(L+CR) Kobayashi-san Chi no Maid Dragon

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

See, the problem here is that I can't see how it is possible that on can argue that a character is "clearly gay", and yet then say the story doesn't support it. Isn't the case that the character isn't gay proof that she was never gay? Why is it one's fanon in one's head is somehow more important than the actual story?

Since when it is anyone's responsibility to enforce someone's fantasy?

Isn't it more likely that Kobayashi was straight all along, and that she had been consistent the entire series?

It would be just as bad if I claim Tohru was never gay for Kobayashi. It would be wrong, it would be a lie, but I can claim that in my head canon Tohru wa straight all along. That doesn't make me right.

It's simply about conflicting signals. The plot does not hinge on them being a couple and leans towards them not being one, but never gives any decisive information. On the other hand the framing of many scenes (direction, dialogue etc.) uses codified romantic tropes. For example Tohru saying Kobayashi she'll "give her everything", that sounds pretty romantic. And that's why most people assumed that the show really was saying that they were a lesbian couple, but leaving it as subtext. Basically there's strong enough hints that if one wants to read it that way they have plenty of material to, but at the same time it never states it outright in order not to raise too much of a fuss. THAT is what yuri-baiting is.

You keep treating this as if it was all an unsubstantiated fantasy of the viewers, but really, it's not. There's far too many people thinking that to be just a coincidence. It's not something like Naruto and Sasuke, where the canon makes it obvious that they're just friends/rivals but you still get a certain share of yaoi fanfics and such out of fans that still want to play it that way in their heads.

[Proto]

I miss the times when every single Kyoto Animation show was a smash hit for me, but I guess a low key series once in a while is not bad. I rather enjoyed this series for what it was, and for the time forward I'll just look forward to their next work, with moderate expectation for a second season.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

It's simply about conflicting signals. The plot does not hinge on them being a couple and leans towards them not being one, but never gives any decisive information.

That's what I refuse to accept. Tohru had declared her love many time, and Kobayashi kept rejecting it. What exactly do you WANT as "decisive information"?

Does Kobayashi need to kick Tohru out of her home? Does Kobayashi have to stab Touru with a knife? What exactly is this "decisive information that you want?"

Just TELL me. If saying "no" isn't no, then what is no?

Is no, yes?

[Verso Sciolto]

Episode 13, or: How to seal the deal on making a series about dragons seem like a re-affirmation of conservative nuclear families and a celebration of urban mundanity … but with a twist in the tail.

Was that the intent?

I think Kobayashi is a repressed individual and I think that applies to all her emotions. I think she is still very uncomfortable with all forms of intimacy too but not as much as in the beginning of the story. I think it is incredibly important to recognise how Kobayashi’s inhibitions are absent under the influence of large amounts of alcohol. About her workload and hours. About her boss and co-workers. About her desires. About all those very important elements of her existence she displayed vastly different opinions than while she is sober. She is treated as sexually undesirable by her closest office acquaintance and he may be the only person the adult Kobayashi socially interacts with outside the office. On somewhat friendly terms. She resents that he treats her like one of the guys but has given up on passionately objecting to that and everything else that matters to her, if you asked her honestly. If she ever did anything passionately she has forgotten about it. Even her maid obsession is restrained. Sober.

Kobayashi is a salaryman who loves Tohru and can’t imagine life without her anymore. With Tohru’s arrival Kobayashi came to life whereas before she was merely existing. Kobayashi loves women. She loves maids. Not butlers, maids. Refined maids. With proper attire, which doesn’t need to be a uniform. Maids with impeccable manners but most of all with the proper awareness of their duties. Well trained to independently carry out their tasks with competence. Until she drinks heavily. While drunk, when her own docile personality is replaced and her own servile tendencies are gone Kobayashi does reveal passion. Then quietly obedient Kobayashi is substituted for an increasingly domineering but equally dissatisfied loud and brash character who wants to do sexy things with Tohru.

