Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel Movie Discussion Thread

[OminousFlare]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Saber is the mascot for Fate Stay Night. She has an important role in every route and her connection with Shiro is always the same.

Disagreed. Saber's screentime was practically cut to none in UBW, and let's not even talk about Alter in HF. Also, her screentime in HF was practically Fate route rehashed plus bullshit face-heel turn.

Also, I wouldn't say she's exactly the mascot for F/SN. Fate/Zero, perhaps, but her focus in F/SN was practically reduced to only the Fate route. Compare her amount of screentime to Rin, for example. If anything, Rin would be a bigger mascot compared to Saber for F/SN. Saber's screentime in the other routes amount to merely fanservice material rather than actual character development. Rin had an Archer-relationship in UBW and a Sakura-relationship in HF, both of which expanded her character greatly.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

In what way is her connection stronger?

No, Shirou does not have the strongest bond with Saber. He's only just met her, Sakura has been coming over his house practically every day for over a year.

Arguably, Saber's ideals reflect Shirou's ideals. Both Saber and Shirou know better than anyone what it means to sacrifice for the greater good of saving everyone, in that Saber had to kill her emotions to save as many people as she calculated, while Shirou insisted on not making any sacrifices if it's possible, and maybe even when it's impossible. Therefore, I was quite surprised that Saber barely had any input when it came to Shirou accepting his ideals in UBW. If anything, it was because Shirou accepted his ideals that Saber received his closure, so the 'Good End' in UBW doesn't make any sense at all, nor does the True End to some extent (as Saber practically accepted her closure automatically like the machine she was at the end of UBW). Saber continued pursuing her ideals despite being betrayed by her knights and country; Future Shirou was betrayed by his own ideals and abandoned them. I don't think I need to make it any clearer that there's a lack of argument from Saber in UBW.

In other words, I'm saying that neither Saber nor Shirou should be able to seal the gap in their hearts without each other, logically speaking, regardless of what the VN implied. Whereas Sakura feels like the childhood friend, Saber feels more like the 'love at first sight' perfect match. There's a reason why Saber claiming Shirou being her sheath made so much sense. Think about that.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I don't see any reason why the FSN anime would be grimdark.

Rape-worms and future-self trying to kill you not dark enough for you?

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

Disagreed. Saber's screentime was practically cut to none in UBW, and let's not even talk about Alter in HF. Also, her screentime in HF was practically Fate route rehashed plus bullshit heel face turn.

Also, I wouldn't say she's exactly the mascot for F/SN. Fate/Zero, perhaps, but her focus in F/SN was practically reduced to only the Fate route. Compare her amount of screentime to Rin, for example. If anything, Rin would be a bigger mascot compared to Saber for F/SN. Saber's screentime in the other routes amount to merely fanservice material rather than actual character development. Rin had an Archer-relationship in UBW and a Sakura-relationship in HF, both of which expanded her character greatly.

I am glad that you posted your thought well and examined the case very closely

And I agree, Saber was given as much attention as it was given to both Rin and Sakura in F/SN. Because routes are made in a way that your preferred love interest ( Saber, Rin, Sakura ) get most attention in that route, that is why as you said Saber get's most in Fate and least in HF. So the real mascot of F/SN is in fact Shirou - he is main character and he is left with thought decision and unforgiving war to witch he was not prepared. Saber is simply one of 3 main heroines, and that is all.

But when you look closely Saber IS the mascot of Fate universe. Just look at how many her copies were made : Alter, Nero, Lily, Red ( Mordred ), Bride, Lion and Sakura ( one can also argue that casual Saber from F/Z is another version ).
When 10'th anniversary pools were made she was voted No.1 favorite Type-Moon character, in addition to that when they were releasing PV's and info for new F/SN remake everyone got a poster while Saber got real life statue at the very entrance to Unfotable part. I also heard that she is Nasu's most favorite of all three, and he is the author of the VN and universe at large ( Not sure about this but could be possible giving his comments when asked about her ).

Maybe it doesn't look like that in the game now when you finished it but Saber is to Type Moon what Darth Vader is to Star Wars or Goku to Dragonball. She is Type Moon mascot and their protective sing.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I don't see any reason why the FSN anime would be grimdark.

Can't believe I missed this comment.... xD

Fate universe itself is quite grimdark, if it's not like that I would not like it at all in the first place. If you want less or not grimdark Fate you have Ilya/Prism.

[OminousFlare]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

but Saber is to Type Moon what Darth Vader is to Star Wars or Goku to Dragonball.

