What Defines the Magical Girl Genre?

[Jan-Poo]

Thank you Gamer_2k4 that helped a lot. So...

The subversion seems clear enough at this point.

But can we say in a few words the deconstruction comes when a common narrative trope gets analyzed from a realistic perspective, without the utopistic view often associated with them?

For example Watchmen is a deconstruction of the superheroes, and Don quixote is a deconstruction of the chivalry novels.


On the other side the first episode of Ga-rei zero is definitely a subversion.

But then is Ubiquital really right by saying that Madoka is deconstruction?

Isn't the famous episode 3 actually a subversion of the common trope in magical girls anime that

Spoiler for Madoka episode3:

The magical girls never die.

And can we really say that the tropes are analyzed from a realistic point of view?
It looks more like a dystopic view to me, which would make it a subversion.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Thank you Gamer_2k4 that helped a lot. So...

The subversion seems clear enough at this point.

But can we say in a few words the deconstruction comes when a common narrative trope gets analyzed from a realistic perspective, without the utopistic view often associated with them?

For example Watchmen is a deconstruction of the superheroes, and Don quixote is a deconstruction of the chivalry novels.


On the other side the first episode of Ga-rei zero is definitely a subversion.

But then is Ubiquital really right by saying that Madoka is deconstruction?

Isn't the famous episode 3 actually a subversion of the common trope in magical girls anime that

Spoiler for Madoka episode3:

The magical girls never die.

And can we really say that the tropes are analyzed from a realistic point of view?
It looks more like a dystopic view to me, which would make it a subversion.

Well Madoka isn't generally considered a deconstruction for episode 3 but because of it playing with the trope of when a magical creature offers you powers with no adverse effects or ulterior motives. This is basic trope that gets deconstruction throughout the show.

[Gamer_2k4]

I guess I always kind of have the feeling (right or wrong) that subversion is punchier, while deconstruction is more drawn out. In other words, a deconstruction is sort of an amalgam of subversions. From this perspective, Madoka is totally a deconstruction, not a subversion. But a deeper, more relevant reason than that, is that it goes out of its way to answer the "whys," something subversions don't necessarily do.

And, what the heck, just so it's not out in the open...

Spoiler for plot spoilers for madoka:

The fact that the Magical Girl contracts have a very specific and (relatively) rational purpose behind them makes the show a deconstruction. Madoka and the others aren't becoming magical girls for the sake of being magical girls, or to save the world, or any of the "classic" reasons. Their being magical girls is tangential to the true nature of the contract; that is, to provide energy for the universe. Another anime could've given a different requirement for the main characters ("you must pilot this mecha", "you must defeat these enemies", whatever) with the same goal of creating energy. The anime is a deconstruction because the main focus of the show (magical girls) is completely disconnected from the true backstory and plot (gathering energy for the universe). Heck, even when

Spoiler for super spoilers:

Madoka freed all of the magical girls and ascended into godhood, it was the result of her wish, not from any power she had as a magical girl.

The anime also deconstructs Homura's "silent, stoic girl" cliche (by showing what she used to be and how she got to that point), as well as notion that things are right as rain once you become a magical girl (by showing Sayaka's self-destructive tendencies).

Now, to draw another contrast between the two terms, I would say there ARE subversions present in the core of the anime. The fact that Madoka doesn't actually become a magical girl until the final episode totally subverts the expectations set by the title being "Magical Girl Madoka," as well as the expectations from Madoka's inclinations to become one so early on (drawing outfits and such). The event I mentioned in my "super spoilers" section is also a subversion; you expect the final conclusion to come from one thing, and it results from something completely different instead.

[Kagayaki]

Here is a nice reading of Madoka according to the more formal literary criticism definition of deconstruction (instead of the TVTropes variety).

Spoiler for madoka:

http://pontifus.tumblr.com/post/5393849528/mahou-shoujo

Originally Posted by Pontifus

In common parlance, “deconstruction” means something like what tweed-wearing specialists would call metafiction — it’s what a show does when it self-reflects and subverts tropes and such. Traditionally, though, deconstruction is more specific than that; it’s essentially the act of looking for contradictions (usually in the form of binary oppositions), breaking down the barriers between them, and having a go at describing how the resultant reconciled mass of whatever changes or should change our conception of its context. And all this with the caveat that, even if binary oppositions are constructed or false things, the human mind sort of needs them to operate. So it’s a thought experiment, but a useful one in the sense that it encourages you to interrogate uninterrogated aspects of things.