I think Kobayashi is a closeted lesbian and I think her nearly absent libido is just part of the whole repressed worker drone package. Part of her horrible self-image as an undesirable life form.
I think Tohru’s company has started to work on her. I think they might have sex in the future and I’d see that as a welcome development. Not because Kobayashi doesn’t show any interest in sex but because she only does so under certain circumstances. I think she is indeed someone who can only be honest with herself when she is drunk. She doesn’t stop drinking when she reaches that stage of uninhibited honesty, however, but deliberately goes well beyond the point where she no-longer has to feign emotional blackout and the memory loss that comes with that level of intoxication.

Spoiler for Hangovers::

Tohru: トールは小林さんが大好きです!
Kobayashi: 食べる気?
Tohru:違います　性的にです!!
Kobayashi:私は女なんだが・・・
Tohru:私は小林さんに助けられました!! だから身体全部使って恩返しです! 明日もトールで通勤してほしいです!
Kobayashi: 大袈裟な・・・

Kobayashi’s reply in episode one and chapter one [quoted behind the hangover tagged spoiler] was more than just ambiguous. It is a coded phrase. A deliberate wink to those familiar with yuri stories. Unlike the English translation it is not an outright rejection but a hint that Kobayashi never soberly considered even the possibility. The option is there, however. She’s been made aware of it. She isn’t quite there yet herself. Kobayashi’s No does not mean Yes, however. Tohru respects that.

Tohru has no compunctions about letting Kobayashi know that she desires her sexually, for whatever reason. Their relationship is still one of gratitude. That is echoed here in the thirteenth episode. Without the contentious line.

Tohru: I’ll give you everything.
Kobayashi: That’s more than I need.

But she’ll now accept more than she thought she needed when she first met Tohru and Tohru too sees possibilities she never dreamt possible in the other realm or on first meeting. The realm representing our troubled past, as far as I’m concerned. They’ve acknowledged each other. Sex is a minor part of the equation.

Tohru has put the other realm on notice with Kobayashi’s help. I hope Tohru will use her magical powers to unleash Kobayashi from that mind numbing office job. So what if that use of magic alerts other dragons about her presence here? What could additional dragons possibly bring to the alternate universe Kobayashi inhabits? What can dragons do that we haven’t been doing to ourselves and to those unfortunate species who’ve shared this world with us, for as long as we’ve been a sentient species. War, pestilence, habitat destruction? Not like we’re not already intimately familiar with those “concepts”, are we?

Keeping us confined to our universe seems more desirable than keeping out the dragons. That seems to be the message of this fable, to me.

On the other issue. In short:
"In Vino Veritas"

... or for a more sober avenue for re-evaluation:
"Boston Marriages: Romantic but Asexual Relationships among Contemporary Lesbians" - Esther D. Rothblum, Kathleen A. Brehony (Editors)

The text can be searched online, via Google Books, but doing so yielded no results for dragon(s).

We have to make do without their magic. Tempting though it may be to wish for them. There are no magical solutions. Lesbians exist though. Coming out and living openly as one won’t do more damage to our world than hasn’t already been done for millennia.

Bye, dad. We would have invited you in but you're not welcome on your terms. Go have a think about it some more. We'd like your approval but can live without it. Not the best life imaginable but perhaps that realisation itself can set off a tiny evolution...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I certainly don't mind if one held the view that Kobayashi is in the closet.

However, I will not tolerate any attack of the studio for then "NOT" making her come out of the closet. Because I have enough about "Yuri bating" and find it is hateful. That it is projecting one's interpretations over what is shown. And I have had to endure TWO seasons of this already. "Why don't they have sex! Why aren't they married? Why aren't they kissing? Why can't what I want to happen be more important than what is actually in the story"?

I am sick and tired of insults thrown at the anime studio for it. If Kobayashi is suppose to still be in the closet, then she is still inside. Demanding that she come out is wrong.

