2009-10-06, 17:51 | Link #5761 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 40
|
its not so much a sense of justice, as it is that i find it sickening to see lelouch standing in a room full of brainwashed soldiers who all yell "all hail lelouch" and give him what looks disgustingly similar to a hitler salute (i wish i was kidding)
but thats actually putting it pretty nicely but my point about zero-requiem was basiclly this lelouch wants 3 things 1)stop shnizel 2)make the world a better place 3)die he COULD choose a path that gives him 1# and 2# but he wants all three so he comes up with zero-requiem to fill all three the problem is that insisting on a path that includes 3# causes him to make 1# harder to pull off (by fighting shnizel, AND the rest of the world at the same time) and 2# much more violent and bloody (the blood naturally, belongs to other people) its selfish and greedy
__________________
|
2009-10-06, 18:02 | Link #5762 | ||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
However, are we talking about amoral or immoral? Because yes, you can accuse him of the latter, but I think it's still debatable how wrong his deeds during Zero Requiem actually were, and whether all in all, he's not still one of the most moral character of the cast. Quote:
Even though it's still questionable whether Zero Requiem might not indeed have been the best option for the largest number of people. Still, Lelouch didn't really consider other options, and that's certainly a fault. Edit: So Lelouch is too selfish, and Schneizel too "impartial". We could throw them into a melting pot and-... oh, wait. That was Charles' idea. Let's try pizza instead.
__________________
|
||||
2009-10-06, 18:04 | Link #5763 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 40
|
what about him was likeable then ?
not memories of days gone by what did lelouch actually do during the entire last arc, that make him likeble because he does MUCH to make him dislikeble
__________________
|
2009-10-06, 18:08 | Link #5764 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
|
I'd pretty much lump #1 in with #2, and point out that if Lelouch wanted to get away with all his earlier shit without #3 then that'd be even more selfish and greedy.
The point of making everybody hate him wasn't just to distract them from hating other people; Lelouch being hated was also part of his punishment in itself. The thing is, throughout most of the series, Lelouch is a pretty hateable person. He lies, manipulates, blackmails, abandons, and all that other underhanded stuff. The fact that he managed not to be hated initially is only a testament to how well he can decieve/manipulate people: Zero: Requiem also served the purpose of a sort of 'confession' of just how hateful he really is. edit: lol, what was more likeable about Lelouch in the last arc? Well, personally I'd say his complete openness about being a bastard, as well as his acknowledgement that he deserved to die for it, are a couple things. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2009-10-06 at 18:25. Reason: shifting edit back |
2009-10-06, 18:09 | Link #5765 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Being awesome. Realizing Nunally can stand on her own two-... errr... doesn't need other people to depend on. Having cute talks with Suzaku. Sacrificing himself. Hell, I could even list "wearing his hat". This is purely subjective. @Sol: Hm, I don't really agree, especially when you compare him to other characters, and I think punishment is overrated and can indeed be a selfish concept, but... oh well. I should go study for my English test. xD
__________________
|
|
2009-10-06, 18:12 | Link #5766 | ||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 40
|
Quote:
he commits acts that are even WORSE then what he did before, while KNOWING them to be wrong and un-necessary its like feelings bad for stealing someone's purse without their knowledge and getting away with it so you walk up to them and hit them over the head with a baseball bat so they would hate you for it it doesnt add up @Sol Quote:
never found it a likable trait @nogi what does he DO that makes him likable sacrificing himself is hardly enough to balance all the other shit he does and i personally found his "cute talk" with suzaku repulsive when they get to the "rivers of blood" part massive brainwashing mass murder use of "we have reserves" tactics use of human shields vowing to spill rivers of blood
__________________
|
||
2009-10-06, 18:16 | Link #5767 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
|
Quote:
But now I really have to go and study. xD
__________________
|
|
2009-10-06, 18:19 | Link #5768 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 40
|
in the middle of the night ?