Yeah, except that both Vader and Goku had a more significant role in the SW original Trilogy and the Dragonball series than Saber did in F/SN. Vader's importance could be compared to Rin's presence and then some, and as for Goku, it's not even a fair comparison. In contrast, Saber's existence barely mattered in UBW and HF. She might as well not have been in those routes. Avalon was never mentioned again after Fate, and Shirou's comparison as her sheath was gone too.

Though I agree that Type-Moon is definitely cashing in on Saber's fanservice, you can't really say that Saber is treated as seriously as Vader or Goku (more than half of those copies you mentioned were joke characters or alt. costumes, for example).

In short, the F/SN universe doesn't revolve around Saber, but due to fan-hype, the creators decided to milk the cash cow in the same sense as Akiyama Mio in K-On (who coincidentally is also not as well-written a character as the fans gave her credit for, much like pre-Fate/Zero Saber).

[Kyral]

Yeah, but his case was, that having all these versions of Saber is what makes her the Mascot of the Fate multiverse.

She's not always having much impact on the story, but she's one of the first things that comes to mind when you think of Fate.
I mean Mascots for Sports Teams and such are also mostly "just there for them being there".

@Coa
You forgot her Mysterious Heroine X copy

___

I don't really know what to expect for this remake...
Only the thing that's always are on my mind when they make a new Fate anime: Will they finally utilize The Church on a Hill/All the Evil of the World? Every Fate anime has The Sword of Promised Victory in it but the only anime that actually played "the Grail Theme" was Carnival Phantasm...

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

And I agree, Saber was given as much attention as it was given to both Rin and Sakura in F/SN.

Actually, speaking of who of the three heroines is getting the most screentime in the VN, Rin is first, Saber is second and Sakura is third. Rin didn't even get so much attention in her own route compared to Saber's route or Sakura's route, but she is featured and developed in all three routes.

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Saber is without a doubt the face of the whole Fate franchise, just as Arcueid is the face of the Tsukihime franchise and Shiki the face of the Kara no Kyoukai franchise. She outranks every other female character of the whole Nasuverse in popularity. Type-Moon is aware of this and therefore she is featured in most of the promo material. Calling her the mascot of Fate isn't so wrong.

[OminousFlare]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Saber is without a doubt the face of the whole Fate franchise, just as Arcueid is the face of the Tsukihime franchise

True, though I need to remind you that Arcueid was at least further developed in routes other than her own. Saber never received such privilege. It just bothers me a little bit that her popularity isn't really as justified as other characters, who are actually popular for a good reason (fan-hype isn't a good reason, nor is milk-cow marketing). Needless to say, such impressions come from playing more than half of F/SN and not seeing the big deal with Saber in the story.

[Lorhand]

I don't even know why you feel the need to remind me of that. Saber is the most popular character of the whole Fate-verse and Nasuverse, despite only receiving deeper character development in one route. So...?

I see you edited your post...

Most people simply know FSN because of the anime, which featured Fate, Saber's route. Then the next big Fate anime was Fate/Zero and the only female Servant was Saber. A large number of people don't even know the anime is based on a Visual Novel. It really isn't so hard to explain why Saber is so popular.

I mean, seriously, could an average person who hasn't watched Fate/Zero come up with a proper reason why he fancies Saber over all other Type-Moon characters aside from, "Waaaaaah! She's so kawaii (or moe)!!!"

I don't even like Saber that much. I'm getting a bit tired of seeing her face in every Fate/ project, but my favorite Fate heroines are Rin and Ilya.

Besides, Saber is an interesting character, as she is a genderbent King Arthur. She's a strong female character, very idealistic and her backstory is rather tragic. That is already enough reason why many people like her. Her backstory and personality seem more interesting to many people compared to Rin or Sakura. This isn't enough justification for you?

[OminousFlare]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

I don't even know why you feel the need to remind me of that. Saber is the most popular character of the whole Fate-verse and Nasuverse, despite only receiving deeper character development in one route. So...?

So the term 'overrated' comes to mind if proper justifications are not offered for said popularity...?

I mean, seriously, could an average person who hasn't watched Fate/Zero come up with a proper reason why he fancies Saber over all other Type-Moon characters aside from, "Waaaaaah! She's so kawaii (or moe)!!!"

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Fate anime was Fate/Zero and the only female Servant was Saber. A large number of people don't even know the anime is based on a Visual Novel. It really isn't so hard to explain why Saber is so popular.

