Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Character Creation and Discussion (second reincarnation)

[tshouryuu]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Yup plasmid injection is DNA grafting, modeled after bacteria.

I think Ginga became the replacement for the original 13, since the dormant numbers' tanks are shown to have gone all the way into the 20s and beyond.

Her taking that serial might indicate that the original 13 had been lost by the time of StrikerS, but that's my take on the subject, backed up by FlameS' idea for Trieze, and I now molded her into an OC in her own right.

I was thinking DNA grafting using virii to infect the cells and replacing the DNA with the modified one.

As for dormant numbers in the tanks, maybe, maybe not but if we're thinking of the same tanks, those might not be numbers but captured people instead.

[Kyral]

*switchs on megaphone*

*takes a deep breath*

LIINGO SAIKO~!!!!

that's all...

Memories of Blood and Sorrow
Part 8: Friends and Enemies

Spoiler:

[Vedir, southern continent] [August, MC 076]

The diagnosis was the same as always: Some scratches and bruises, but nothing really serious. The only real painful thing was the aching in Elric's right shoulder and arm. He still remembered the feeling as he had directly blocked the claw of the Stalker, a feeling like a sledgehammer smashing down on him. Elric was told he should rest his right arm for a little while.

Now with the barrier gone the viewing spot was bathed in normal sunlight. With a short glance at the vast blue sky, Elric found it hard to believe that this was the eerie battlefield from only half an hour ago, with only the scratches on the ground and the carcass of the Mantis Stalker revealing what had happened here.

In death, the Stalker's camouflaged appearance had taken its natural color. A grey/bluish skin covered the creature, with dark grey chitinous carapace and claws. Slightly green tendrils dangled to the ground and its black eyes dull, forever staring into the distance.

Elric averted his gaze from the carcass and continued his way to one of the benches near the edge of the plateau. On his way he passed a few members of the team securing the site and recognized the mage that gave him the report at the beginning.

"Good work."

"Thank you, Sir."

Finally he stopped beside a bench and looked down at the small Lieutenant sitting there.

Rinya stared at the canyon in thoughts, the only thing that indicated that she was in battle only moments ago was her left arm supported by a sling. Luckily her Knight Armor had absorbed most of the damage as the dead Stalker buried her with its dead weight. Like Elric, she was in her regular uniform again.

"You are alright?" Elric asked.

"Ah." Rinya looked up to him, only now noticing his presence. She avoided his gaze and looked back to the canyon. "Sorry. I was ignoring my orders and acted on my own."

"Yes, you did."

She chuckled humorlessly. "Well… So I guess you can relieve me now from my post. With this TSAB regulation BS-Idontknow."

"Oh, that." Now it was up to him to avert his gaze. "That… well… that was a lie."

"Huh?" Rinya looked up in surprise.

"Err… I thought that may help you stay in line a little. Think about it. Did you really believe a member of a solo/behind-enemy-lines unit would be able to simply relieve officers from their duty? We are not even fully trusted by some in high-command and- Ugh!"

Elric tumbled a little as Rinya punched him into the side with her unhurt arm.

"I don't believe this! Here I was worrying what would happen with me now and you come and tell me it was a lie!?"

Elric clutched his side, the new pain accumulated with the pain he already felt in his arm and the exhaustion he felt.
All combined made Elric losing his cool. "What!? Do you really think I didn't expect how you will react? I knew you were going to throw all caution away and simply storm at the thing without a second thought."

"And it was the right thing to do! This thing was wiping the floor with you, got that in that thick rule loving skull of yours!?" Rinya said now really angry.

Elric felt like liquid fire was running through his veins now, furious he glared at Rinya. "I don't want to hear that from some hot-headed idiotic suicide mage! What great plan of attack was that anyway!? Do you have a freaking idea how I felt seeing you crashing into this damn monster and getting buried by it!?"

"Shut up and stop sounding like you were worried about me!" she shouted at him.

"I was worried about you!" he shouted back.

"Eh?"

Anger changed to astonishment and moments went past with Rinya staring at Elric. Then she looked away, her cheeks taking the color of bright pink.

"So you… really were worried about me?" she asked.

Elric never heard her voice sounding so shy and vulnerable before.

"Crap! What's with the mood here!?" Elric thought, finding himself suddenly in a situation he had grown unfamiliar with. He looked away, slightly confused and not knowing what to do.

"Chance!"

"Huh? What- Argh!" Elric nearly went down on his knees as another blow hit his side again.
Besides him, Rinya was stretching her back.

"Ah~! I feel better now!" she said with a big smile on her face.

"Glad… to hear that." Elric pressed the words through his clenched teeth.

"Alright, you have a point." Rinya admitted seriously, she hung her head and Elric was not able to read her expression, as her hair covered her face. Elric wanted to say something, but Rinya shaking her head, made him close his mouth again. "You see, it was of course not the first time I was told that."

With a humorless smile, she looked up to him. "Hot-headed, huh? My father told me that after I joined the TSAB, after that it was my drill instructor and some of the guys I trained with. 'You need to calm down.', 'Watch where you are flying, idiot.', 'Do you even try not to mess up?' and…"

Suddenly she interrupted herself and shook her head a little. "Ah, what I'm blabbering about?" She stood up, faced Elric and smiled sheepishly. "It's not that telling you, what people said to me would solve the problem we two faced right now."