you've got more spirit then i other then that though you "disagree" with lelouch doing far worse things in the last arc then before ? turning people to slaves with geass active oppression and murder of anyone who objects to him treating his soldiers like worker ants he crosses quite a few lines
__________________
|
2009-10-06, 18:23 | Link #5769 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
|
Quote:
It is basically selfishness. Lelouch's desire to be punished became just as strong as his desire for a better world. I think this is reasonable though; Lelouch had caused enough tragedies that simply believing he could continue to hope for a better world without accepting the consequences was no longer possible. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2009-10-06 at 18:25. Reason: fuck I post slow: shifting my edit back |
|
2009-10-06, 18:26 | Link #5770 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 40
|
the problem is that you make sure they hate you by HURTING THEM FARTHER
he does WORSE things "during" his atonement then the actual stuff he is atoning FOR
__________________
|
2009-10-06, 18:29 | Link #5772 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 40
|
Quote:
you hurt someone without them knowing it was you you feel guilty so instead of trying to apologize (in lelouch's case, spend his life as emperor improving the world) you do something WORSE to them to make them hate you that does not compute
__________________
|
|
2009-10-06, 18:47 | Link #5773 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
|
Quote:
It's not selfishness it's nothing more than insanity. |
|
2009-10-06, 22:16 | Link #5774 |
Senior Member
|
So what's your point. That Lelouch was selfish, because he got to stage Zero Requiem, and die, while others got to hate the britannian empire? Lelouch has clearly said that, life before geass was not worth living. He was a highly intelligent young man, who chose to do something big after getting his geass. Lulu with his geass was very confident, and even though at times he was close to give up, he still came back. All that for what? Lelouch chose to make a better world for his sister, but in the end chose to make it better for everyone. So what is the difference between Lelouch, and Shnizel? Lelouch wanted to make it easier for everyone else to recognize the true hero, than people who had both sides. Because of this there was Britannians and Elevens, who were different. He chose to merge this two and liberate Japan. For that to happen, he became like Hitler in his ways, and became the thing everyone hated. Death was a necessity, and not a luxury for him. He had to die, to bring a masked Zero in who did not have an identity to bring justice. Hence, justice is blind. Zero is masked. Discrimination shall not exist.
Another way of looking into this is that everyone in the royal family had a different outlook, and many of them were murderers including Charles, Shnizel, Cornelia, and Lelouch. You can have these people in authoritarian figures, but they had their own ways, and came at a cost. Lelouch killed Charles, took over, became evil, and let that evil be destroyed by that messiah, Zero, the masked one without a face. The writers made it a good ending, and let Lelouch leave of with a good note. He may have been a villain to britannians and elevens, but he chose to do something that did bring a better future to Japanese. He was about 18 to 19 when he died. Poor guy had a really short life. What teenager does that for the sake of the world? Lelouch does. |
2009-10-06, 22:52 | Link #5775 |
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
|
The problem with Zero Requiem is that ultimately it is based on lies and deception. Lelouch never addressed the core problems as that would've taken his entire life, working to achieve that ideal world and never see it come to fruition simply because it is impossible is just not his cup of tea. He'd rather stage a grand plot and play everybody for fools then leave it up to them. I don't know what kind of a future Ougi would forge but I wouldn't want anything to do with it.
Besides, when an empire falls another shall take its place. Whether that superpower focuses on military or economic dominance is irrelevant, both go hand in hand. There will always be discrimination, famine, war and terrorism, etc.
__________________
|
2009-10-06, 23:06 | Link #5776 |
Senior Member
|
Well said, "Revolutionist". That's why we have Suzaku, the new Zero, who will live long enough to try his best in solving those problems. Shnizel will also follow him, and be the brain for Black Knights. As for Lelouch, he wanted to simplify the whole thing by painting the picture in black and white, so naive and intelligent citizen can recognize the same person to be the hero, instead of having many hero's and villain's who would confuse citizens to pick sides. Lelouch made it much more simpler, by naming himself the villain, so that a messiah like Zero can exist, and be universally recognized. A very big decision for a teenager.
|
2009-10-06, 23:34 | Link #5777 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
|
Quote:
He took for granted his men, they rebelled. He saw Rolo as a pawn, Rolo killed Shirley. The atrocities Lelouch commited, all revealed to the Black Knights. I mean they had all this setup for Lelouch to figure out a better way to accomplish things, but Okouchi and Taniguchi didn't do it simply because having Lelouch ham it up was far more important than actual developing the character and get across a good message. |
|
2009-10-06, 23:44 | Link #5778 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
|
|
2009-10-07, 01:16 | Link #5779 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
|
|
2009-10-07, 02:29 | Link #5780 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: United States--- California
|
If it wasn't for Schneizel then lelouch might have not been in this mess. The Euphy incident sure bit him in the rear. Ohgi don't like seeing that name he was really incompatent. He should have been punished too.
|
|
|