Bleach Episode 61 Discussion

[reaction]

I felt that the manga did a rather poor job of explaining Aizen's intentions and history. The anime clearified everything for me.

It was nice to see such an amazing amout of power from Aizen (God mode?). I wonder if Hollow-Ichigo could at least have dealt him some damage...

[Silent_One]

Well according to what he said only as a hollow can they surpass the limits as they are now so hollow Ichigo should be able to beat him easy if he could use the full effect of it.

[Ikorose]

Originally Posted by Silent_One

Well according to what he said only as a hollow can they surpass the limits as they are now so hollow Ichigo should be able to beat him easy if he could use the full effect of it.

Beat him easily? Probably not. Remember, along with mastering the technique of Zanjutsu (Sword techniques), one has to also master the Hakuda, Hohou, and Kidou techniques. All Ichigo has going for him is his newly attained skill of Zanjutsu and Hohou, while Aizen, on the other hand, seems to be extremely proficient at Zanjutsu, Hohou, and Kidou, from what we've seen from him. Ichigo still has a long way to go before coming close to Aizen's level, Hollow or not.

[Silent_One]

I didn't say he could use the full effect but he has the potential too as hollow win easyily because according to Aizen there is limits to his power. In hollow form Aizen could supposedly become more powerfull but atm he can't and Ichigo can.

I guess it would depend on if when he is in hollow form does Ichigo know every thing he can do or not.If he does he would beat Aizen easy in my opinion.Even if not he still would do better then he is doing now you would think right?

[Karedis]

Originally Posted by Ikorose

Beat him easily? Probably not. Remember, along with mastering the technique of Zanjutsu (Sword techniques), one has to also master the Hakuda, Hohou, and Kidou techniques. All Ichigo has going for him is his newly attained skill of Zanjutsu and Hohou, while Aizen, on the other hand, seems to be extremely proficient at Zanjutsu, Hohou, and Kidou, from what we've seen from him. Ichigo still has a long way to go before coming close to Aizen's level, Hollow or not.

Also, it doesn't even seem like Ichigo can control or even summon at will his hollow side. Nonetheless, I'm not even sure what his hollow side is, being only an anime watcher and never spoiling myself by reading what people talk about with the manga. It just seems like Aizen is on a totally different level from Ichigo and all the other shinigami. From what I've seen, there's basically no one out their with the power to oppose Aizen. Bleach is just getting more and more interesting and I'm pretty sad to see that the SS arc is ending soon and fillers will be starting up.

On a side note, what exactly did Matsumoto's shikai do? Kira's ability seemed pretty devastating but when she just look at it and made her soul slayer turn to dust, I couldn't figure out just what was going on. The next scene was just her running off and a defeated Kira looking pretty sad.

[Ikorose]

Originally Posted by Silent_One

IEven if not he still would do better then he is doing now you would think right?

Oh, definitely, he would do better. But I still don't think he'd be able to stand up to Aizen and win, you know?

Originally Posted by Karedis

On a side note, what exactly did Matsumoto's shikai do?

I have no clue. I don't even think they explain that in the manga.

[reaction]

Matsumoto's shikai is Haineko (Ash Cat). It is released by yelling Unare (Growl). It apparently scatters into smoke (similar to Byakura). How did this defeat Kira? I have no clue.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by reaction

Matsumoto's shikai is Haineko (Ash Cat). It is released by yelling Unare (Growl). It apparently scatters into smoke (similar to Byakura). How did this defeat Kira? I have no clue.

Maybe it's somewhat similar to the blood move in Basilisk? The Haineko mist surrounds the enemy and can anytime materialise and unmaterialise into a blade or something from any angle as long as the mist is present.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Ikorose

Beat him easily? Probably not. Remember, along with mastering the technique of Zanjutsu (Sword techniques), one has to also master the Hakuda, Hohou, and Kidou techniques. All Ichigo has going for him is his newly attained skill of Zanjutsu and Hohou, while Aizen, on the other hand, seems to be extremely proficient at Zanjutsu, Hohou, and Kidou, from what we've seen from him. Ichigo still has a long way to go before coming close to Aizen's level, Hollow or not.