Elric looked at her. It seemed there was more to Rinya Shuri A'Kalash then he initially thought.
He shrugged. "I don't see much of a problem. If I take your way of doing things more into consideration next time I'm planning something, I'm sure we can be a much more effective fighting force."

Rinya's eyes widened a bit and she nodded. "Thank you."

"You're welcome." Elric said while turning towards the Stalkers carcass. "I guess we all have our own problems and quirks, but that’s nothing we should be ashamed of, right? Well, let's go."

He took a step but was soon stopped by the feeling of something pulling slightly on his sleeve.

Mildly surprised he turned around again. Rinya was still holding his sleeve, her face lowered. "We…" she started hesitantly in a low voice. "We are still friends, right?"

Starting to smile slightly, Elric bowed his head a bit. "Of course we are."

Rinya let go of Elric's sleeve and seemed to be in deep thought for a short moment. But then a big smile bloomed in her face. "Of course." She nodded. "We are still friends." She chuckled. "Thank you, Elric."

"Sure, you're welcome, Shu-" he stopped. "Elric?" "You're welcome, Rinya." He corrected himself a little awkwardly, not too sure what to do with the sudden familiarity.

"Yeah." She agreed happily and followed Elric who was still a little confused.

Another bureau mage awaited them at the Mentis Stalker carcass. "Sir, Ma'am." He saluted.

Elric and Rinya returned the salute. "Everything ready to the transport the specimen, Sergeant?" Elric asked.

"Yes, Sir! Auriga's position was acknowledged. We are ready to transport you and the specimen to the Auriga on demand."

"Please do."

"If you would stand close to the specimen, Sir? Ma'am?"

As both mages stood aside the dead Mantis Stalker, Rinya couldn't help but to place her hand on its segmented back carapace. The surface of the armor plate was cold and smooth. Rinya also realized that the Stalker had absolutely no recognizable smell.

"We are ready, Sir." The mage from before said, after he and three of his colleagues had finished placing themselves around Elric, Rinya and the carcass.

"Begin." Elric ordered.

"Yes, Sir." Nearly simultaneous, the four mages raised their Devices and magical energy engulfed the operatives. The light grew brighter and brighter and with a blinding flash they disappeared.

The bureau mage staggered for a moment. "Ok, what the hell just happened?" he asked.

==========

Elric blinked, he had tears in his eyes.

He recalled the bright flash of light. This was no normal side effect of teleport magic. Something went wrong.

Wind was ragging his hair and his vision returned.

This was definitely not the Auriga.

"Shuri?" He looked around, but soon realized that he was alone.

At least the landscape was familiar. He was still somewhere on Vedir, but the sky was dark and Elric asked himself how much time had passed.

<Shuri respond.> He was sending telepathically, but nothing answered.

It was like being in a…

"A Barrier… Carnage!"

[Activation.]

Back in full Barrier Jacket, Elric took a lower stance, ready to defend against any attack.

"Oh? You are a pretty careful one."

Elric quickly jumped around as he heard the voice behind him.

The man sitting on a nearby rock smiled at him as he eyed Elric like a spider would eye a fly in its net. "I take it that you are ready to fight, Special Operative-kun?"

[tshouryuu]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Weren't you the one who said they were part of his army? Nevermind he never showed any ambition to create a grand Cyborg army.

Sure, sure shoot down my ideas for fiction.... Q_Q

Jail: And as my first act with this new technology, I will create a grand cyborg army to counter the increasing threats of the TSAB.

[Keroko]

Jail channeling Palpatine, now there's a scary thought.

It can still work though, just some minor tweaks here and there. For example, scrap the whole '500 to 1' deal, and make the creation of 17, 14's idea. She's in charge of the whole complex, so why not have her go 'hmm, maybe I should try creating another cyborg of the Saint King's data and see how that turns out...'

[Outlaender]

I haven't taken a look at official sources lately, regarding the whole IS, RS
thing, but I've been thinking over the whole Index/MSLN xover idea, and this
ties in somewhat. My idea was, that psychic powers could be seen as IS, and
direct manipulation/application of physical laws. Magic, and thus RS, are a direct
manipulation of the "information", of the bits and bytes as it were of reality.
To put it another way- reality is the GUI, and Magic, is the machine language, or console scripts. Did that make any sense to anyone else?
I know the concepts I'm trying to express, but I'm not sure about how to go about explaining it.

In the end, IS would be more instinctive, brain processed, while RS (and magic as a whole) would be linker core dependent, for the interface with greater reality.

Okay, I'll be quiet now.

[stormturmoil]

more crack snippet madness from me...(slightly inspired by Tshuryuu's ideas)

apologies to owning Authors for use of concepts, events or Ideas.

for those not in the know, David 'Eerie' Brown is my Character, now slightly modifed to also be a Shooting arts originator/user and onetime teacher of Subaru and Ginga for purposes of this snippet. also, minor Device/power alters, modded profile up later on.

Section 13 is David's department, basically the Bureau's cold-case and X-files section, hence David's 'eerie' nickname.

Spoiler for Training days again:

“ Did I just hear you right?”

“ Your profile says you’re stubborn, not deaf, Brown.”

