bern is one of the same, does the same run true for Okonogi?, which has probably been beaten to death.

Tyabann · 2009-08-28, 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer

Actually, you need to back up your comment with a theory to why you think they're related in the first place.

If you separate Umineko from Higurashi, you'd see that Bernkastel's character development makes sense. She's a witch that teamed up with Battler to destroy Beatrice. She used her piece when Battler wasn't going to do it himself. No contradictions in her character at any point in the story.

If you incorporate Higurashi into it, suddenly you have to make a whole lot of assumptions with nothing in Umineko to actually support it. You're basically looking into another work to answer questions that never would've popped up in the first place. It's completely ridiculous, and totally unfair to players unfamiliar with Higurashi.

This.

Umineko is not a sequel to Higurashi. Not directly.

So why should we assume the little shout-outs to it are anything more than fanservice?

momobunny · 2009-08-28, 23:24

Actually, Umineko's relation to Higurashi is still unknown. I STILL believe it's too soon to say that it's a direct sequel or not... but I don't think it's called When They Cry 3/4 for nothing...

Tyabann · 2009-08-28, 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Actually, Umineko's relation to Higurashi is still unknown. I STILL believe it's too soon to say that it's a direct sequel or not... but I don't think it's called When They Cry 3/4 for nothing...

A "direct sequel" would imply that it takes place after Higurashi and uses the same characters.

The only characters that are from Higurashi directly are... Okonogi and maybe Bern.

Sure, it's called "When They Cry 3/4", but is Final Fantasy II a sequel to Final Fantasy?

luckyssol · 2009-08-28, 23:29

Let's assume Umineko is completely seperate from Higurashi.

Then Bern and Lambda are just witches who came out of nowhere with no background story and have completely hijacked the game.

I guess this is possible.

kite11 · 2009-08-29, 00:42

What does Okonogi do anyway? I want to believe he is in there for more than just a higurashi connection.

luckyssol · 2009-08-29, 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by kite11

What does Okonogi do anyway? I want to believe he is in there for more than just a higurashi connection.

From TIPS:
Leader of the Ushiromiya Group... ...He was previously president of a foodstuff distribution company and had an intimate relationship with Hideyoshi's company.

He helps Ange excape from Kasumi but it's kind of unclear if he was on Ange or Kasumi's side.

Since he's from the 1998 world I don't think we'll hear from him again. He definately was not in episode 5 at all.

Tyabann · 2009-08-29, 01:03

Unless we go back to 1998 again... oh, god, I just got it.

What if, next Ep, we go to the 1998 of Ep5? Ange's Good End?

Wouldn't that be interesting.

Marion · 2009-08-29, 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Unless we go back to 1998 again... oh, god, I just got it.

What if, next Ep, we go to the 1998 of Ep5? Ange's Good End?

Wouldn't that be interesting.

Why to 1998? Technically they can just continue off in 1986 after Rokkenjima and Ange still gets a good end since her family returns. Although I don't know what they would do - when they get off the island Natsuhi probably just goes to jail and what not.

Tyabann · 2009-08-29, 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marion

Why to 1998? Technically they can just continue off in 1986 after Rokkenjima and Ange still gets a good end since her family returns. Although I don't know what they would do - when they get off the island Natsuhi probably just goes to jail and what not.

Because they need to do SOMETHING with Juuza. He's too interesting and mysterious to be unimportant.

And mostly so we can see how Ange's life has improved in contrast with ANGE's 1998.

2009-08-28, 23:24	Link #553
momobunny ◔ ◡ ◔ Artist Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ImaginaryLand Age: 34	Actually, Umineko's relation to Higurashi is still unknown. I STILL believe it's too soon to say that it's a direct sequel or not... but I don't think it's called When They Cry 3/4 for nothing... __________________

2009-08-28, 21:34	Link #543
Tyabann Homo Ludens Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Canada Age: 34	It's not that the Bernkastel from Higurashi and the Bernkastel from Umineko are different individuals... I doubt they are... it's that, given Rika's behavior and personality, a lot of people expected Bern to be of a similar alignment. She's not. And that's the whole trap with Bern.

