Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Sol Falling]

Evil|Plushie, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Suzaku believes in 'pacifism' and 'no killing, ever' from. Suzaku believes in doing things the 'right way', but what exactly that 'right way' is is up to him to determine, not the viewers.

Also, from what we've seen in the show so far, it's actually been made pretty clear that the only people whose happiness he is actively pursuing is the Japanese. Suzaku's modus operandi is 'change Britannia from within', so the only way you're going to be able to pin him as a hypocrite is if Suzaku ever does something that purposely makes it more difficult to change Britannia from within.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

the only way you're going to be able to pin him as a hypocrite is if Suzaku ever does something that purposely makes it more difficult to change Britannia from within.

Giving the Britannian Empire the whole Europe on a silver platter would most certainly make it more difficult to change Britannia from within.

Obviously he hasn't finished doing it yet, but Suzaku is well on his way.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Evil|Plushie, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Suzaku believes in 'pacifism' and 'no killing, ever' from. Suzaku believes in doing things the 'right way', but what exactly that 'right way' is is up to him to determine, not the viewers.

Also, from what we've seen in the show so far, it's actually been made pretty clear that the only people whose happiness he is actively pursuing is the Japanese. Suzaku's modus operandi is 'change Britannia from within', so the only way you're going to be able to pin him as a hypocrite is if Suzaku ever does something that purposely makes it more difficult to change Britannia from within.

I never said Suzaku never killed people. But he does have the belief of not endangering innocent lifes. And what exactly the right way is is not for Suzaku to decide. His actions do not just affect himself nor are they only seen by himself. To think that only your own personal character has the right to decide what's right smacks of self-righteousness.

As for the part about Suzaku only actively pursuing Japanese happiness. Please back that up. Did he ever say 'No, I don't want to endanger only japanese lifes? I want the japanese people to be happy?'

And yes, I can pin Suzaku as a hypocrite because he has pretended to possess virtues he does not have and because his words and actions are not consistent with each other. I'm sorry, but that's what a hypocrite is.

[squaresphere]

You know I'm wondering if the change he's looking at is just a metaphor for change only for himself. He's probably the most powerful/influential 11 on the planet and normally I really don't think that would be possible for any other number.

What if the change he has in his mind is that if he can amass power and become a noble then his "change" has been successful.

He can't change the world for everyone, but he can change it in relation to himself.

[Airi]

Originally Posted by squaresphere

You know I'm wondering if the change he's looking at is just a metaphor for change only for himself. He's probably the most powerful/influential 11 on the planet and normally I really don't think that would be possible for any other number.

What if the change he has in his mind is that if he can amass power and become a noble then his "change" has been successful.

He can't change the world for everyone, but he can change it in relation to himself.

This is what YOU think...
At least wait for some information before jumping to conclusions

[Blue_Mercy]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

I never said Suzaku never killed people. But he does have the belief of not endangering innocent lifes. And what exactly the right way is is not for Suzaku to decide. His actions do not just affect himself nor are they only seen by himself. To think that only your own personal character has the right to decide what's right smacks of self-righteousness.

As for the part about Suzaku only actively pursuing Japanese happiness. Please back that up. Did he ever say 'No, I don't want to endanger only japanese lifes? I want the japanese people to be happy?'

And yes, I can pin Suzaku as a hypocrite because he has pretended to possess virtues he does not have and because his words and actions are not consistent with each other. I'm sorry, but that's what a hypocrite is.

Very accurate post; I still think it's funny for a character that once said "I'm in the army so people won't die" to now have the title White God of Death.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Giving the Britannian Empire the whole Europe on a silver platter would most certainly make it more difficult to change Britannia from within.

Obviously he hasn't finished doing it yet, but Suzaku is well on his way.

I dunno...depends on what kind of change Suzaku wants to implement. Let's say Suzaku wants to reduce racism. The race issue between the Japanese and Britannians is pretty clear, but seeing as the Britannians are themselves of European descent, that's not going to be an issue on that end. In that manner, I could even argue that Suzaku is helping to reduce racism in Britannia by subjugating and demonstrating his superiority over Europeans, who are of the same ancestry as Britannians.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

I never said Suzaku never killed people. But he does have the belief of not endangering innocent lifes. And what exactly the right way is is not for Suzaku to decide. His actions do not just affect himself nor are they only seen by himself. To think that only your own personal character has the right to decide what's right smacks of self-righteousness.