Does Madoka Magica do that? Well, yeah, sort of. But it fabulously gives up at the end.

The binary at issue here is magical girl/foe, which Madoka meticulously unravels until maybe the last episode or two. We even get to see, via Homura’s time travel, several possible versions of a world in which that binary has collapsed. But when Madoka finally does that wish thing, she essentially wishes for a reaffirmation or reconstruction of the binary, a reincarnation of MG/foe that might better survive any attempts to pick it apart. The binary is, in the end, celebrated as being better than the alternative — really, the thing to note is that it’s posited as even possible, albeit only within the confines of this particular setting with its omnipotent Kyubeys.

So, tl;dr, if it were wholly deconstructive, it’d end at episode ten, with Homura futilely repeating those few weeks for all eternity. Which isn’t entirely devoid of hope, really; I always thought that Kyubey’s was a small price to pay to avoid the end of the universe, that Madoka & co.’s sacrifice was a noble one. But what the show seems to do, in the end, is ask us (or require us?) to appreciate the tropes it kicks around. Because this.

I suspect there’s also a more important binary on Madoka’s chopping block: girl/woman. But I’ll leave that one for someone better qualified.

[Triple_R]

On what Kagayaki linked to on Madoka Magica

Spoiler for Madoka Magica spoilers:

I personally would have absolutely hated the "endless time loop of hell" ending for Madoka Magica that was suggested there, and would have found it very bleak, hopeless, tragic, and perhaps most importantly, dissatisfying.

That being said, Kagayaki links to a very important point here, and I thank him for it.

In the end, Madoka reconstructs precisely what it had just deconstructed. This is why I would caution those who promote Madoka as a total deconstruction. It isn't, really. It's a deconstruction and a reconstruction all in one, and that's much of the reason why I love it.

If it was a deconstruction alone, I probably would have hated it, as I am a magical girl fan.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

On what Kagayaki linked to on Madoka Magica

Spoiler for Madoka Magica spoilers:

I personally would have absolutely hated the "endless time loop of hell" ending for Madoka Magica that was suggested there, and would have found it very bleak, hopeless, tragic, and perhaps most importantly, dissatisfying.

That being said, Kagayaki links to a very important point here, and I thank him for it.

In the end, Madoka reconstructs precisely what it had just deconstructed. This is why I would caution those who promote Madoka as a total deconstruction. It isn't, really. It's a deconstruction and a reconstruction all in one, and that's much of the reason why I love it.

If it was a deconstruction alone, I probably would have hated it, as I am a magical girl fan.

Spoiler for Madoka:

I found it was more of a failed deconstruction instead of a deconstruction then reconstruction. Basically while it deconstructed the magical girl system it still relied on that same idealist reasoning in the system to bail itself out, i.e wishing for noble things and good things will bring about good things which was the very thing it was deconstructing and subverting before.

I found the fact they couldn't make it work any other way in the end as why I lost all respect for the show. It went out of my top 10 because of the last episode to basically irrelevant. Not that I don't love Magical girl shows but I'd prefer them played straight if you're going to just chicken out in the end when you try something that ambitious.

[Chiibi]

To me, magical girls have to have a transformation sequence or a costume change and they actually need to use magic. People call shows like Fancy Lala and Full Moon "magical girl" series but I don't really consider them as such because neither girl is a magic user.

I also think a magical girl is different from a witch or sorceress. Like Lina Inverse can use magic but Slayers is definitely not considered a magical girl series. I don't really count Shakugan No Shana as a magical girl series either....though I'm not sure why, really. It just doesn't feel like one. lol Perhaps because Shana doesn't actually perform...."spells"....she just has her sword and can use fire. She feels more like a warrior. But so does Youko from Devil Hunter Youko....and she IS classified as a magical girl.

So yeah....trying to come up with an explanation to why Shana is not a magical girl series is.....difficult.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

So yeah....trying to come up with an explanation to why Shana is not a magical girl series is.....difficult.

Let's see...
1) No cute animal mascot
2) No fancy costume
3) She doesn't actually save anyone or make people happy. She kills monsters and replaces their victims with temporary clones that fade away and are forgotten. Shana herself is cynical and jaded. There's no happiness or reward in a Flame Haze's job.

[Archon_Wing]

Man, it seems these terms are pretty damned arbitrary.