[skaianDestiny]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's what I refuse to accept. Tohru had declared her love many time, and Kobayashi kept rejecting it. What exactly do you WANT as "decisive information"?

Does Kobayashi need to kick Tohru out of her home? Does Kobayashi have to stab Touru with a knife? What exactly is this "decisive information that you want?"

Just TELL me. If saying "no" isn't no, then what is no?

Is no, yes?

That's the thing. She never said no. Never has Kobayashi actually rejected Tohru's advances; the closest you could argue is her refusing to eat Tohru's tail. Note that I'm speaking solely about the anime.

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I certainly don't mind if one held the view that Kobayashi is in the closet.

However, I will not tolerate any attack of the studio for then "NOT" making her come out of the closet. Because I have enough about "Yuri bating" and find it is hateful. That it is projecting one's interpretations over what is shown. And I have had to endure TWO seasons of this already. "Why don't they have sex! Why aren't they married? Why aren't they kissing? Why can't what I want to happen be more important than what is actually in the story"?

I am sick and tired of insults thrown at the anime studio for it. If Kobayashi is suppose to still be in the closet, then she is still inside. Demanding that she come out is wrong.

I'd like Kobayashi to come out but even if she is asexual I'd still see her as a lesbian. I think she is portrayed as attracted to women. But women in a conservative role. That is Kyoani and their choice of story. I think the studio can be criticised for that.

I'd like for Kyoani to adapt a story with other openly lesbian characters who find a partner as into physical attraction as Tohru is because I do think what they're doing is a cop out. I think too many of their stories sexualise their characters while removing sex from the lives of the characters themselves.

The studio caters to an audience, their audience and they know that audience consists of people with clashing interests. That criticism isn't going away.

Originally Posted by skaianDestiny

That's the thing. She never said no. Never has Kobayashi actually rejected Tohru's advances; the closest you could argue is her refusing to eat Tohru's tail. Note that I'm speaking solely about the anime.

That's not [entirely] true. Kobayashi has declined Tohru's invitation to sex several times and denied that desire was what motivated her to do certain things as well when Tohru used innuendo...

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by skaianDestiny

That's the thing. She never said no. Never has Kobayashi actually rejected Tohru's advances; the closest you could argue is her refusing to eat Tohru's tail. Note that I'm speaking solely about the anime.

maybe you are watching the wrong anime cuz she refuse every tohru attempt to attack her and display her "love", the only times she accepted something from tohru was when she was behavious more "normal" without being romantic/sex actions.

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

That's not true. Kobayashi has declined Tohru's invitation to sex several times and denied that desire was what motivated her to do certain things as well when Tohru used innuendo...

yeah pretty much kobayashi never accepted any thoru advance and even have some "inner toughts" about it like how she must be carefull with thoru if she want keep her virginity at safe and others things she really never accepted any advance, while she not make clear if she is straight, she is almost clear not being lesbian either.

[skaianDestiny]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

maybe you are watching the wrong anime cuz she refuse every tohru attempt to attack her and display her "love", the only times she accepted something from tohru was when she was behavious more "normal" without being romantic/sex actions.

"Refuse" implies that she actively pushed Tohru away when she did that. She doesn't. She lets Tohru do those things (getting closer under the umbrella, holding hands, entwining arms during the festival, all "romantic" things) instead of denying her. Sure she doesn't "reciprocate", but that's the entire point of the issue: the anime makes it a lot more ambiguous whether or not Kobayashi reciprocates Tohru's feelings compared to the manga.

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

yeah pretty much kobayashi never accepted any thoru advance and even have some "inner toughts" about it like how she must be carefull with thoru if she want keep her virginity at safe and others things she really never accepted any advance, while she not make clear if she is straight, she is almost clear not being lesbian either.

Once again, you're talking about things from the manga. In the anime, aside from episode one where she says "but I'm a girl", Kobayashi doesn't ever make a comment about her sexuality. In fact, there's a stronger argument that she's attracted to women with her enthusiasm for getting girls naked or excitement at touching Tohru's boobs when she's drunk.