“ Stubborn, not crazy. Just why would anyone in their right mind suggest Me for this?…or was it someone in their right mind…”

“ I admit you may have something of a point there…but look, do I have to spell it out for you? You’re self-reliant, you’re reasonably smart, and you’ve got the ability. For pity’s sake you’ve actually done this before, unlike a lot of the other types we’re trying to dragoon into it…”

“ There’s a difference between teaching a few Martial arts moves to a couple of kids who want to learn and teaching pretty much everything to a bunch of brain-blank Cyborgs…and if you recall I wasn’t alone that time either…”

“The point stands you’ve got virtually the only relevant experience in the whole damned Bureau and what’s more you are one of the few, the very few, who we can leave alone with these girls without worrying about it…”

“Oh really?” David shot back suggestively.

“ Stop that. You know what I mean…these Girls are combat Cyborgs who don’t know their own strength…I believe you have a few things to say about that yourself…but seriously, you’re stronger than they are…they can’t even touch you…”

“Unless I let them…”

“ I said stop that. Look, I have it on good authority that you are potentially one of the best candidates for this, and she Specifically stated you’d try that tack to get out of it. She also said that it wasn’t an issue, and I trust her…so turn it off!”

“ Dagnabbit. I was having enough trouble with the damned backlog, without this…and then there’s the Three Rivers GeoNodal Station Raid I have to research for General Roland…and the Reports on the Uminari City Drone incursions…look, why does it have to be now?”

"Because we just happen to have a large group of directionless Combat Cyborgs who need teaching now…”

“ You mean babysitting…or even nursemaiding…” David complained, but he sighed with resignation… “When do I start?”

“ Right now” Hayate said” Send ‘em in!” she shouted through the not quite open door of the Section 13 office.

Moments later, half a dozen girls of varying appearances and apparent ages piled in the door in various manners.

“ This is Quindi, Sedi, Siotto , Annove, Vendi, and Yun…”

“Oh good grief…Remind me…how did I end up on your hatemail list again?”

“Blame Fate…”

“I should have known…”

and on another note (and explaining one of those events referred to):

Spoiler for meet the family...:

“ Takamachi, I’ll say it right now, Your Family frightens me…”

“ And you know this how?” The redhead of the pair said, in the same casual tone of voice others might use issue threats of impending death and pain…

“ Do I have to explain? You read the preliminary Uminari drone incursion reports, didn’t you?”

Nanoha nodded. Keroko (who never read paperwork at all if she could help it) rounded on her.

“What does he mean, Uminari city Drone incursions?”

“ It seems Jail or some of his minions are not above attempting personal reprisals…” Nanoha carefully answered.

Keroko suddenly grabbed her sister’s collar and yelled in her face, a move any other sane person on the base would never even contemplate attempting.

“ And we weren’t told this!?”

“We were involved in a pitched battle at the time…he was already on Earth. They vectored him over to it…and, well…” Nanoha stumbled over the explanation.

“ What she’s trying to say is that there was damn little needed to be done when I got there…Of the hundred or so low-end Gadget Drones that had been dispatched, the vast majority had already been reduced to scrap metal…” David explained. “ And as if that wasn’t enough to scare me, your damn sister tried to stick a Tanto in my Neck…”

There was a pair of relieved sighs from both of the Takamachi’s…though David had the eerie feeling it was not for the reason most would imagine.

“ Thank god for that…” Nanoha

“ Yeah…I thought Miyuki was never going to get over crushing on Kyouya, even after Shinobu started making her presence more felt…” Keroko Smirked…

“ Hello! This is the woman who tried to stick a knife in my Neck!”

“ That means she likes you” Nanoha dismissed.

“ Yeah, with guys she doesn’t like, she tends to stick the knife in somewhere a bit more…fundamental…” Keroko explained.

Inexplicably, every male in the cafeteria suddenly crossed their legs.


“So…” David asked, “ What’s this Ocean’s spray Onsen thing she mentioned?”

Nanoha stared…Keroko sprayed one wall of the cafeteria with her drink…

“ Was it something I said?”

“Talk. For your life.” Keroko threatened, once she got her breath back “ just when and how did she mention this to you?”

“ She asked if I’d like to go. I had no idea what it was, so I said I’d get back to her; I figured you two’d know…why, was that wrong?”

David didn’t get an answer…exactly. What he got was two riotous bouts of laughter. In good humour, he waited till the belly laughs died down a bit…

“ What it means…” Nanoha attempted to explain subtly and tactfully…until Keroko interrupted.

“ What it means is that Miyuki is coming on to you…”

“ Oh great…why do I seem to keep attracting Dangerous Women…”

enjoy...

[NorthernFallout]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Well, basic measuring of a mage's strength can be done simply by measuring the energy levels of a core, and the rest of the 'official' rank is simply determined by competence. So it would be very much possible -in fact, logical- for her to have a rank.

Oh, right. That completely flew past me...well, that gives me an additional scene to determine that, eh?

[Ryand-Smith]

Originally Posted by tshouryuu

I haven't been posting much so here's a small post. I'm going to add in some more later .... if I can some suitable pics

Spoiler for Combat Cyborg 17:

Ciasette (Variation of the number, Seventeen)

Role: High-defense hand-to-hand combat-type
Position: Spear Head Aggressor
Equipment: AMF Generator, Blast Knuckles, Drone Commander
Aerial Capacities: Available
Inherent Skill: Blaster Wave
Rare Skill: Holy Armour

The only "success" of Jail Scaglietti's experiments to gain control of the rare skill of the Santk Kaiser after her capture during MCY0075. After obtaining DNA samples, Jail decided against destroying Quottordi (Cyborg 14) who he had deem a failure and instead took her to one of his remote facilities and left her in charge of this experiment. Despite his defeat and subsequent capture, a loyal Quottordi laid low and quietly continued the experiment.