I also understand what you are saying, but regardless of everything...Doesn't matter how many techniques and powers you have...A person can beat you with brute strength alone, not saying Aizen can be dealt with this easily, but Ichigo's sheer brute power as a fully energized hollow may just be too powerful regardless of all the special techniques you have...Kenpachi has proved just pure strength and power was enuff for him to become a captain without any techniques or even the ability to possess bankai (hell he even admonishes his underlings for using their special techniques)...So I'm just saying just because you know every technique in the book, you can still lose to someone that just has freakish brute strength and power....

Also this is the general formula of shonen anime

[fierysky]

Originally Posted by Karedis

On a side note, what exactly did Matsumoto's shikai do? Kira's ability seemed pretty devastating but when she just look at it and made her soul slayer turn to dust, I couldn't figure out just what was going on. The next scene was just her running off and a defeated Kira looking pretty sad.

Well as someone already said, Matsumoto's shikai allows her to turn her sword into ash, hence the name "Ash Cat". The only thing going for Kira is that his sword doubles the weight of whatever his sword touches. If Kira manages so block several attacks, his opponent will find their sword very heavy and hard to wield. My guess is, since Matsumoto's sword can turn to ash, that changes everything. Ash is light, even if you were to double the weight each time, it'll take many blows. Also, since it is dust, it is hard to cut and block or even see it. Obviously kira will find himself in trouble and lose.

[Forever]

COuld urahara planned to create hollow ichigo long ago?

Theory
Hougou gives the ability for both shigami and hollow to exist in one body.

EVer since rukia gave ichigo her powers, ichigo gained shigami powers and also the ability to contain a hollow. So urahara purposely used that method regain ichigo powers and planned ichigo to gain both shigami and hollow powers at the same time...

[wingdarkness]

Just thought about this, but does Aizen even know Ichigo has a hollow (ep 61 only)?? He talked about it, but he never said anything about clearly knowing...Also as he was talking about it the camera suspiciously stayed on Renji's corpse (which makes me believe a hollow tag-team may be forming)This is making me wish I actually saved Bleach episodes (I didn't start til ep 47) so I can go back and see the technique that allowed Ichigo to maintain his hollow when he was in that pit...Nevermind the whole Kaien thing inwhich I have my own theories on that I'll keep quiet for now...

[FlyMoto]

Originally Posted by Forever

COuld urahara planned to create hollow ichigo long ago?

Theory
Hougou gives the ability for both shigami and hollow to exist in one body.

EVer since rukia gave ichigo her powers, ichigo gained shigami powers and also the ability to contain a hollow. So urahara purposely used that method regain ichigo powers and planned ichigo to gain both shigami and hollow powers at the same time...

This is VERY possible. Especially if he thought ichigo had the power behind him to do it(which was plainly obvious when he was using rukia's powers).

[Elvanvitar]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Just thought about this, but does Aizen even know Ichigo has a hollow (ep 61 only)?? He talked about it, but he never said anything about clearly knowing...Also as he was talking about it the camera suspiciously stayed on Renji's corpse (which makes me believe a hollow tag-team may be forming)This is making me wish I actually saved Bleach episodes (I didn't start til ep 47) so I can go back and see the technique that allowed Ichigo to maintain his hollow when he was in that pit...Nevermind the whole Kaien thing inwhich I have my own theories on that I'll keep quiet for now...

Well, Aizen seems to know quite a bit about Urahara's techniques. I would imagine that since Ichigo is a human, albeit with a lot of reitsu, Aizen knows that since Ichigo has a shinigami side that he also has a hollow side. Maybe the only way for humans to become a shinigami is to also become a hollow. That's just speculation on my part though.

[KiraDouji]

Hrm, a few people seem to be debating Aizen vs Ichigo, which at this point seems a little fruitless. For example, we have no idea if Aizen is even still a Shinigami by the time he gets Hyougyou, let alone afterwards. Additionally, Ichigo transformed almost into a hollow and then into a shinigami when Urahara essentially killed him (but not? yay for never explained things). Does this mean that Ichigo has no barriers? Does Aizen have any barriers? The point is, we really don't have enough information in the anime or the manga to really get at this discussion. :/

As for the episode itself, while the second half was mostly dialogue, I still think it was wonderfully done. Renji's determination to see this through really shines in this episode as he followed his (albeit sad) pattern of being wtfpwned by every main good/bad guy in the series. The scene wherein he's essentially forcing Zabimaru into that one last attack to give Ichigo a chance at striking Aizen was perfect. I have to say I was really impressed. Especially with the way the music started up. Bankai!Ichigo is running forward towards the ubercrazy!Aizen, with "Number One" playing... your hope's getting up... surely this is the climax- music stops, sword stops by a finger and both Ichigo and Renji are wtfpwned in two seconds kthnxbai.