Once again, separate what we know from the manga from what we know in the anime, seeing as KyoAni made some very significant changes in regards to presentation and plot. The manga and anime are very much different if similar stories at this point.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by skaianDestiny

"Refuse" implies that she actively pushed Tohru away when she did that. She doesn't. She lets Tohru do those things (getting closer under the umbrella, holding hands, entwining arms during the festival, all "romantic" things) instead of denying her. Sure she doesn't "reciprocate", but that's the entire point of the issue: the anime makes it a lot more ambiguous whether or not Kobayashi reciprocates Tohru's feelings compared to the manga.


Once again, you're talking about things from the manga. In the anime, aside from episode one where she says "but I'm a girl", Kobayashi doesn't ever make a comment about her sexuality. In fact, there's a stronger argument that she's attracted to women with her enthusiasm for getting girls naked or excitement at touching Tohru's boobs when she's drunk.

Once again, separate what we know from the manga from what we know in the anime, seeing as KyoAni made some very significant changes in regards to presentation and plot. The manga and anime are very much different if similar stories at this point.

i'm not using the "manga" i'm talking only about anime, maybe you really looked "too much" into the the things, the anime never made kobayashi looks like lesbian or want to be one, but the opposite, you really need to rewatch or maybe change your "yuri glasses" cuz they must be somehow bad, cuz just by the anime i could say which while tohru can be lesbian kobayashi never was.

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

yeah pretty much kobayashi never accepted any thoru advance and even have some "inner toughts" about it like how she must be carefull with thoru if she want keep her virginity at safe and others things she really never accepted any advance, while she not make clear if she is straight, she is almost clear not being lesbian either.

Words like "never" and "any" are again the obstacles, it seems.

To me, what Kobayashi declines is sex but sexual activity doesn’t define whether or not someone is a lesbian. I think an argument can be made that Kobayashi declines sex even though she desires it, when taking her uninhibited moments under the influence of alcohol into account. Sex and love can be intertwined and they are often conflated.

I may have conflated them in my previous response. Just made a late edit to add: [Entirely] to that comment.

I think Kobayashi loves Tohru in a romantic way and does not reject Tohru's advances in that regard. As I tried to articulate above I think of Kobayashi as a repressed, closeted lesbian. Perhaps asexual but I have doubts about her asexuality too. She is opening up to her own emotions and getting more comfortable with physical intimacy. Perhaps that's all it will ever be but I will continue to think of them as a lesbian couple, regardless...


Edit to add on general note:
This news coincided with the end of this anime series and I think it warrants a mention here. Osaka approves gay couple as foster parents
Minor miracle but it looks like no magic was required to get the required paperwork processed.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's what I refuse to accept. Tohru had declared her love many time, and Kobayashi kept rejecting it. What exactly do you WANT as "decisive information"?

Does Kobayashi need to kick Tohru out of her home? Does Kobayashi have to stab Touru with a knife? What exactly is this "decisive information that you want?"

Just TELL me. If saying "no" isn't no, then what is no?

Is no, yes?

I remember only one such time, and it was back in episode one. And all Kobayashi said was a weak "But I'm a girl...", which doesn't seem much of a protest to begin with.

You keep turning this into an issue of consent, as if I was trying to justify rape or whatever. This has nothing to do with that. This has to do with the way a story is told. When we see a story we see only certain bits of the lives of the characters. Taken on their own, these bits don't always show the full story; we are left to deduce what happens in the gaps, as well as in the unspoken world of the characters' heads, on our own, from hints and references. Let's look at the evidence.