Of the 500 second generation clones of the now Takamachi Vivio, only 137 survived accelerated growth to maturity. Out of those, only 17 retained some version of the rare skill and only 1 survive cyborgnization. Deeming this a success, Quottordi decided to name the survivor Ciasette. Although she survived, she was physically weak and it was only after 3 years that this problem was remedied.


Currently she is undergoing extensive upgrades to her cybernetics before beginning her first mission: Rescue Jail Scaglietti and the rest of her loyal sisters.

Powers

Inherent Skill~Blaster Wave: The ability to focus large amounts of mana/energy quickly in her Inherent Equipment in order to discharge a concentrated blast of fire/energy at point blank range. Usually used when she managed to grab hold of an opponent. Her preferred target is the opponent's neck.

Inherent Equipment~Blast Knuckles: A pair of gauntlets specially designed for Ciasette that take advantage of her IS. This aids Ciasette in energy gathering and storage, allowing her to use her IS with little delay or charge time. Developed by Quottordi using Nove's Gun Arm, Subaru's Revolver Knuckle and the Belka cartridge system as a basis.

Inherent Equipment~AMF Generator: As the name state, it is a generator that creates an Anti Magilink Field that runs on a power source independent of the Combat Cyborg. This allows the cyborgs to have the advantage of AMF without the need for drones. All cyborgs equipped with this are proficient in using magic inside the field. This is a small module attached to the Drone Commander.

Inherent Equipment~Drone Commander: A thin armour system for the combat cyborgs that allows direct telepathic control over drones. While this is its main function, it adds a bit of minor firepower to the Combat cyborgs, making them more deadly. Designed by Quottordi as additional standard equipment by scrapping out a standard drone and working its reminding pieces into armour and weapons.

Rare Skill~Holy Armour: A weaker derivation of the Rare Skill - Armour of the Sankt Kaiser. This is an automatic defense that reduces the damage of all incoming attacks.

Other Notes

Many part of her body internally have been enhanced with cybernetic parts and her skeletal structure has been greatly strengthen. Also, under her skin is a thin, highly flexible material that acts like armour weave which is her last line of defense against injuries that would otherwise cripple or outright kill her. However, While the material is flexible, it still reduces her cyborgs reflexes by a bit.

So its Mass Production VivoArmy, strong but not KAISER CHAN strong, I like this, would she happen to have shields as common tools or more like DIVINE BUSTER 10 damage sort of natural strength?

[MeisterBabylon]

I'm basically in assault range of several tutorials, so I'll be firing from the hip at short posts for now. Fic reviews later...

Originally Posted by tshouryuu

I was thinking DNA grafting using virii to infect the cells and replacing the DNA with the modified one.

As for dormant numbers in the tanks, maybe, maybe not but if we're thinking of the same tanks, those might not be numbers but captured people instead.

Then we must hope that IS don't occupy the same gene locii, otherwise the original IS of the person is going to get disrupted/overwritten. The fact that 1 IS per Number seem to hint that IS only function in 1 gene locii. Placing the gene elsewhere might cause frameshift errors and severely fuck up the product...

Basically, 14 is going to have to study the entire genome carefully and insert the gene where a) it's gonna be found and read properly and b) where it doesn't shift the reading frames of the other genes unevenly and screw the whole person over. Not that its impossible, just letting you know what you are getting yourself into...

Plasmids avoid this problem by inserting whole self-contained rings of DNA into the person, like how bacteria trade drug resistance with one another with RNA plasmids. However, in a normal person these rings won't be read but will be instead destroyed. The cyborgs can be equipped artificially with reading mechanisms that decipher the rings and translate it to power. However, the plasmids cannot be regenerated or replicated, and hence burn out quickly in minutes to hours depending on durability.

Take whichever one you wish, I just like my DNA plasmids better.


The tanks were numbered, unlike Megane's, so that rules out captured people...

Originally Posted by Outlaender

I haven't taken a look at official sources lately, regarding the whole IS, RS
thing, but I've been thinking over the whole Index/MSLN xover idea, and this
ties in somewhat. My idea was, that psychic powers could be seen as IS, and
direct manipulation/application of physical laws. Magic, and thus RS, are a direct
manipulation of the "information", of the bits and bytes as it were of reality.
To put it another way- reality is the GUI, and Magic, is the machine language, or console scripts. Did that make any sense to anyone else?
I know the concepts I'm trying to express, but I'm not sure about how to go about explaining it.

In the end, IS would be more instinctive, brain processed, while RS (and magic as a whole) would be linker core dependent, for the interface with greater reality.

Okay, I'll be quiet now.

Mine's much simpler. IS/RS = Esper abilities, while magic = magic.

Notice how all the restrictions fit, since Espers of Toumaverse are essentially 1 trick ponies (like the Skilled of Nanoverse), save L4 and L5 espers who discover how to apply their IS/RS in special ways allowing them to gain additional abilities. Maybe the Numbers are L3 espers, and in time when they learn to add more function to their IS, Level Up.