Self-righteousness doesn't have anything to do with hypocrisy, which is what we're discussing here. What I'm saying is that you can't call Suzaku a hypocrite for going against things he hasn't actually said, and many of the things you claim Suzaku is going against aren't actually things that Suzaku has actually said.

As for the part about Suzaku only actively pursuing Japanese happiness. Please back that up. Did he ever say 'No, I don't want to endanger only japanese lifes? I want the japanese people to be happy?'

Sorry, your wording is a bit confusing there. Suzaku doesn't want to endanger any lives at all if he could help it, but he has never said that he wouldn't kill Japanese (or anybody else for that matter). And although I can't remember if Suzaku has ever explicitly stated 'I want the Japanese to be happy', it's pretty implicit when he says 'I want to change Britannia from within.' Why else would he want to change Britannia? He's got a pretty cushy job already, so it's not for his own sake, and Suzaku should obviously be more biased towards his own country than other numbered territories.

And yes, I can pin Suzaku as a hypocrite because he has pretended to possess virtues he does not have and because his words and actions are not consistent with each other. I'm sorry, but that's what a hypocrite is.

Alright, so here I'm going to have to ask you what those 'virtues' are. Please make a complete list, because the ones I remember you mentioning in your earlier posts weren't actually ones that Suzaku pretended to have.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Very accurate post; I still think it's funny for a character that once said "I'm in the army so people won't die" to now have the title White God of Death.

It's actually not too difficult a paradox to resolve. All you have to do is consider who Suzaku means by 'people'. From what I've gathered, the 'people' Suzaku was talking about were Japanese who cooperated with Britannia and, to a lesser extent, innocent Britannians.

[evil|plushie]

Man, it seems like Knights of Rounds are uber imbal, if one person can suddenly turn the tide of battle like that. Doesn't EU have any of it's own uber knights?

[Tormenk]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Very accurate post; I still think it's funny for a character that once said "I'm in the army so people won't die" to now have the title White God of Death.

Well that shows just how much Suzaku's changed from way back when he said. The title is an external conference to him anyway; I'm more interested in hearing how he justifies his current actions, if ever.

At least he's not called the White Devil.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Man, it seems like Knights of Rounds are uber imbal, if one person can suddenly turn the tide of battle like that. Doesn't EU have any of it's own uber knights?

Seeming as how the other powers are late in KMF development, probably due to the later dates that they start deploying KMFs as a possible lack of capable pilots in that area.

As for the Knights, just imagine when they start engaging the Order. That's going to be hard to justify how the Order can stand and fight when against any multiple members of the Rounds. =/

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Self-righteousness doesn't have anything to do with hypocrisy, which is what we're discussing here. What I'm saying is that you can't call Suzaku a hypocrite for going against things he hasn't actually said, and many of the things you claim Suzaku is going against aren't actually things that Suzaku has actually said.

So Suzaku didn't say that things should be done the right way? And that he didn't want innocents to die? And as Blue_Mercy quoted 'I'm in the army so people won't die'? Cause if he has, he's a hypocrite.

And the self-righteous comment was aimed at you thinking that only Suzaku can determine what's right.

Sorry, your wording is a bit confusing there. Suzaku doesn't want to endanger any lives at all if he could help it, but he has never said that he wouldn't kill Japanese (or anybody else for that matter). And although I can't remember if Suzaku has ever explicitly stated 'I want the Japanese to be happy', it's pretty implicit when he says 'I want to change Britannia from within.' Why else would he want to change Britannia? He's got a pretty cushy job already, so it's not for his own sake, and Suzaku should obviously be more biased towards his own country than other numbered territories.

You can try and retcon what Suzaku has said, but the truth of the matter again is that Suzaku has never said he wants to work specifically for the advantage of the japanese. No, all his rhetoric and statements have always been general, about justice, about equality, about people not dying. He's never once stated that 'as long as the japanese are being treated okay, I'm happy'. Instead, he's given the impression that he's trying to change the system from within so everyone is happy.

Alright, so here I'm going to have to ask you what those 'virtues' are. Please make a complete list, because the ones I remember you mentioning in your earlier posts weren't actually ones that Suzaku pretended to have.