I imagine you're a straight male (if you're not, swap the genders in the following example as required). A guy presents himself to you. He says he loves you. He says he actually desires you, sexually. He doesn't look like a bad guy, but he's definitely very enthusiastic about the whole thing. Would you feel comfortable letting him live in your house, cook your meals, basically be like your husband in all but name? Or would you consider this a rather awkward situation? It's not just that you may be encouraging a love that is hopeless, and thus creating a toxic relationship between the two of you, as well as exploiting that love for your gain (heh, maid for free!). It's that you're depriving yourself of options. What if you find a girlfriend and want to bring her home? See, Tohru isn't just in love with Kobayashi - she's madly jealous of her, to the point of blasting away Elma when she simply shows up at Kobayashi's home. That would already be pretty nasty from your actual partner. From someone who amounts to a friend that happens to live at your house it's straight up unacceptable. Who the hell is willing to accept that if not, at most, from someone they love deeply - in a romantic way - and whose jealousy they can at least understand and are willing to forgive?

So the point is, what we see in the anime doesn't describe a Kobayashi who's starkly refusing Tohru's love. It shows a Kobayashi who starts cold and then warms up through the story, who clearly finds herself discovering the very idea of human warmth and being loved and desired thanks to her 'family life' with Tohru and Kanna. She says as much herself after the Elma episode. And the point is that whatever barriers she was putting up to keep human interaction at a distance at the beginning of the show, at the end she's lowering. How are we supposed to know if her weak "but I'm a girl..." at the beginning wasn't simply one such barrier? We can't. In fact it sounds like it was, because throughout the show she keeps letting Tohru get closer to her, physically as well as emotionally, and the show ends with Tohru sobbing, hugging and thanking her and promising she'll give her "everything"; this after she basically risked her life to have her back, and immediately followed by going to introduce her to her parents. You know, like you'd do with a fiancee. And whenever she's drunk (including in the flashback of her meeting) she gets much bolder and all touchy with her - fondles her boobs and stuff. What is one supposed to make of that?

That's the thing. The anime basically says "okay, this is a story about a woman who's a bit cold and distant from the rest of humanity and how her meeting an oddball dragon actually makes her discover the warmth of family". Then it throws in a lot of romantic tropes and hints. Stories about someone's heart thawing + romantic hints, in fiction, usually end up meaning only one thing. Which is what most people took away from this show. Again, removed from the context of the manga, which may be more clear about these issues, I don't know.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Fine. Whatever. It is clear we are going to have to continue with KyoAni being an evil studio who deliberately try to hurt those who want lesbians by somehow inserting "hints" about romantic pairings and then snatch it all away at the final episode.

Happy now? You can keep doing this for the next how many years about how KyoAni is doing everything wrong. I don't care anymore. Have fun with your "yuri baiting" complaints. I consider it extremely horrible that people would consider their fantasies so important as to attack studios. But it is your choice to be horrible.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Fine. Whatever. It is clear we are going to have to continue with KyoAni being an evil studio who deliberately try to hurt those who want lesbians by somehow inserting "hints" about romantic pairings and then snatch it all away at the final episode.

I haven't said anything like that. I don't even watch many KyoAni shows, this was the first in ages. I haven't watched Euphonium, for example. I don't think they're 'evil' - they're just doing the convenient thing. They're being commercial-minded, sure, to make more of a buck with a bit of sleight of hand. That's not evil in my book - just slightly disappointing as far as artistic integrity goes.

[Schpittfeuer]

Sigh, I am sad that it ended




2nd season when

[CrowKenobi]

AND with that I'm going to close the thread for awhile to put to an end the circular "discussion" that just dosen't want to end. When the thread reopens, this "discussion" will not return.

EDIT: Thread re-opened.

[Verso Sciolto]

Has anyone else besides sister Riko borrowed Georgie Saikawa’s Hanakotoba dictionary? There are many like it, but that one is hers, to paraphrase Mr. Chekhov.

[Liddo-kun]

Glad that this thread is open again.

It seems the special episode 1 is released already.

[Router25]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

It seems the special episode 1 is released already.

You mean the 00-Dragon specials?

[TnAdct1]

Originally Posted by Router25

You mean the 00-Dragon specials?

If that's what Liddo-kun meant, then the first one's been out since last month, with the second one coming out next week.