No, it isn't hard. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

I mean, seriously, could an average person who hasn't watched Fate/Zero come up with a proper reason why he fancies Saber over all other Type-Moon characters aside from, "Waaaaaah! She's so kawaii (or moe)!!!"

I will tell you my reason - her story.
She is not properly developed as character? She is King Arthur, she is already developed as history has done that part of the job.

And that is why everyone like her, not because she is "moe" - but because she sacrificed everything ( including her own humanity ) to lead and protect her people. The same people who betrayed her in the end, including her very own daughter who she had to kill before her own eyes. Her entire life is a tragedy and that's why people like her, that's why I like her.

Sakura's tragedy is on the same level with difference that what happened to her affected only her and few people around her while what affected Saber affected entire nations, in her time and later.

Point of the story - one does not have to be so much developed to be face of the franchise.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

In contrast, Saber's existence barely mattered in UBW and HF. She might as well not have been in those routes. Avalon was never mentioned again after Fate, and Shirou's comparison as her sheath was gone too.

Yeah, but you must remember that this is because she was already developed entirely in Fate route. What you gonna do when the novel is written like that....

[OminousFlare]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

And that is why everyone like her, not because she is "moe" - but because she sacrificed everything ( including her own humanity ) to lead and protect her people. The same people who betrayed her in the end, including her very own daughter who she had to kill before her own eyes. Her entire life is a tragedy and that's why people like her, that's why I like her.

Sakura's tragedy is on the same level with difference that what happened to her affected only her and few people around her while what affected Saber affected entire nations, in her time and later.

Well said, except for one thing... the things you mentioned as to why you like her only happened behind the scenes. They were briefly mentioned or referenced as part of her backstory in the Fate route, and were never made note of again in the other routes. Sakura's tragedy, in contrast, can be connected to someone the protagonist interacts with directly - Zouken - as opposed to someone whom he had to imagine existed in the past. Moreover, compared to Zouken, Saber's traitors were hardly as fleshed out, thus leaving the readers little reasons to care, aside from the mentioning that 'she was betrayed by her own people.' Zouken, on the other hand, was someone whose beliefs, ideals, and philosophies could be directly confronted, and thus, explored by the readers. Your reason why everyone liked Saber, 'her sacrifice, her traitors,' they were all footnotes, unexplorable, and thus, rather unrelatable IMO.

This is probably why when I look back at it, having played half of HF, feels that Saber's story didn't really have as much depth as the other characters' stories. Actions speak louder than words, and showing is always better than telling in storytelling. Whereas there was plenty of 'telling' in terms of Saber's significance, there was more showing in regards to Archer and Sakura's character depth. "Drown in your ideals and die," Archer's quote, was exemplified by Shirou's actions, so we could relate better to the kind of person Archer is. Most of Saber's 'development' in Fate route, on the other hand, was mostly spent on Shirou's dreams about Saber's past (which is really just an exposition scene that's more 'telling' than 'showing' if you think about it), Saber protecting Shirou, or Shirou trying to protect Saber while whining about not wanting Saber to be harmed.

And you know what? Now that I think about it, Shirou's 'ideal' of 'wanting to save Saber and everyone' wasn't even developed much by the end of Fate route - even though 'protecting Saber' took up much of Fate route. It was obviously thrown in just to develop the romance between Shirou and Saber, not having the significant development until UBW came along.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Yeah, but you must remember that this is because she was already developed entirely in Fate route.

Oh, I beg to differ. There was so much more that could be explored to Saber's relationship with the other characters, specifically the contrast between her ideals and Archer's ideals in UBW, as I mentioned earlier.

[Brother Coa]

It's like I said - Saber character was fully developed by history. The moment everyone learned her true identity it was expected that that was it. Because I myself don't know anyone who didn't heard about King Arthur and his legend.

Point - no matter if they are behind the scenes, the entire point is trying to read them between the lines.

But I agree with you, now that I see it she was not developed as much as others when it comes to her personality. But what to expect from a women who gave away her humanity for the sake of others and spent her entire life in military service? The military types never have much of personality, except what is represented to us.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Saber is without a doubt the face of the whole Fate franchise, just as Arcueid is the face of the Tsukihime franchise and Shiki the face of the Kara no Kyoukai franchise. She outranks every other female character of the whole Nasuverse in popularity. Type-Moon is aware of this and therefore she is featured in most of the promo material. Calling her the mascot of Fate isn't so wrong.