I insist that the esper Cirriculum contains hidden contaminants that force rejection of magic so that mages are kept out or are converted to espers, however weak. This contamination and active mistrust between Skilled Neutrals (non-magical folk with IS/RS) and Convocators (magical folk) however does not exist in Nanoverse, and hence why IS/RS can coexist with magic in Nanoverse but not Toumaverse.

Other than that, I too believe analytically that reality is made up of information and both magic and Skills interfere with reality by adding certain non-naturally occuring "scripts". The only difference between magic and Skills is then the origin of the power; magic inserts the program via mana and the Linker Core, while Skills function via the mind and directly replaces reality (AKA the Shrodinger's Cat) with their own delusion, converting their delusion into reality to the others. Imagine Breaker then works on both by blocking the fundamental impetus between both magic and Skills, will projection on the user AKA his imagination.

Scary stuff, cos Touma can even cancel 6-bit Starlight Breaker ~Full Burst Mode~ that Nanoha may never even be capable of casting without killing herself.


This possibly explains his harem power too, for he subtly cancels a girl's will to resist him... <_<

[JamesEdwards]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Mine's much simpler. IS/RS = Esper abilities, while magic = magic.

Notice how all the restrictions fit, since Espers of Toumaverse are essentially 1 trick ponies (like the Skilled of Nanoverse), save L4 and L5 espers who discover how to apply their IS/RS in special ways allowing them to gain additional abilities. Maybe the Numbers are L3 espers, and in time when they learn to add more function to their IS, Level Up.

I insist that the esper Cirriculum contains hidden contaminants that force rejection of magic so that mages are kept out or are converted to espers, however weak. This contamination and active mistrust between Skilled Neutrals (non-magical folk with IS/RS) and Convocators (magical folk) however does not exist in Nanoverse, and hence why IS/RS can coexist with magic in Nanoverse but not Toumaverse.

Other than that, I too believe analytically that reality is made up of information and both magic and Skills interfere with reality by adding certain non-naturally occuring "scripts". The only difference between magic and Skills is then the origin of the power; magic inserts the program via mana and the Linker Core, while Skills function via the mind and directly replaces reality (AKA the Shrodinger's Cat) with their own delusion, converting their delusion into reality to the others. Imagine Breaker then works on both by blocking the fundamental impetus between both magic and Skills, will projection on the user.

Scary stuff, cos Touma can even cancel 6-bit Starlight Breaker ~Full Burst Mode~ that Nanoha may never even be capable of casting without killing herself.

*Pokes his head out from the LURK!*

Well, bravo, Meister, you actually managed to illustrate something reasonable for a change. Now, just to be a Joker, I am going to throw a monkey wrench into that theory:

Nanoha's Beamspam. The moment the beamspam leaves Raising Heart and becomes Beamspam! -- is that still MAGIC? Or has it become SCIENCE?

A gun you know is just SCIENCE, controlled explosion, throwing a projectile real fast and accurately through a barrel at a target. A punch can also be considered in terms of SCIENCE, as it's just muscles and tendons, chemical reactions, errata that allows the human body to move like so.

Touma obviously should not be able to stop bullets, and hell, his arm was freaking chopped off by Izzard and then replaced by a giant dragon beast thingie because of Izzard's fear.

Thus, can Touma really dispell a Divine Buster beam? Is it a MAGICAL particle beam of BEFRIENDING DOOM? Or is it a SCIENTIFIC particle beam, that is atomic particles, condensed, and being accelerated rapidly into a singular direction?

Just a thought.

*Sinks back into the LURK!*

[MeisterBabylon]

I am Meister Babylon. I strike as and when, and how, I wish.

I don't see the difference. It's still magic isn't it? It's powered by mana and the entire blast is still a manifestation of her will.

As for physics... Touma canceled the Railgun, and the forums are still bewildered, even I'm puzzled, over how the fuck he did it. So that alone blows a hole in your objection even if Starlight Breaker became an autonomous body operating under Newtonian physics.

[tshouryuu]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Jail channeling Palpatine, now there's a scary thought.

It can still work though, just some minor tweaks here and there. For example, scrap the whole '500 to 1' deal, and make the creation of 17, 14's idea. She's in charge of the whole complex, so why not have her go 'hmm, maybe I should try creating another cyborg of the Saint King's data and see how that turns out...'

How about we compromise some? I'm tweak it such that the 500 to 1 becomes something like number 14 took more than 300 tries (damn those micro Spartans blocking successful tissue culture) to get actual cloning to work and nearly 500 to finally succeed in altering the cloned cells. This takes her around 2 years.

Originally Posted by Outlaender

I haven't taken a look at official sources lately, regarding the whole IS, RS
thing, but I've been thinking over the whole Index/MSLN xover idea, and this
ties in somewhat. My idea was, that psychic powers could be seen as IS, and
direct manipulation/application of physical laws. Magic, and thus RS, are a direct
manipulation of the "information", of the bits and bytes as it were of reality.
To put it another way- reality is the GUI, and Magic, is the machine language, or console scripts. Did that make any sense to anyone else?
I know the concepts I'm trying to express, but I'm not sure about how to go about explaining it.

In the end, IS would be more instinctive, brain processed, while RS (and magic as a whole) would be linker core dependent, for the interface with greater reality.

Okay, I'll be quiet now.

Interesting idea, you could develop this further.