2009-08-28, 21:55	Link #546
luckyssol Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009	My point is to keep thinking. After episode 4 and the tanabata TIPS Bern became my most disliked character. After episode 5 most people probably view her as a villain type of character. With 3 episodes to go I think it's far to early for Ryukishi to play this kind of card that reveals Bernkastel's true nature. There's too much time for a clear villain to be named in my opinion. The troll may be that now everyone thinks she's evil...

2009-08-28, 22:01	Link #547
Tjfarmer I'm almost there! Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Bay Area, California Age: 31	So its a double troll? Ryukishi trolled us into thinking that Berns evil, but the troll is that shes not?

2009-08-28, 22:59	Link #551
kite11 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009	Spoiler for My Theories, I expect it to get shot down: Battler, as Game Master, will throw in his own piece as a friend from 6 years ago. Why? I think someone influenced him to be such a thinker. (Kyrie doesn't work, cause Battler ran away.) At 12-13, kids are more influenced by friends than by adults. I don't think he was in touch with the family, and the grandparents are dead by 1986, so they can't be put on the board. And this friend has something to do with Battler's sin... Bern slowly is losing it. Her calmness is breaking, cause she is acting as a little kid, who is slowly learning that everything might be her fault. The game would have been fine without her, or if she just kept watching. Beato is either in a coma, death, or getting more pieces together. (I mean we saw Battler get revived.) Someone comment on this, but I think she went to get MARIA and possibly Eva-Beato to help/ get the siestas back. I honestly don't know what happened to MARIA, but she seems too important to be in just one episode. I think at this point that this was planned by Beato and Kinzo. Bern and 34 were wrenches in the plan, but it seems like all this is to make Battler grow. Also, Kinzo has been too important to not be in the plan. I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Virgilia shows up (Battler's friend?) as another failsafe, like when Beato had Virgilia help Battler when he got stuck. Of course, having Battler dead was totally off the plan. 34 and Bern screwed up the plan to the point that Beato had to give Battler power, in order to equally with the witches, cause the trial basically showed that Battler was outmatched. When Battler was fighting Beato, I firmly believe she was holding back, the trial showing how easily a witch could beat a human. Case in point, Battler inherited Beato's titles, and used the golden truth, which Beato never used. This was another failsafe, even with Beato getting the kakera for Battler, which would have taken a long time to find. (Bern had to go through a few hundred for the riddle) So six years would not be unreasonable to find it. I think that there are too many failsafes created for the game, to the point that Bern and 34's interference was planned to a certain degree. (Kinzo would know about Battler's birth, which was another failsafe created if all else failed, course, 34 and Bern ran with it. Longer than I wanted, but it's just my thoughts. I'm sorry if it sounds too much like other people's theories. And in case you were wondering, I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make... Also, for Bern, it would be nice for her to be the same as the one from Higurashi, but that Bern had more tact. (putting away the kakera after Rika saw it and gomening. Course, there's no really point if she is or isn't, cause that only goes to speculation on her actions. Bern, if its the same one, really got cruel, but than, she has 34 as her "best friend", so its not unreasonable for her to get twisted. Course if Bern is one of the same, does the same run true for Okonogi?, which has probably been beaten to death.

2009-08-28, 23:29	Link #555
luckyssol Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009	Let's assume Umineko is completely seperate from Higurashi. Then Bern and Lambda are just witches who came out of nowhere with no background story and have completely hijacked the game. I guess this is possible.

2009-08-29, 00:42	Link #556
kite11 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009	What does Okonogi do anyway? I want to believe he is in there for more than just a higurashi connection.

2009-08-29, 01:03	Link #558
Tyabann Homo Ludens Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Canada Age: 34	Unless we go back to 1998 again... oh, god, I just got it. What if, next Ep, we go to the 1998 of Ep5? Ange's Good End? Wouldn't that be interesting.