Nanoha Manga Discussion

[FRS]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I suppose all can imagine my commentary on this whole farce, so I'd skip it.

Thanks for the summary arkhangelsk, if i wanted to be optimistic, maybe it's a way to "free" her so she can back on the frontline for a hypothetical next season

[Keroko]

*shrug* I'm happy enough she admits in canon that she was a failure as a commander.

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

Besides, OC was once a very important and fun thread to me Now I no longer have the time T_T

It's recently calmed down, though. Might want to give it a try again.

[serenade_beta]

Spoiler for chp. 13 thoughts:

Page 1 - Is that half-face supposed to be Jail? Doesn't look it much...

Page 2 - Looks more violent then the anime

Page 3 - Subaru's eye...

Page 4 - Still more violent... Blood from the eyepatch...

Page 5 - *short laugh* at Jail's pose

Page 6 (The little part with Ginga vs. Subaru) - *long laughter* at Ginga as a whole

Every page afterwards - *immense anger building*

[Keroko]

there's just no pleasing some people.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I suppose all can imagine my commentary on this whole farce, so I'd skip it.

Awwww~ But it would make excellent reading

Originally Posted by Keroko

*shrug* I'm happy enough she admits in canon that she was a failure as a commander.

But it doesn't change anything though.

Originally Posted by Keroko

It's recently calmed down, though. Might want to give it a try again.

-_-

[Ottocycle]

For those who can't wait and can read Chinese, chapter 11 is out by flsnow.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

But it doesn't change anything though.

Neither does whining and crying about how badly they screwed things up.

At least they aknowledge that they were wrong and made Hayate cannonically aknowledge that she was a bad commander. Its not much, but its something.

[Nightengale]

The irony here, is that, if she accepts being in a command position elsewhere, she'd probably do better as a commander than she did in RF6 since... well, probably since none of her friends would be there, unless the Wolkies, etc decides to jump shift together. It won't be as good as RF6, but let's face it, RF6 was a case of excellent staff, lousy command, and half the reason was clearly because the bulk of RF6's main structure were composed of friends, family, friends, family, friends.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by humbug23

For those who can't wait and can read Chinese, chapter 11 is out by flsnow.

It is?! Ah, good, good. Thanks for the info, humbug.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Neither does whining and crying about how badly they screwed things up.

At least they aknowledge that they were wrong and made Hayate cannonically aknowledge that she was a bad commander. Its not much, but its something.

No, you don't get it.

It doesn't change anything IN the story. So what if Hayate admits it? What is that going change? The show's over, what's the point of it now?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

No, you don't get it.

It doesn't change anything IN the story. So what if Hayate admits it? What is that going change? The show's over, what's the point of it now?

No, I do get it.

It doesn't change much in the story, but whining and crying about it will change even less.

What does this change? It changes the idea that Hayate was doing a fine job. Hayate knows she screwed up, but without this chapter, it would have been as if Hayate and everyone around her thought she had done a fine job. That would have been far worse.

This chapter has changed far more then you realise.

[Nemesis]

Jail: The first team will start preparing for infiltration tomorrow.
Jail: Due has a separate agenda, but I want you 11 sisters
Jail: to work together to correct the situation.
Jail: To attack the special forces and the capture of the “Vessel of the Saint”
Jail: Suppression of the Ground Headquarters
Jail: The two Type Zero and the inheritance of F, especially the first
Jail: If it is possible, I’d like you to capture them.
Jail: You girls
Jail: can definitely succeed.


Taken from page 27,
i realise there is a Plothole here.
I checked ep 16-17 and found they only mentioned capturing the Type Zero and capturing of the saint.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Adr 00

Jail: The first team will start preparing for infiltration tomorrow.
Jail: Due has a separate agenda, but I want you 11 sisters
Jail: to work together to correct the situation.
Jail: To attack the special forces and the capture of the “Vessel of the Saint”
Jail: Suppression of the Ground Headquarters
Jail: The two Type Zero and the inheritance of F, especially the first
Jail: If it is possible, I’d like you to capture them.
Jail: You girls
Jail: can definitely succeed.


Taken from page 27,
i realise there is a Plothole here.
I checked ep 16-17 and found they only mentioned capturing the Type Zero and capturing of the saint.