Again, he likes to think he's doing things the right way. He has the virtue of not wanting to kill innocents or fleeing JLF members. (not that he wouldn't have anyway). He likes to think he joined the army so people won't die, when in reality, it could probably be in atonement for his own sins his own 'I want to die' mentality.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

So Suzaku didn't say that things should be done the right way? And that he didn't want innocents to die? And as Blue_Mercy quoted 'I'm in the army so people won't die'? Cause if he has, he's a hypocrite.

And the self-righteous comment was aimed at you thinking that only Suzaku can determine what's right.

Suzaku said that things should be done the right way. Do you know what Suzaku means by 'the right way'? The only 'right way' Suzaku is going to stick to is what he thinks is the right way, so you have to think about Suzaku's actions from the perspective of his own values to able to judge whether he's a hypocrite or not.

I don't really see how wanting something makes you a hypocrite.

As for the 'I'm in the army so people won't die', see the edit to my previous post.

You can try and retcon what Suzaku has said, but the truth of the matter again is that Suzaku has never said he wants to work specifically for the advantage of the japanese. No, all his rhetoric and statements have always been general, about justice, about equality, about people not dying. He's never once stated that 'as long as the japanese are being treated okay, I'm happy'. Instead, he's given the impression that he's trying to change the system from within so everyone is happy.

lol okay, so Suzaku wants everybody to be happy. Now think about this: which group of people is, in general, the most unhappy in the Code Geass universe right now? From Suzaku's perspective, probably the Japanese, right?

Again, he likes to think he's doing things the right way. He has the virtue of not wanting to kill innocents or fleeing JLF members. (not that he wouldn't have anyway). He likes to think he joined the army so people won't die, when in reality, it could probably be in atonement for his own sins his own 'I want to die' mentality.

'k, so what you're saying here is that Suzaku claims he has these virtues:

-Thinks he does things the right way
-Doesn't want to kill innocents
-Fights so that people don't die

and his actions show that he actually doesn't?

In that case, in order to prove that he's a hypocrite, you're going to have to prove that:

-Suzaku doesn't actually think he does things the right way
-Suzaku actually wants to kill innocents
-Suzaku is fighting so that people die

lol 'k, good luck with that.

[Ransom]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As far as Lelouch goes, the only point I remember where his desire to be a monster actually led to any questionable deaths was episode 15's sacrifice of the JLF?

In my view, he's basically using the entire nation of Japan as a sacrifice to accomplish a very personal objective. They don't really come more monstrous than that.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

In that case, in order to prove that he's a hypocrite, you're going to have to prove that:

-Suzaku doesn't actually think he does things the right way
-Suzaku actually wants to kill innocents
-Suzaku is fighting so that people die

lol 'k, good luck with that.

You are upsiding down the definition of hypocrisy you know.
Hypocrisy doesn't involve one doing the opposite of what s/he claims. Actually, the person claims/displays virtues and such that s/he doesn't follow.

The difference is huge here.

There is also no need to prove this point, as Mao's arc and the subsequent scenes involving Suzaku in both seasons show that his actions is completely opposite to what he says (see especially Vallen's post here). When someone does things which are conflicting with his own ideal, he is either hypocrite, naive or very stupid.

And please, you don't have to display disdain and superiority to debate and prove your point. please be civil.

[Sol Falling]

alright, sorry for my rudeness then. As far as proving that somebody doesn't follow their claims goes, though, you basically have to show that they've done the opposite of what they claim. For the purposes here, actions can go basically one of three ways: in support of the claim, against the claim, or unrelated to the claim altogether. That last category isn't really relevant to the discussion, though, leaving 'supporting the claim' and 'against the claim' as the only options.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As far as proving that somebody doesn't follow their claims goes, though, you basically have to show that they've done the opposite of what they claim. For the purposes here, actions can go basically one of three ways: in support of the claim, against the claim, or unrelated to the claim altogether. That last category isn't really relevant to the discussion, though, leaving 'supporting the claim' and 'against the claim' as the only options.

...I simply can't agree with that statement.
Basically, one must do the exact opposite of one statement to show they don't follow it?
Then, does that mean people who are against death penalty are still under this ideal if they are in front of a public execution without doing any protest and so? (might be a bad example, but heh...).
Silence or inactivity doesn't equal to concent at all. Such case is either hypocrisy (as chickening out when the ideal should be claimed out loud) or cowardise.