Shiki is the protagonist of KNK and Arcueid is pretty much the true heroine of Tsukihime from what I know. So them being the face of their respective series is pretty clear. I can see where Ominous is coming from and why he doesn't consider her the mascot. But it doesn't change the fact that she is the face of the series. Saber represents anything Fate related. And is considered the main heroine of the series by most.

@Ominousflare

BTW didn't you like Saber? When reading your impressions of the visual novel I thought she was your favorite character.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Ragna92

Shiki is the protagonist of KNK and Arcueid is pretty much the true heroine of Tsukihime from what I know. So them being the face of their respective series is pretty clear. I can see where Ominous is coming from and why he doesn't consider her the mascot. But it doesn't change the fact that she is the face of the series. Saber represents anything Fate related. And is considered the main heroine of the series by most.

@Ominousflare

BTW didn't you like Saber? When reading your impressions of the visual novel I thought she was your favorite character.

I think the discussion is more about on which grounds has Saber been chosen as mascot character for the Fate/Stay Night franchise. A case has been made that by just looking a the amount of face time Saber has gotten in the F/SN visual novel she wouldn't be it.

[OminousFlare]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Besides, Saber is an interesting character, as she is a genderbent King Arthur. She's a strong female character, very idealistic and her backstory is rather tragic. That is already enough reason why many people like her. Her backstory and personality seem more interesting to many people compared to Rin or Sakura. This isn't enough justification for you?

Originally Posted by Ragna92

@Ominousflare

BTW didn't you like Saber? When reading your impressions of the visual novel I thought she was your favorite character.

It's more of a love-hate relationship at this point. As Lorhand described, the traits of Saber make for a really interesting female character. And if you read my post in the Fate/Prototype thread, you could see that I obviously fancy Saber's idealistic personality that's not too common among badass anime heroines.

But here's the thing... if you only look at Saber's character in terms of F/SN only, her character layers are pretty thin. Not to the point of being shallow, but thin in contrast to much more well-written characters such as Ilya, Rin, and obviously Archer. I initially didn't pay much attention to Rin, but her pragmatic attitude balanced with her struggle to be kind to people makes her a far more deeper character than Saber by the point of HF.

And the most annoying thing is, Saber isn't fundamentally a shallow character - it's just that Nasu made her seem that way. As I've said, Saber has such unused potential to be a much better character, but Nasu decided to use her for pure fanservice. I mean, what's up with her role at the Good End of UBW? That was quite stupid. In fact, just her entire role in UBW was pointless. Not sure about HF yet, but she's pretty much just there to guilt-trip Shirou, not that it's working effectively as his attention is entirely devoted to Sakura.

In that sense, I don't hate her character; I hate Nasu for not writing her better. Call it tough-love for Saber.

Also, even if you take into account her role in Fate/Zero, there's also much hate for her character, and a number of people described her as 'annoying, and killing the show.' Obviously, at this point of time, I have concerns whether if she's going to be thrown aside in F/SN (2014) when Rin and Sakura's characters are considered, considering the kind of role she has in their respective routes.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I think the discussion is more about on which grounds has Saber been chosen as mascot character for the Fate/Stay Night franchise. A case has been made that by just looking a the amount of face time Saber has gotten in the F/SN visual novel she wouldn't be it.

It's her character design I'd say. As in Saber's backstory character design. King Arthur is a world-famous and popular legend already and making him female naturally attracts attention and still makes her very appealing to both men and women. Lots of her backstory (and her faults in the past) is also explored via other characters like Mordred, Lancelot or Gawain, not so much in FSN though admittedly.

Rin and Sakura on the other hand are original characters. All three main heroines are strong and interesting, but the other two need lots of character development to compensate Saber's Charisma Rank B so to say. Rin (3rd place) does get a fair amount of screentime in every route, but Sakura was only allowed to shine in Heaven's Feel. Kinda surprises me that she managed to get sixth place in the latest female popularity poll, since at one time she even lost to Rider.

Speaking of heroines, Ilya, whose route was scrapped, probably got a popularity boost, thanks to her own manga and now anime.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

In that sense, I don't hate her character; I hate Nasu for not writing her better. Call it tough-love for Saber.

Also, even if you take into account her role in Fate/Zero, there's also much hate for her character, and a number of people described her as 'annoying, and killing the show.' Obviously, at this point of time, I have concerns whether if she's going to be thrown aside in F/SN (2014) when Rin and Sakura's characters are considered, considering the kind of role she has in their respective routes.