Not really, as two of the numbers do try to convince Fate to come to Jail's side.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Keroko

No, I do get it.

It doesn't change much in the story, but whining and crying about it will change even less.

What does this change? It changes the idea that Hayate was doing a fine job. Hayate knows she screwed up, but without this chapter, it would have been as if Hayate and everyone around her thought she had done a fine job. That would have been far worse.

This chapter has changed far more then you realise.

No, you don't get it.

The effect of that scene is so small you only have us two jokers arguring over it. And to make things worse, they published it in the manga which have less Audiences.

Okay, I'll put it in another way, what I meant is that I have nothing against Hayate's act of realization, but I'm sorry, it's just too bad, too late, so wrong, so long. Nothing Significant will come out of this. Oh, and everyone DID think she did a fine job, Hayate is the only one who disagreed.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

No, you don't get it.

The effect of that scene is so small you only have us two jokers arguring over it. And to make things worse, they published it in the manga which have less Audiences.

Okay, I'll put it in another way, what I meant is that I have nothing against Hayate's act of realization, but I'm sorry, it's just too bad, too late, so wrong, so long. Nothing Significant will come out of this. Oh, and everyone DID think she did a fine job, Hayate is the only one who disagreed.

Us two jokers, several people in the OC being happy about it, several other people here loathing it. And that's just the folks here on the forum who bother to speak up.

Once more, at least this chapter changes something, small as it may be. Your whining doesn't. Be happy that they did something as oposed to nothing.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Us two jokers, several people in the OC being happy about it, several other people here loathing it. And that's just the folks here on the forum who bother to speak up.

Once more, at least this chapter changes something, small as it may be. Your whining doesn't. Be happy that they did something as oposed to nothing.

Keroko, back in episode 18 of StrikerS, Hayate was already partly aware of her failure, though not outright saying it.

Originally Posted by Hayate, Strikers episode 18

It was a major failure, having Ginga and Vivio kidnapped. Several of my members were hurt. But we'll take back what was stolen. And this time I'll protect them.

This chapter changes nothing except for people who didn't take the hint.

And what does me 'whinning' have to do about anything? It might not change the world, but it doesn't mean that I was wrong with what I've said.

"Characterizing a particular position as whining says nothing about the validity of the argument."

That the 'change' is just too little too late.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Keroko, back in episode 18 of StrikerS, Hayate was already partly aware of her failure, though not outright saying it.

This chapter changes nothing except for people who didn't take the hint.

Often outright saying it is needed to convince or relay information propperly.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

And what does me 'whinning' have to do about anything? It might not change the world, but it doesn't mean that I was wrong with what I've said.

"Characterizing a particular position as whining says nothing about the validity of the argument."

That the 'change' is just too little too late.

It annoys me that everyone goes 'StrikerS did this bad' 'StrikerS did that bad' whine whine whine.

And what happens when men behind the screen try to make amends? When they try to give an apolagy through another medium?

They still whine!

Yes! We know StrikerS did this and that bad, you all told us a thousand times! But now we get what you want, although through another medium. This means they realize they made a mistake. Yes, its too late, but guess what? you can't reverse mistakes! The best you can do is make amends, which is what they're doing. Learn to be happy with something for once!

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Keroko, back in episode 18 of StrikerS, Hayate was already partly aware of her failure, though not outright saying it.

This chapter changes nothing except for people who didn't take the hint.

Actually, it does. She (and the authors in the magazine) apologized for the Ep16-17 farce, but then they did the Ep21 farce (partially because there's no time left for a real turn even assuming the shortest feasible lag time), remember? A new apology definitely is necessary.

At the very least, it makes me less eager for a court-martial scene (the one that I would never get). A little, anyway. Yes, I am so soft-hearted...

That the 'change' is just too little too late.

Considering that Ep26 is already over, yes, but to be fair to them, they already made the only change they could seriously make. Ideally, they should have redone everything from Ep16 at least, but that's an unrealistic expectation.

It does provide the impetus for a rework in Season 4. Many people think there will be a Season 4, since so many Season 3 DVDs were sold. In making her agree to re-educate herself, they have sealed off the Inexperience excuse they pretended they had. So hopefully, we'll see a more competent Hayate for Season 4.

