Anime Saimoe Tournament 2008 (Japan)

[DragoonKain3]

Which is better, an tournament that let's the 'true anime fans' express their feelings, or an moe tournament striving to invite as many and diverse group of voters as possible?

The latter, mainly because I'm very much against discrimination, regardless how small. Must be the byproduct of being the scapegoat many times in j-moe, where countless times the extreme part of 2ch has blamed international votes for losing, and wanting to ban them because of it. As such, I welcome any and all fans of moe, no matter how 'rabid' or the other way around, be they male or female, adult or non-adult, hardcore anime watcher or casual fan who only watches a few show, to join in fun.

Not to mention such a vague term like 'true anime fan' would be very hard to define...

Sure, there's some downsides, like faction domination. Then again, it isn't that much different from j-moe, where for a time it was dominated by two or three factions, though to be fair this season it seems there's only two... those with Nanoha, and those against Nanoha, but I digress. But hey, the larger the faction, the less the unity and conformity of the faction, which means if you're pitting them against each other, the outcome is far from clear.

Of course, the biggest one, as you have said, would be the eclipsing of some of the less popular shows. But hey, it's only natural, because the more people you get, the more the tourney is about the character getting the most love, rather than the least hated. After all, those who participate into strategic/hate voting would be the most 'rabid', and the more people you get to participate, the less the ratio is of rabid to non-rabid voters, and thus their 'hate' is less of an impact as you get more voters.

[LazyCanuck]

i may be new to all of this, but for the most part i find only Jsaimoe as the good one, sure they ban massive numbers of areas and whatever, but the mere fact that you have to wait 1-2 hours for a voting code proves that its only the real fans that are voting, i dont think many casual fans would bother to open the code page and wait for 2 hours to vote.


I have not looked much at Kmoe for a few reasons, 1, my two favs are not there cause of airing limitations, i took one look at teh ridiculously large number of code geass girls that made it farily far and i was turned off quite fast, and i cant help at all but just laugh out loud at how far RUKIA made it in a sai>MOE< tournament.

i understand the reasoning for her making it far as wontenk was kind enough to explain the way Kmoe voters vote. As far as i know its much easier to vote in Kmoe then Jmoe, in such many random fans can be rallied together and vote for one show like CG even if barely like 2 girls from that show are even remotely moe, they vote for them for the mere fact they are from CG, and again for the case of Rukia, bleach is watched by so many people around the anime world that far to many people are voting for her just because she from bleach. I also didnt relly get the "the females vote for the strong female!!!" because Rukia is weak compared to alot of others but sure ok, but shes not moe, i've seen all 250~ whatever episodes and i cant think of any single moment she showed moe to me :S



Edit: i dunno how much you can use the factions ruining the tournament as an excuse since both systems have big factions, but i feel the way Jmoe runs it shows that more of the "true fans" liked the Nanoha series, the rozen maiden series, etc

Edit2: i almost forgot, the other main issue i had with Kmoe was the fact of how easy it is to vote that a bloody 5 second cameo character (Miku) makes it so far, i'm glad to see that anime fans think that 3 seasons of told moe (i have yet to watch Aria but i plan to so i'm only going off what i've heard) is not enough to beat a 5 second fake cameo character. If Kmoe puts Kyonko in the super best moe or whatever its called you can pretty much say there is your winner, no offense but its going to be a joke...

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by wontaek

A question to all.

Which is better, an tournament that let's the 'true anime fans' express their feelings, or an moe tournament striving to invite as many and diverse group of voters as possible?

The former. Quality over quantity. The more voters, the more inclined the majority of voters are to be prone to watching fewer anime. A moe tournament would only be truly fair if all voters have watched every series listed in said tournament. Ofcourse, that's impossible, but the closer a tournament can get to that criteria, the better. The farther it gets, the more it becomes a mere popularity contest where series hype wins out over moe and that's basically what most(if not all) moe tournament reduce to, unfortunately. Saimoe has It's shortcomings as well because tactical voting virtually overwhelms the voting pool and reduces the tournaments credibility of having a "most moe" champion, significantly.

[LeviathanDarkly]

Which is better, an tournament that let's the 'true anime fans' express their feelings, or an moe tournament striving to invite as many and diverse group of voters as possible?

Definitely the first one, because if indeed

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

any and all fans of moe, no matter how 'rabid' or the other way around, be they male or female, adult or non-adult, hardcore anime watcher or casual fan who only watches a few show

will "join the fun" then we'll see poor results, since most western people have poor taste and a closed mind.
We will only see bleach and naruto characters at the top.

[wontaek]

Is there any way to improve these moe tournaments?

[Suzuran]

Personally I think that people need to remember that this is a moe CHARACTER contest and not a SERIES contest.

[LazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by Suzuran

Personally I think that people need to remember that this is a moe CHARACTER contest and not a SERIES contest.

the problem is far to many people dont care, they will come in vote for their favorite series and move on without even really knowing what the hell they just voted for

Originally Posted by wonteak

Is there any way to improve these moe tournaments?

yeah, get every single voter to watch every single series, sorry if that sounds rude, i'm not trying to be but honestly that is the only way that any moe tournament will stop being so series biased

Originally Posted by LeviathanDarkly

will "join the fun" then we'll see poor results, since most western people have poor taste and a closed mind.
We will only see bleach and naruto characters at the top.

Orihime for Saimoe 2009!!!!one111!

[Ithekro]

will "join the fun" then we'll see poor results, since most western people have poor taste and a closed mind.
We will only see bleach and naruto characters at the top.

That seems like an inaccurate shot in the dark based on Kmoe and ISLM nomination results. Which are both open contests with limited bans based on abuse of the system.

KyoAni domination perhaps in the short term, but at least those shows do have moe in them.

As for which is better. I can't say for sure. I liked the round robin style of ISML because everyone would eventually face everyone else...one on one. If it needs an hour wait for a code, that might discourage some of the "just for the lulz" crowd. But other than that I don't see an issue with international voting in these tournaments.

(Though I will admit that the one hour waiting didn't stop SaiGAR from being killed, probably by 4chan)

[LazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

That seems like an inaccurate shot in the dark based on Kmoe and ISLM nomination results.

how much is Kmoe influenced by north america? i have no idea.



as for ISML, its not really that large of a group of people who vote in that yet since its onyl the first year, the nonminations period was done by a not that large number of people as far as i know, please correct me if i'm wrong, but looking back at teh first few necklace periods there was hardly any voters, and teh ones who did vote were smart anime fans (for the most part anyway), so its no suprise that no bleach or naruto girls made it at all, give ISML anothe year or two to get widly known in north america and i would not be shocked to see a bleach or Naruto girl in the contest

[DragoonKain3]

Well, so far, being largely accessible by anyone hasn't hurt anyone.

I mean, you don't see Bleach or Naruto dominating in ISML, whose nominating and voting scheme is much less restrictive than either tourney. And as mintham would attest, the majority of the voters there are indeed North American.

And even in K-moe, each of the 'major' factions are down to only ONE contestant, with the exception of Higurashi who has 2 (of which they can attribute to luckily good match-ups more than anything else).

Really now, Rukia might not be moe to me (orihime on the other hand...), but to my eyes, she's no different than Shana, another kick-ass female who also has a 'softer' side to her. So if Shana deserves a spot in the moe tourneys, then why not Rukia?


Digging deeper, this 'elitist' attitude is exactly what I'm trying to prevent. How far are you guys willing to draw the line? Don't you ever consider that you yourself might be 'on the other side of the line', and thus be banned from voting? Because really now, there are some hardcore otaku out there who HAS seen everything under the sun, and would very happily like to kick us 'uninformed heathens' from j-moe if s/he had his/her way...

[KaneDragon]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Is there any way to improve these moe tournaments?

Internet + different opinions + ambiguity of "moe" = rage, every time, guaranteed. The only way to improve things is to somehow have all the votes go your way.

[LazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Well, so far, being largely accessible by anyone hasn't hurt anyone.

Really now, Rukia might not be moe to me (orihime on the other hand...), but to my eyes, she's no different than Shana, another kick-ass female who also has a 'softer' side to her. So if Shana deserves a spot in the moe tourneys, then why not Rukia?

Ok so the blunt point of the two is similiar i'll admit that, they both kick as, they both use swords, and whatever, i cant explain it that well at all but i see absolutely nothing in Rukia, where as i see alot in Shana, I would doubt very much that you would find many people who would compare Shana and Rukia like you have, but i could be wrong, I no expert on this stuff :P

Digging deeper, this 'elitist' attitude is exactly what I'm trying to prevent. How far are you guys willing to draw the line? Don't you ever consider that you yourself might be 'on the other side of the line', and thus be banned from voting? Because really now, there are some hardcore otaku out there who HAS seen everything under the sun, and would very happily like to kick us 'uninformed heathens' from j-moe if s/he had his/her way...

I dont see it as being Elitist, i see it as real voters voting for real characters, mabye there is a good reason why both Tournaments exist, Jmoe can be the one that real voters vote in thus the girl who wins is the real winner, and Kmoe can be who the mass population thinks is the real winner, we got both of what everyone wants i guess

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by Wikipedia, but fixed

Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes (such as watching the vast majority of anime shows) — are those whose views votes on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight

That's what it means for having 'real voters voting for real characters' mean, sorry to say.

[LazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

That's what it means for having 'real voters voting for real characters' mean, sorry to say.

hm Ok i'll agree with that then, call this the Elitist tournament then, but i have a much easier time accepting when a favorite looses in Jmoe then in Kmoe when its animes fan who have a much larger area of knowledge of anime. Like i said i believe that is why Jmoe and Kmoe both exist, if you dont want to take part in an elitist contest and you want to see what the average fan thinks, you have Kmoe, if you want winners of more knowledgeable fans then take part in Jmoe

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Because really now, there are some hardcore otaku out there who HAS seen everything under the sun, and would very happily like to kick us 'uninformed heathens' from j-moe if s/he had his/her way...

But then you will still have to think how many of them are following a fandom, a cult or a whatever.

It may be classic to say that there isn't a right or wrong answer here but that's how I feel. I think it is important for both to be at balance.

"Which is better, an tournament that let's the 'true anime fans' express their feelings, or an moe tournament striving to invite as many and diverse group of voters as possible?"

"Why can't they both happen?" Is a question I would ask.
But like a lot of things, they really can't no matter how much you try to sugar coat it. Just like how I view the olympics as an event that "isn't just sports", but those aspects don't bother me.

When you are with a lot of people competing for different (or similar) goals, there is no such thing as fair play imo.

Were I stand is that I wouldn't want to restrict anyone and can only hope that they do vote "with their gut feelings".

[minhtam1638]

I saw ISML, and I saw my name, so I'm inclined to answer the question. However, everyone who has already answered basically stated what I would have said, at least from the voting perspective. I'll give an admin take.

J Saimoe's system is indeed intent to block out the more casual random voters, as they won't really be waiting two hours to get a code. This is a place where actual hardcore voters can take priority over others, and therefore, you would think that it really will be the girl who is most moe, not the most popular, who would win the tourney, as it did for 2006. However, lately, this has come under fire, as hardcore voters have more of a sense of passion not only to vote for their favorites but to anti-vote other favorites, which doesn't exactly bend the rules, but it skews the final results dramatically.

However, given that J Saimoe is immensely popular, outside tournaments also wanting to make a name for themselves, including both Korea and ISML, can only make a statement to Japan's Saimoe contest by virtue of participation, hence forth, Korea has the generation code element only without a time wait, and even that cuts out roughly a fifth of potential voters (no Macs). While K Moe does not have a nomination system (not really), its immense international popularity is what makes their contest a true event, and their basis is 50-50.

I've said it time and time again. ISML is still a neophyte project. When I started ISML, I virtually started it from scratch, period, with no PERL experience and very little HTML coding at hand, and going through with the pressure of learning all of the techniques and at the same time running ISML through a very simple basis was tough enough for me to postpone the contest three months, and even when it started, I still didn't have the skills to run it full blown, and my little knowledge of the backstage internet process resulted in the simple easy-to-vote form that ISML has with completely no restrictions.

After six months of regular season experience and a staff with more knowledge than I have, we feel that we're ready to take it to the next level, so I feel that with all the staff that I have, I would be able to continue to build my knowledge and ISML will be as successful as Japan and Korea, but I'm going off-topic here, so back to the point.

Is there any way to improve these moe tournaments - yes, and I have a feeling I know exactly how to go about it. If we are going to go by the hardcore vs. popularity route, why not take both? Keep the simple form that ISML has, but also generate a confirmation page after the vote button is submitted, and if the page is submitted into another form two hours from voting time, the vote could count as double, therefore increasing the voice of the anime fans that actually have the knowledge about the candidates. Even this proposal, however, will have its potential problems, most notably the backlash on those who vote in the 23rd or 24th hour, so the question on whether to do this or not will remain a mystery, but whatever I feel can make the results fair and popular at the same time, I can certainly attempt to try it. For now, however, we have to make due with what we got.

[LeviathanDarkly]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Rukia might not be moe to me (orihime on the other hand...), but to my eyes, she's no different than Shana, another kick-ass female who also has a 'softer' side to her.

I vote on you keep trying.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by LeviathanDarkly

I vote on you keep trying.

Well, I prefer Rukia over Shana.

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by dkz

But then you will still have to think how many of them are following a fandom, a cult or a whatever.

Actually, IIRC the whole 'ban' thing that happened last year started from a guy whose character that lost belonged in a series I haven't heard of, let alone find fansubbed (what I'm pretty sure of was that the show was VERY obscure). And those who translated his words pretty much said that anyone outside of Japan should be banned because they don't know what 'moe' is, with us international voters not able to watch all the shows and thus can't accurately guage voting.

I dunno about anyone else in these forums, but that really rang with my being... because it's the very same line of thinking that I used to have since I practically give every fansubbed series a 3 episode grace period. *hides in shame*

And that's not going into other 2ch posters who said that us international voters were basically block voting a few certain series. And no, it's not just the likes of Kyo-ani or whatever, as they pretty much said that we were the reason why we had a Higurashi vs Hayate final, since they claim we bloc voted for them lol.

[KaneDragon]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Well, I prefer Rukia over Shana.

Either way, there will be flames.