Perfect moment. XD

Edit:

Originally Posted by Elvanvitar

Maybe the only way for humans to become a shinigami is to also become a hollow.

...???? When a human dies they become a spirit. Said spirit can do a few things.
1) Stick around and eventually become a Hollow.
2) Get eatten by a Hollow and become a Hollow.
3) Become a Shinigami.
4) Have a soul burial performed by a Shinigami on them and move to Rukongai where they still have the possibility of becoming a shinigami.
5) Go to Hell.

If you want to know what happens when someone goes Hollow-->Shinigami or Shinigami-->Hollow, you'll have to read a spoiler. LATEST MANGA SPOILERS - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Spoiler:

Edit by Moderator: Spoilers are NOT allowed in this thread, even in spoiler tags!

If you didn't read the spoiler, suffice to say that, um, this idea is false. >> <<

- Kira

[vhx]

Originally Posted by Forever

COuld urahara planned to create hollow ichigo long ago?

Theory
Hougou gives the ability for both shigami and hollow to exist in one body.

EVer since rukia gave ichigo her powers, ichigo gained shigami powers and also the ability to contain a hollow. So urahara purposely used that method regain ichigo powers and planned ichigo to gain both shigami and hollow powers at the same time...

Except Rukia gave her powers to Ichigo a long time before she got her fake body (Which the thing was inside).

[NoSanninWa]

??

No, she got her fake body in episode 2. She was using the gigai that Uruhara gave her when she showed up in school. It has been devouring her spiritual power ever since. That's the reason that she hadn't regained her strength.

[wingdarkness]

^ Well that has to prove that Urahara had hindsight...He had to know that SS members would come for Rukia after she did such a punishible thing (transfer her powers)...His readiness to teach Ichigo techniques to sneak in SS and save her had to be part of some contingency he planned before hand...What's funny is that he never seemed anxious or overly concearned with the task of saving her (He basically put the ball in Ichigo's court)...Maybe he's just that slick or perhaps he had to let the gigai body be transported to SS for his scenerio to play out ...

[Elvanvitar]

Originally Posted by KiraDouji

...???? When a human dies they become a spirit. Said spirit can do a few things.
1) Stick around and eventually become a Hollow.
2) Get eatten by a Hollow and become a Hollow.
3) Become a Shinigami.
4) Have a soul burial performed by a Shinigami on them and move to Rukongai where they still have the possibility of becoming a shinigami.
5) Go to Hell.

If you want to know what happens when someone goes Hollow-->Shinigami or Shinigami-->Hollow, you'll have to read a spoiler. LATEST MANGA SPOILERS - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Spoiler:

Edit by Moderator: Spoilers are NOT allowed in this thread, even in spoiler tags!

If you didn't read the spoiler, suffice to say that, um, this idea is false. >> <<

- Kira

I'm up to date with the Manga. And yes I know that's what happens when a human dies. But Ichigo has never died. Therefore he shouldn't have shinigami powers. Maybe what Urahara did is the only way for humans that are alive to gain shinigami powers, other than the power transfer method.

[Kawakanai]

I've never read the manga, Anime fan only.

I was curious if there isn't connection between hollow-Ichigo and the one episode with the Rukia flashback to the Lieutenant who died after the hollow merged with him (and consumed his wife)?

That guy looked a lot like Ichigo without the orange hair and seemed to have a similar personality. After watching that ep, I got the impression that current Ichigo is a reincarnation of that lieutenant that died in front of Rukia (explaining Ichigo's super-protectiveness of Rukia). And as a reincarnation, Ichigo's soul is forever melded with that hollow that was in the process of devouring him when the lieutenant was killed. Therefore, Ichigo's soul has always been tainted with a hollow's since the start because of this past history- it's just that he didn't have the power levels for the hollow to 'come out and play' until now.

I also think that this might explain Ichigo's ability to see ghosts from the outset and how he was able to take Rukia's shinigami power so readily at the start of the series, he was a shinigami before.

(As a side note, Ichigo didn't seem too surprised when the mask came out in the fight with Byakyuya a few eps back, so I wonder if he had to confront Hollow-Ichigo at the end of his Bankai practice?)

Again, haven't read the manga and am not looking for manga spoilers but possibilities presented in the Bleach anime thus far.