Or at least if they hadn't learned basic tactics by then, maybe they'd spare Hayate the Double Character Assassination and just shelf her like Chrono. I know you like Chrono more than I do, and if Chrono was a major commander this season instead of just giving a single fire order, you know very well he's going to be so Character Assassinated. Chrono was spared, not only from defeat at the hands of Tre and Sette but also from 7Arc's incompetence..
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On another note, while the the TSAB as a whole obviously doesn't see the incompetence (sigh, but then their reputation is by now rock-bottom anyway), at least one man does - Genya. Toukan (I finally came up with the translation) means roughly "painfully realize." I think Genya, of all people, understands that the final result aside, Hayate's Course of Action was lousy.

However, since he figured that Hayate had learnt her lesson, he decided not to take her to task for it (in any case, it'd be against protocol for him to do so to a nominally superior officer, especially one that in the opinion of the majority, including the top, had done well). So he just draws out the confession with a reverse statement, then having confirmed that Hayate "painfully realizes" her inadequacies but doesn't want to give up, points the path.

Frankly, I have my doubts about the efficacy of a few more years of experience if 10 years of experience leads to the StrikerS misery, but one has to be optimistic. It is not like TSAB paramilitary schools / academies are worth a darn either (and having nominally passed them she would not be allowed to retake them anyway), so short of studying Terran tactics (which to the Nth generation Midchildran Nakajima would be unthinkable), learning through tough mistakes is the realistic recommendation.

The fact that Genya sees something the others don't is not amazing. He may well be the best battalion commander on all of the Midchildran Ground Forces, so this is in character.

Spoiler for Details:

Four years back he managed to get himself, and probably his battalion, into the airport over an hour earlier than the Air Armament Service can move in 20 mages.

In StrikerS his unit was tabbed to defend Curnagan, and since he was the apparent senior commander at the scene, apparently no other GF battalion managed to even move as a complete unit - sigh again but the TSAB's inability to mobilize worth a darn is a pre-StrikerS problem. (The fact that Hayate was Senior officer at the Cradle implies that nothing larger than a squadron-equivalent, and maybe not even that, arrived on-scene as a coherent unit).

Further, his unit managed to stand up to ... OK, they were only Gadget drones and they were showing a distinct lack of aggressiveness, but one has to compare that performance to the (probably at least nominally elite) GF security force in Episode 16!

[Nightengale]

The strangest thing with this whole Hayate = incompetent commander thing is that, strangely, it seems that on-paper, performance, and military records, she seems to had been portrayed as an excellent commander and suddenly high-demand for her actual skills and capabilities for handling the incident, while in reality, it's really HER STAFF that should've been in high demand, not her. I'm not sure if I want to chalk up the thought of her being a lousy commander as her own passiveness or that TSAB is so blind that they can't see that that what made RF6 work was her nepotism since her friends/family are some of the very best, 7Arcs plotshield, etc etc etc.

Unless they think wherever Hayate goes, her Knights follow suit, but clearly that's not always the case, since even if their primary task will always be protecting and supporting Hayate, canonically it's proven that they don't stick like glue in their division posting/etc.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Not really, as two of the numbers do try to convince Fate to come to Jail's side.

At the same time, it's not really true either. Uno's monologues specifically cited just the Type-Zeros as a optional capture candidate if possible, and the real priority were just Vivio.

Besides, considering that Erio was perfectly viable for capture in his situation, I think it's nothing more than a plot-device to make things consistent as Jail had cited great interest in Fate/Erio beforehand during the first RF6 mission, but suddenly got mellowed of that interest over Type-Zero in the attack with Tre/Sette only trying to persuade rather than capture as it was apparently not in mission-plan in the anime, only for Jail to be re interested again when Fate came bursting in.

They made it consistent, but considering the manga never really retconned the actual attack and mission itself, even if mildly so in the combat and Number's attempts over Project F subjects content, it's irrelevant.

[Kikaifan]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

so short of studying Terran tactics

It seems like sort of a double standard to make the writers' problems exclusively the TSA's problems and not acknowledge that Terran tactics would be equally terrible in their hands.