Originally Posted by stormturmoil

more crack snippet madness from me...(slightly inspired by Tshuryuu's ideas)

apologies to owning Authors for use of concepts, events or Ideas.

for those not in the know, David 'Eerie' Brown is my Character, now slightly modifed to also be a Shooting arts originator/user and onetime teacher of Subaru and Ginga for purposes of this snippet. also, minor Device/power alters, modded profile up later on.

Section 13 is David's department, basically the Bureau's cold-case and X-files section, hence David's 'eerie' nickname.

Spoiler for Training days again:

“ Did I just hear you right?”

“ Your profile says you’re stubborn, not deaf, Brown.”

“ Stubborn, not crazy. Just why would anyone in their right mind suggest Me for this?…or was it someone in their right mind…”

“ I admit you may have something of a point there…but look, do I have to spell it out for you? You’re self-reliant, you’re reasonably smart, and you’ve got the ability. For pity’s sake you’ve actually done this before, unlike a lot of the other types we’re trying to dragoon into it…”

“ There’s a difference between teaching a few Martial arts moves to a couple of kids who want to learn and teaching pretty much everything to a bunch of brain-blank Cyborgs…and if you recall I wasn’t alone that time either…”

“The point stands you’ve got virtually the only relevant experience in the whole damned Bureau and what’s more you are one of the few, the very few, who we can leave alone with these girls without worrying about it…”

“Oh really?” David shot back suggestively.

“ Stop that. You know what I mean…these Girls are combat Cyborgs who don’t know their own strength…I believe you have a few things to say about that yourself…but seriously, you’re stronger than they are…they can’t even touch you…”

“Unless I let them…”

“ I said stop that. Look, I have it on good authority that you are potentially one of the best candidates for this, and she Specifically stated you’d try that tack to get out of it. She also said that it wasn’t an issue, and I trust her…so turn it off!”

“ Dagnabbit. I was having enough trouble with the damned backlog, without this…and then there’s the Three Rivers GeoNodal Station Raid I have to research for General Roland…and the Reports on the Uminari City Drone incursions…look, why does it have to be now?”

"Because we just happen to have a large group of directionless Combat Cyborgs who need teaching now…”

“ You mean babysitting…or even nursemaiding…” David complained, but he sighed with resignation… “When do I start?”

“ Right now” Hayate said” Send ‘em in!” she shouted through the not quite open door of the Section 13 office.

Moments later, half a dozen girls of varying appearances and apparent ages piled in the door in various manners.

“ This is Quindi, Sedi, Siotto , Annove, Vendi, and Yun…”

“Oh good grief…Remind me…how did I end up on your hatemail list again?”

“Blame Fate…”

“I should have known…”

and on another note (and explaining one of those events referred to):

Spoiler for meet the family...:

“ Takamachi, I’ll say it right now, Your Family frightens me…”

“ And you know this how?” The redhead of the pair said, in the same casual tone of voice others might use issue threats of impending death and pain…

“ Do I have to explain? You read the preliminary Uminari drone incursion reports, didn’t you?”

Nanoha nodded. Keroko (who never read paperwork at all if she could help it) rounded on her.

“What does he mean, Uminari city Drone incursions?”

“ It seems Jail or some of his minions are not above attempting personal reprisals…” Nanoha carefully answered.

Keroko suddenly grabbed her sister’s collar and yelled in her face, a move any other sane person on the base would never even contemplate attempting.

“ And we weren’t told this!?”

“We were involved in a pitched battle at the time…he was already on Earth. They vectored him over to it…and, well…” Nanoha stumbled over the explanation.

“ What she’s trying to say is that there was damn little needed to be done when I got there…Of the hundred or so low-end Gadget Drones that had been dispatched, the vast majority had already been reduced to scrap metal…” David explained. “ And as if that wasn’t enough to scare me, your damn sister tried to stick a Tanto in my Neck…”

There was a pair of relieved sighs from both of the Takamachi’s…though David had the eerie feeling it was not for the reason most would imagine.

“ Thank god for that…” Nanoha

“ Yeah…I thought Miyuki was never going to get over crushing on Kyouya, even after Shinobu started making her presence more felt…” Keroko Smirked…

“ Hello! This is the woman who tried to stick a knife in my Neck!”

“ That means she likes you” Nanoha dismissed.

“ Yeah, with guys she doesn’t like, she tends to stick the knife in somewhere a bit more…fundamental…” Keroko explained.

Inexplicably, every male in the cafeteria suddenly crossed their legs.


“So…” David asked, “ What’s this Ocean’s spray Onsen thing she mentioned?”

Nanoha stared…Keroko sprayed one wall of the cafeteria with her drink…

“ Was it something I said?”

“Talk. For your life.” Keroko threatened, once she got her breath back “ just when and how did she mention this to you?”

“ She asked if I’d like to go. I had no idea what it was, so I said I’d get back to her; I figured you two’d know…why, was that wrong?”

David didn’t get an answer…exactly. What he got was two riotous bouts of laughter. In good humour, he waited till the belly laughs died down a bit…

“ What it means…” Nanoha attempted to explain subtly and tactfully…until Keroko interrupted.

“ What it means is that Miyuki is coming on to you…”

“ Oh great…why do I seem to keep attracting Dangerous Women…”

enjoy...