Then again, I see most genre defining terms as pretty worthless, as many a term gets thrown around like nothing (slice of life, etc). Or something like moe, people can't agree at all on that it seems.

[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Spoiler for Madoka:

I found it was more of a failed deconstruction instead of a deconstruction then reconstruction. Basically while it deconstructed the magical girl system it still relied on that same idealist reasoning in the system to bail itself out, i.e wishing for noble things and good things will bring about good things which was the very thing it was deconstructing and subverting before.

I found the fact they couldn't make it work any other way in the end as why I lost all respect for the show. It went out of my top 10 because of the last episode to basically irrelevant. Not that I don't love Magical girl shows but I'd prefer them played straight if you're going to just chicken out in the end when you try something that ambitious.

Spoiler for madoka, and perhaps off topic by now:

Nobody said the magical girl system was being deconstructed, and I never said that Madoka was enjoyable or not enjoyable (which is a completely off topic discussion).

The fact that magical girls become witches is what is being used to deconstruct magical girl/enemy, not the thing being deconstructed. We're not arguing that wishing is being deconstructed either (you could make that case, but that would be an unrelated argument). In this case, the omnipotent wishing is being used to do the reconstruction. Obviously, there are many ways to read the show, and many other binaries that can be deconstructed. Pontifus, Triple_R, and I are just talking about one of them.

When we say Madoka is a deconstruction, then a reconstruction, we're using the literary criticism definition of deconstruction. In that definition, you can't deconstruct one thing. You deconstruct a pair of binary opposites, often where one is generally considered "better" than the other. Deconstruction is a thought experiment that says, "What would the world be like if these two things that we claim to be different were actually the same?"

So if Urobuchi sat down trying to deconstruct magical girl/enemy, he would say, "What would the world be like if there was no distinction between magical girls and the foes they're fighting?" Now, dark magical girls certainly exist in other works, so the logical thing to do would be to make the magical girls actually the same people as the witches. One way to do that is for the magical girls to turn into the witches, and that's what Urobuchi went with.

[Kaijo]

One thing to take note of, to get things back on track.... meanings change. The meanings and definitions of words and terms change over the years, slowly evolving bit by bit. So what someone might consider mahou shoujo today, is not quite the same that the next generation will.

There are probably people out there who are adamant that Sailor Moon isn't mahou Shoujo, because she's fighting evil people and there's more than one girl. "Magical girl implies just one girl, like Sally the Witch! And they use their magic for every day stuff! This stuff today isn't TRUE classical mahou shoujo!"

What would you say to such people?

So it's one thing I urge thought and caution on. We're always tempted to say our view is the correct one, and they changed it, now it sucks. Anyone familiar with the Transformers fandom, probably remembers the negative "Trukk not Munky" reaction in response to finding out Optimus was going to be a gorilla in Beast Wars.

Things change, evolve. And old people always think that they are the ones who listened to music, while kids today just listen to crass noise. It's called "getting older" but also heralds shades of elitism, ie, "I'm a TRUE fan because I liked it the way it was! But all these new people are n00bs and everyone coming in is ruining it!"

For myself, I can only then phrase these classifications as my opinion. I don't want to come across as old or elitist. Whether change is good or bad, is solely in our own mind. If a lot of people like something, such as Nanoha Force amounts of older women with mecha-like attachments pulling their magic for energy, then the genre will evolve and change.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

There are probably people out there who are adamant that Sailor Moon isn't mahou Shoujo, because she's fighting evil people and there's more than one girl.

You're KIDDING me.....

That's...........

I mean, WHAT!?

Sailormoon defines the mahou shoujo genre for me, personally.

Fighting evil is WHAT MAHOU SHOUJO DO!!

Sakura...........fights evil/chaos/things that could hurt people.
Ririka.............fights evil
Himeno.........fights evil.
Ahiru.............fights evil.
Jeanne..........fights evil.
Nanoha, Wedding Peach, Mermaid Melody, Pretty Cure, Tokyo Mew Mew... there are so many mahou shoujo series that fight evil, I'm positive there's way more of them that fight evil in ratio to the ones who don't!!

1) No cute animal mascot

That's not exactly mandatory.... I can name a few series that don't have 'em.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

3) She doesn't actually save anyone or make people happy. She kills monsters and replaces their victims with temporary clones that fade away and are forgotten. Shana herself is cynical and jaded. There's no happiness or reward in a Flame Haze's job.