I have faith that since Nasu is helping with the script that he will do some rewriting of her character to make her more interesting, he said that he will do something about her and Shirou's relationship. So that might mean Nasu will do something about her character as well.

And I am pretty sure that she will not be case aside in remake as they said they will do nice closure for everyone. For Sakura that means finally ending her tournament with Zouken, for Rin to finally be together with her sister and for Saber to reach Avalon.

p.s. Even if some found her annoyed in F/Z she is still 2'nd favorite servant, right beneath Rider who ,I must admit, was awesome except for that king part.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

p.s. Even if some found her annoyed in F/Z she is still 2'nd favorite servant, right beneath Rider who ,I must admit, was awesome except for that king part.

I'm pretty sure Gilgmaesh is the 2nd most popular servant in Zero or at least tied for second with Saber.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

One thing I have to wonder... I heard talks of the remake not actually being a remake, but an entirely brand new story (with a brand new route) that most probably won't adapt the Fate route as the 2006 anime did. While it's just a rumor, I hope it's far from the truth because, it would really be a shame if the best of Saber's route we can get on anime is the original 2006 version, not a proper version that does justice to the route.

Sorry, but if they do a pure Fate anime and nothing else, I will go nuts. They've done Fate already, Sakura deserves better than to be ignored again.

And besides, I feel it would be much more efficient if they either do three separate seasons for the three different routes or go FMA:Brotherhood style and have a 64-episode season (the latter of which is, of course, unlikely; Fate/Zero was even split into two seasons).

It would be, but it's too much effort for too little reward, I think.

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

That last point is good enough for me... wait, no, it isn't. What did he mean by 'redone'? Hah... I hope he won't tweak away the romance elements between Shirou and Saber and toss in a Shirou/Rin shipping instead.

Why should it be Shirou x Saber (or Shirou x Rin, for that matter)? Saber is not Shirou's "default" girl, you know....

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

In short, he may not follow the VN lines at all and instead do it like manga author and add his own new solutions to some problems.

No, they won't do it like the Manga, because Nasu actually gives a crap about characterisation. Plus, the Manga is a total damn mess.

And, further, it's being marketed as a Zero sequel, so they're not going to change Sakura's backstory like the Manga did.

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

Disagreed. Saber's screentime was practically cut to none in UBW, and let's not even talk about Alter in HF. Also, her screentime in HF was practically Fate route rehashed plus bullshit face-heel turn.

Also, I wouldn't say she's exactly the mascot for F/SN. Fate/Zero, perhaps, but her focus in F/SN was practically reduced to only the Fate route. Compare her amount of screentime to Rin, for example. If anything, Rin would be a bigger mascot compared to Saber for F/SN. Saber's screentime in the other routes amount to merely fanservice material rather than actual character development. Rin had an Archer-relationship in UBW and a Sakura-relationship in HF, both of which expanded her character greatly.

Saber isn't close to the most important character in the VN, but she is the "mascot", in the sense that any advert for FSN will always have a picture of Saber on it. She's the character they use for marketing.

In other words, I'm saying that neither Saber nor Shirou should be able to seal the gap in their hearts without each other, logically speaking, regardless of what the VN implied. Whereas Sakura feels like the childhood friend, Saber feels more like the 'love at first sight' perfect match. There's a reason why Saber claiming Shirou being her sheath made so much sense. Think about that.

Rubbish. Sakura fits Shirou like a glove, and Shirou will be entirely happy with her.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Can't believe I missed this comment.... xD

Fate universe itself is quite grimdark, if it's not like that I would not like it at all in the first place. If you want less or not grimdark Fate you have Ilya/Prism.

The universe is Grimdark, yes, but the actual VN itself isn't. HF is the darkest route, but even there the True Ending is an extremely happy one.

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Actually, speaking of who of the three heroines is getting the most screentime in the VN, Rin is first, Saber is second and Sakura is third. Rin didn't even get so much attention in her own route compared to Saber's route or Sakura's route, but she is featured and developed in all three routes.

Whilst Rin is definitely first, I don't am not sure Saber is really much ahead of Sakura, especially if you consider actual character development and involvement rather than just sitting there in the background not doing much.

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

So the term 'overrated' comes to mind if proper justifications are not offered for said popularity...?

You're certainly not the only person with that opinion of Saber....

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

And I am pretty sure that she will not be case aside in remake as they said they will do nice closure for everyone. For Sakura that means finally ending her tournament with Zouken, for Rin to finally be together with her sister and for Saber to reach Avalon.

It seems likely, but I'm not sure how Nasu is going to do that.