Nice. Btw
1) I'm Tshouryuu not tshuryuu... you said it like t-shu-ryuu... tissue dragon...
I'm not a tissue dragon :flail:
2)Mind if i steal those cyborg names? Its a bit better than what I have currently.

Originally Posted by Ryand-Smith

So its Mass Production VivoArmy, strong but not KAISER CHAN strong, I like this, would she happen to have shields as common tools or more like DIVINE BUSTER 10 damage sort of natural strength?

hmmm. I'm not too sure what you're asking but the strength is something like no damage for anything below c rank attacks and reduced damage for the rest.

@Kha: I just remembered something. Subaru's Wing Road and Oscillating Breaker. I don't remember clearly but Shario mentioned something like she was having trouble in getting Mach Caliber to use Wing Road as it was not exactly a magical skill or similar. I don't have access to the anime atm so i can't check.

@Keroko: That sparks a dim memory. Didn't Subaru load cartridges before using Oscillating Breaker when she went berserk?

[LimitedEternal]

Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, this verse makes a line between science and magic so blurred as to be academic.

Which in turn raises the question: Does a difference between science and magic need to exist? Can there be said to be a point where it simply isn't necessary to draw a line between the two?

Not that it's a huge thing to myself either way, just some food for thought.

[JamesEdwards]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

I am Meister Babylon. I strike as and when, and how, I wish.

I don't see the difference. It's still magic isn't it? It's powered by mana and the entire blast is still a manifestation of her will.

*UnLURKS.*

As for physics... Touma canceled the Railgun, and the forums are still bewildered, even I'm puzzled, over how the fuck he did it. So that alone blows a hole in your objection even if Starlight Breaker became an autonomous body operating under Newtonian physics.

Well, your first statement is quite an illuminating response on your take of "Magic" in the Nano-verse. But that's cool.

Now, as for the Railgun connundrum, well, gee-whiz, isn't it obvious? Touma nulling the Railgun makes perfect sense. You said so yourself that psychic / esper related phenomenon is delusions made into reality. Therefore:

What is accelerating Railgun?

Mikoto's delusion.

What happened to the 100 yen coin as it was accelerated by her delusion?

It melted / disintegrated.

Therefore, null the delusion and Railgun ceases to be. The 100 yen coin was already destroyed (last time I watched anyways) in the process, so Touma is not in danger from being hit by shrapnel. Also, look at this another way, since Touma nulled the delusion accelerating this coin, it's as if the coin never accelerated in the first place, so it could feasibly just drop right there on the ground in front of him.

And as such, I believe my argument still stands. Is Starlight Breaker - Magic? or Scientific?

If it's magic, obviously Touma wins.

If it's scientific like a gun, he lost. And dang that is the most harmless death ray ever.

[JamesEdwards]

Originally Posted by LimitedEternal

Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, this verse makes a line between science and magic so blurred as to be academic.

Which in turn raises the question: Does a difference between science and magic need to exist? Can there be said to be a point where it simply isn't necessary to draw a line between the two?

Not that it's a huge thing to myself either way, just some food for thought.

*Turns off his LURK! field.*

Well, I'll be honest, LE. I am of the school of thought that magic in the Nano-verse is high technology a la Xenosaga. In fact, I believe that is the canonical explanation that high technology is the basis for "magic". Therefore, if you look at it in Nasu-verse terms, it's not True Magick (e.g. Materialization of the Soul, that is bringing the dead back to life), but Magecraft / Sorcery.

Thus, my reasons for drawing the line between science and magic. Science is taking natural laws and making it available for practical use. Magic is "RAW RAW RAW! FIGHT THE POWAA!".

*Turns the LURK! field back on.*

[tshouryuu]

Originally Posted by JamesEdwards

*Turns off his LURK! field.*

Well, I'll be honest, LE. I am of the school of thought that magic in the Nano-verse is high technology a la Xenosaga. In fact, I believe that is the canonical explanation that high technology is the basis for "magic". Therefore, if you look at it in Nasu-verse terms, it's not True Magick (e.g. Materialization of the Soul, that is bringing the dead back to life), but Magecraft / Sorcery.

Thus, my reasons for drawing the line between science and magic. Science is taking natural laws and making it available for practical use. Magic is "RAW RAW RAW! FIGHT THE POWAA!".

*Turns the LURK! field back on.*

Or to pull something out of my rear end, magic could be a Fundamental Force like Gravity, Electromagnetic Force, Strong and Weak Nuclear Force making all magic, science.

*runs like hell away*

[MeisterBabylon]

Originally Posted by LimitedEternal

Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, this verse makes a line between science and magic so blurred as to be academic.

Which in turn raises the question: Does a difference between science and magic need to exist? Can there be said to be a point where it simply isn't necessary to draw a line between the two?

Not that it's a huge thing to myself either way, just some food for thought.

Because AMF exists, yes. There is a distinct advantage, and difference, b/w conventional (Science is not a weapon 7arcs/Ken Akamatsu! And you Cadians should know better than follow suit!!!) attacks and Skills, and magic itself.

Originally Posted by JamesEdwards

Well, your first statement is quite an illuminating response on your take of "Magic" in the Nano-verse. But that's cool.

I didn't want to ignite more of those tech wars of old, so I K.I.S.S.

More below.