Uh... other comments are valid, but Shana does save people if she didn't defeat them more people would certainly be harmed in addition she does heal those who she can after the battle, and repair damages done to the environment.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

Uh... other comments are valid, but Shana does save people if she didn't defeat them more people would certainly be harmed in addition she does heal those who she can after the battle, and repair damages done to the environment.

You know that is not what I mean by saving people. Mahou shoujo generally save actual victims, not just potential victims. After defeating the MotD, everything goes back to normal in a typical mahou shoujo show. In Shana, a victim who has been consumed is permanently dead. And the way she repairs damage after a battle involves sacrificing previous victims who are almost burnt out. A typical mahou shoujo would never sacrifice other people.

[SilverSyko]

I'm not incredibly familiar with the genre, but even with my limited knowledge I think it's easy to say which qualities make a magical girl show...

- Cute young female lead with the majority of the supporting cast being female
- Cute familiar that is usually the one to grant the girl her powers
- Frilly dress outfit that's applied through a somewhat suggestive transformation scene
- Magic is the core method of battle, but at times could branch out to other ways
- Story usually involves defeating some villain or gathering items of some sort
- Target demographic is young girls

Of course the last point has exceptions. I'm a young adult male and yet I'm finding Nanoha StrikerS quite entertaining to watch. It feels like they tried to aim at the male audience with this season unlike the first, and to a lesser extent A's.

Experimentation is risky sometimes but if done right it can really result in a unique and awesome experience. From what I've heard Madoka Magica is like this, and while I have yet to watch it myself, I believe the series would be a good example of that based on what I've heard and considering it's stellar reception.

I'm still waiting for that magical girl lead that's a total badass though. Not sure how long that'll be.~

[Ash Falls Town]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

You're KIDDING me.....

That's...........

I mean, WHAT!?

Sailormoon defines the mahou shoujo genre for me, personally.

Fighting evil is WHAT MAHOU SHOUJO DO!!

You can say this because you're deliberately disregarding shows that don't conform to your world view.
You disregard girls like Full Moon and Fancy Lala but would Mermaid Melody Pitchi Pitchi Pitch exist without their forerunner Creamy Mami?
(There were a couple of scenes where Mami used non transformation magic BTW.)

Shows like Creamy Mami have never not been considered magical girl series.
Also you're using very loose definitions of evil (Sakura) and fights (Ahiru). Yes fighters are more popular now but non fighter still exist (Lil Pri), partial fighters exist (the first and last seasons of Shugo Chara had several episodes with no fighting.) and shows about idols who aren't magical girls are also becoming common (Kirarin Revolution, Pretty Rhythm Aurora Dream).

This last point reduces the amount of idol magical girls because the magic isn't needed anymore.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town

This last point reduces the amount of idol magical girls because the magic isn't needed anymore.

Wait a minute, you're saying that Kirarin Revolution and Pretty Rhythm Aurora Dream are mahou shoujo, and that no magic is needed? I have not watched the shows, but from what I know of them they're not mahou shoujo at all! For lack of a better term, they are idol shows, for lack of a better name for that genre.

[Ash Falls Town]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Wait a minute, you're saying that Kirarin Revolution and Pretty Rhythm Aurora Dream are mahou shoujo, and that no magic is needed? I have not watched the shows, but from what I know of them they're not mahou shoujo at all! For lack of a better term, they are idol shows, for lack of a better name for that genre.

I'm saying exactly the opposite.

Kirarin Revolution and Pretty Rhythm Aurora Dream are NOT magical girl shows but they are idol shows.

The first idol shows were magical girl shows because the girls needed to be kids (like the audience) but old enough to be in show business. To fix this problem the girls were able to age themselves up with magic (in a way that makes them magical girls).

Now days however idol shows WITHOUT magic are being created. Therefore reducing the number of non-fighting magical girls.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town

I'm saying exactly the opposite.

Kirarin Revolution and Pretty Rhythm Aurora Dream are NOT magical girl shows but they are idol shows.

The first idol shows were magical girl shows because the girls needed to be kids (like the audience) but old enough to be in show business. To fix this problem the girls were able to age themselves up with magic (in a way that makes them magical girls).

Now days however idol shows WITHOUT magic are being created. Therefore reducing the number of non-fighting magical girls.