In our case, I can't see how Suzaku acting as faithfully for the Britannia empire would actually match the "change the empire from within".
Basically, he is of course directly causing the empire to go worse, but much like Vallen said, it is indirectly the case, and he does NOTHING to actually change the empire from within. If britannia rules the world, it would be the exact opposite of what Suzaku said.

[Divinegundam]

Just finished watching all of season 1 this past weekend and R 01 and 02. I will agree with evil|plushie about Suzaku. It's really not that hard to see.

I really like to see how he can change Britannia from the inside. Yeah sure Emperor Britannia is going to change

Suzaku: I'll conquer this country, kill and subjugate these people but could you not be so bad to them...Please


IMO He is still that naive 11 year the murdered his father.

[Valerian Mengsk]

Hmmm, judging from the general tone of the forum arguing that he is not one as of R2 seems to be pretty unpopular, but I'll try anyway.

Okay, Suzaku believes(ed?) that changing the system from within will bring about a beneficial change in policy towards the Japanese by the Britannia government, leading to fewer restrictions, more independence, beginning the process of Elevens taking the path to becoming full-fledged Brittanians, all in the sake of peace.

Am I correct?

To do do so he enters into the military of an empire that closely resembles Imperial Rome in operation, class differentiation, policy, and political leadership.
(Side-note: In fact the Romans were far more ruthless in suppressing rebellions then even the Britannians, but I doubt Sunrise could legally depict that amount of carnage for public television)

As a member of this military organization, in order to gain rank and recognition he performs extraordinary tasks, even fighting against his own countrymen who are trying to free Japan. Why does he do this, because as a child, he watched as the monster of the Britannian military crush his country like an ant and leave it in ruin. We all know what he did then to stop any further destruction, so why does it surprise you that he is willing to go even further lengths to ensure the peace and livelihood of Japan. Suzaku believes that rebelling is impossible, and will only create more destruction.

How is he being a hypocrite? As for his unwillingness to kill, he displayed how powerful that conviction is to us all when he killed his own father years before. In truth that sentiment pales before his larger conviction for peace at any cost.

Suzaku is completely willingly to kill, betray, etc. anyone or anything in order to bring about what he sees as the most likely avenue to peace, true peace. And in his mind the peace is the Britannian Empire.

Now I'm not saying that his reasoning isn't flawed, but he damn well isn't being a hypocrite.

But just watch folks, I'm just waiting for him to do something that completely disproves my argument within the next 5-6 episodes.

Spoiler for My personal opinion of Suzaku:

BTW: I like the new Suzaku, but then again IMO he was always a villan.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Valerian Mengsk

Okay, Suzaku believes(ed?) that changing the system from within will bring about a beneficial change in policy towards the Japanese by the Britannia government, leading to fewer restrictions, more independence, beginning the process of Elevens taking the path to becoming full-fledged Brittanians, all in the sake of peace.

Am I correct?

Nope. Japan can go ahead and burn for all Suzaku cares.

And Suzaku doesn't particularly think he's going to be the one causing change, it's more like allowing Britannia to continue as is will lead to reform/change in the long run. It's the opposite stance of Lelouch, who believes destroying Britannia and instituting new people in the position of rulers will lead to reform/change in the long run.

Suzaku is just the Knight of Seven and Lelouch is just the rebel Zero, they don't have any greater aspirations than those. In the end, they're betting on others to cause the actual changes in the government.

[Divinegundam]

Spoiler for My personal opinion of Suzaku:

BTW: I like the new Suzaku, but then again IMO he was always a villan.

[/QUOTE]

True i think this the main reason why this debate goes on if people see him a such; it will make everything else fall right into place.

[Ransom]

I think trying to shoehorn a character into a 'villain' role kinda misses the whole point of the show. There's no white hat/black hat stuff going on here; even the monologue bit about "evil done with good intentions and good done with evil intentions" is a gross oversimplification. I might find Lelouch to be a reprehensible character, but I'm hardly going to call him the antagonist of the show; is an anti-hero still a villain? And while Suzaku might be Lelouch's antagonist, the writers clearly have much more sympathy for him than that label suggests.