Originally Posted by JamesEdwards

Now, as for the Railgun connundrum, well, gee-whiz, isn't it obvious? Touma nulling the Railgun makes perfect sense. You said so yourself that psychic / esper related phenomenon is delusions made into reality. Therefore:

What is accelerating Railgun?

Mikoto's delusion.

What happened to the 100 yen coin as it was accelerated by her delusion?

It melted / disintegrated.

Therefore, null the delusion and Railgun ceases to be. The 100 yen coin was already destroyed (last time I watched anyways) in the process, so Touma is not in danger from being hit by shrapnel. Also, look at this another way, since Touma nulled the delusion accelerating this coin, it's as if the coin never accelerated in the first place, so it could feasibly just drop right there on the ground in front of him.

No it isn't obvious. It seems simple, but on closer inspection, not really. Not without overhauling our understanding of how either Railgun, Imagine Breaker, or the Laws of Physics work.

Your latter suggestion would ruin the temporal causality of the situation (which is fundamental to both scientific analysis and the misconceived notion of Science). Nullify the force or remove the projection, and the body becomes free and should behave according to Newtonian physics. Friction takes over and slows it down without the will projection, but its takes a lot of momentum to slow something from Mach 3 to 0 that is already in skin contact. Touma should get hit by something at least and most likely have a hole in his hand instead.

And according to your former suggestion, if the coin has already is disintegrated to the point of nothingness rather than a molten glob, then what is causing damage when it hits without being canceled? If its a molten glob, its going to do damage from the transfer of momentum and the transfer of heat, which is strangely absent on Touma. And remember, Touma can only stop things in skin contact, all the energy transfered is going into his hand, and its going to be ugly.

Like I said, its an unresolvable conundrum. It's either the Laws of Science is actually a manifestation of AIM fields by generations of scientists (which can be very loosely inferred from the New Scientist article "In Science We Believe") and so he can cancel the laws of Physics. Or that the whole Railgun, even the "accelerated body", is a delusion and its nullified outright like the Golem, which then begets the question WTF do you even need the coin in the first place?

My best theory is that Misaka creates a magnetic tunnel all the way through to the target before releasing the coin, thus creating the massive electric wind tunnel effect we see in anime and ensuring the coin has all the time in the nanosecond to be accelerated to insane speeds to the target. Touma touches this tunnel and no more impetus to coin-flipping, or at least if it had been accelerating lands short of the target. However, this is then Misaka's cheating with a extendable railgun barrel, not the actual railgun at fault, and overhauls what we know of how Railgun (the skill) works, so that might be a flaw in the theory.

There are flaws in all theories presented so far, so I'm holding out for what becomes of the To Aru conversations on the other side. Better leave it to the Indexist experts on this...

Originally Posted by JamesEdwards

And as such, I believe my argument still stands. Is Starlight Breaker - Magic? or Scientific?

If it's magic, obviously Touma wins.

If it's scientific like a gun, he lost. And dang that is the most harmless death ray ever.

All your statements are true, I don't dispute that. However, we know that Starlight Breaker is hampered by AMF, so it's canonically demonstrated to be magic, never mind how it works. That makes it definitely cancelable, even more than Railgun as Starlight Breaker does not have a solid core. And Touma has canceled a gigantic magical beam before...

It's not that complicated. K.I.S.S.

[Kikaifan]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

All your statements are true, I don't dispute that. However, we know that Starlight Breaker is hampered by AMF, so it's canonically demonstrated to be magic, never mind how it works. That makes it definitely cancelable, even more than Railgun as Starlight Breaker does not have a solid core.

It's not that complicated.

Doesn't that argument still depend entirely on the irrational assumption that 'magic' means the same thing between the series?

AMF implies nothing but that the forces holding 'magical' structures together can be specifically disrupted. That doesn't require Nanohaverse magic to be a 'nonscientific'... though since esper abilities are considered 'scientific' in Index that distinction would be meaningless even if it held between settings.

[LimitedEternal]

Originally Posted by JamesEdwards

*Turns off his LURK! field.*

Well, I'll be honest, LE. I am of the school of thought that magic in the Nano-verse is high technology a la Xenosaga. In fact, I believe that is the canonical explanation that high technology is the basis for "magic". Therefore, if you look at it in Nasu-verse terms, it's not True Magick (e.g. Materialization of the Soul, that is bringing the dead back to life), but Magecraft / Sorcery.

Thus, my reasons for drawing the line between science and magic. Science is taking natural laws and making it available for practical use. Magic is "RAW RAW RAW! FIGHT THE POWAA!".

*Turns the LURK! field back on.*

I'm not familiar with this "Nasu-verse," but I believe I feel a sense of kindred spirits here.

Originally Posted by tshouryuu

Or to pull something out of my rear end, magic could be a Fundamental Force like Gravity, Electromagnetic Force, Strong and Weak Nuclear Force making all magic, science.

*runs like hell away*

Oh? An interesting proposal to be sure. Magic as a fundamental force...why not?

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Because AMF exists, yes. There is a distinct advantage, and difference, b/w conventional (Science is not a weapon 7arcs/Ken Akamatsu! And you Cadians should know better than follow suit!!!) attacks and Skills, and magic itself.

I realize that the difference exists as it is, I was just tossing something out there.


...so where did this cancelling magic come from?

Page claim for...half-coherent 2 AM posting.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Did somebody mention Science?

SCIENCE?!

We will figure magic out and anylize it!

FOR