Okay, that's more clear. I was vaguely aware of those, but never did seriously consider them mahou shoujo since the magic was limited to aging up as far as I know.

[4Tran]

If we pare down the Mahou Shoujo genre to its essentials, we can see that historically it's just an extension of the the shoujo genre in general. Instead of stories about girls doing their best to accomplish tasks, it's about girls gaining powers to allow them to do cool things. They are very much wish fulfillment fantasies where the target audience is supposed to identify with the main character.

A lot of newer Mahou Shoujo shows are geared towards a male audience, and so they move away the original concepts. Here, the audience isn't supposed to identify with the magical girls; rather more as subjects of admiration. I don't think that the difference is enough to disqualify such shows as Mahou Shoujo shows, but it's useful to distinguish between the two groups. Perhaps the former can be classified as Classical Mahou Shoujo, and the latter as Shounen Mahou Shoujo.

Looking at the vast majority of Mahou Shoujo titles, a few useful patterns show up:

1. The show should be about a girl (or girls) who uses magic as an empowerment tool. The magic could be classical magic, super science or what have you, but it has to be prominent.

2. This magical power should be unknown in the normal world; with perhaps just a couple of groups aware of its existence.

3. There should be a strong dichotomy between the girl's normal life and her magical life. Almost always, this manifests as a need to keep the magic a secret from friends and family.

Pretty much everything else (transformations, mascots, etc.) can be considered as trappings. Some or most shows will have them, but they aren't an essential part of what makes the Mahou Shoujo part work.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

For all intents and purposes, why isn't Shana considered a magical girl show? Shana is a girl, wields supernatural powers, and even has a bit of a transformation. She's fighting some kind of destructive forces. Personally, I think the traditional approach to mahou shoujo is much too rigid.

The only reason why Shana can be considered a magical girl at all is because she has magical powers. Her show isn't about her to begin with, and she doesn't satisfy the condition of having a normal/magical dichotomy. Her Flame Haze aspect is what she truly is, and everything is subordinate to that. The transformations and what not aren't really defining characteristics of Mahou Shoujo. It's really easier to just regard Shana as a Shounen action show that happens to have a girl with magical powers in it. It's about as much of a Mahou Shoujo show as Twelve Kingdoms.




I'm not trying to pick on Triple_R. I'm responding to these points only because they're a good summation of the debate.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1. Action-oriented with a female lead (Sailor Moon's impact is somewhat lasting here I think)

This shouldn't be necessary, and in fact, Mahou Shoujo show weren't action-oriented until Sailor Moon.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

2. Frilly, pouffy costumes as DonQuigleone pointed out.

3. Transformation scenes.

While both of the above are common conventions, I'm not sure why either of them are necessary. They don't have much to do with the substance of being magical girls, they're just artifacts of how magical girls appear.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

4. Powers explicitly arising from magical and/or supernatural source

Agreed. Although I'd also add sufficiently advanced technology.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

5. Cute familiar (even if evil )

The reason why cute mascots are so common in Mahou Shoujo shows is because it gives a character to explain things to the protagonist, and it serves as a way to discuss magical happenings without revealing the secret identity. In other words, the mascot exists because it is a Mahou Shoujo show rather than it defining it as one.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

6. Female-dominated cast (but can have male characters in major roles).

7. Magical monsters and/or Dark Magical Girls/Witches for enemies.

This is more overly strong influence from Sailor Moon. As long as the show is about a magical girl, there doesn't have to be another female character in the cast, nor does there have to be an enemy to begin with.

Originally Posted by Chiibi

To me, magical girls have to have a transformation sequence or a costume change and they actually need to use magic. People call shows like Fancy Lala and Full Moon "magical girl" series but I don't really consider them as such because neither girl is a magic user.

And yet those shows are entirely about the main characters using their magic. What would be your justification for not including them? For that matter, why do you think that a costume change is required at all? After all, Sally the Witch didn't.

Originally Posted by Chiibi

You're KIDDING me.....

That's...........

I mean, WHAT!?

Sailormoon defines the mahou shoujo genre for me, personally.

Fighting evil is WHAT MAHOU SHOUJO DO!!

When Sailor Moon first came out, it was very different from all the pre-existing Mahou Shoujo shows except for Devil Hunter Yohko. Sailor Moon is the superlative Mahou Shoujo now, but it only defines the genre because it was such a new take on it and because it spawned so many imitators.