romantic friendship vs. Yuri

[Triple_R]

It seems that one of the main points of discussion/debate on this thread is...

At what level of closeness or intimacy (broadly speaking, of course) does it seem unrealistic for a relationship between two characters to be strictly platonic?

Different viewers will have different thresholds, but I think it could still prove interesting and illuminating to see where each of us stands on this. So, let's look at some specific examples of popular shows with a lot of girl-girl relationships in them, but little (if any) concrete confirmation of a lesbian relationship.

1) K-On!
2) Love Live!
3) Madoka Magica
4) Lyrical Nanoha
5) Saki
6) Girls und Panzer
7) Mari-Mite
8) ____________________ (feel free to add)


Maybe it would be interesting to see what each of us thinks on each of these shows when it comes to...

A) Definitely Yuri
B) Probably Yuri
C) Probably "just friends"
D) Definitely "just friends"


I'll go first....

1) K-On! - C (though Mugi herself may well be lesbian)
2) Love Live! - B (Kotori's feelings for Honoka, Maki-Nico, I'm iffy after this)
3) Madoka Magica - B (Homura's feelings for Madoka, I'm iffy after this)
4) Lyrical Nanoha - A (Nanoha and Fate, probably Subaru for Teana)
5) Saki - I'm honestly not sure, though the supporting cast has a lot of possible pairings.
6) Girls und Panzer - I never watched enough to say, but I know its popular, so I put it in.
7) Mari-Mite - B/C (Yumi's feelings for Sachiko, the rest I think is platonic).

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by silversongwriter

It should be more clear when they're being ambiguous

Clarity on ambiguity. Wat.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Eragon

"I don't understand why it is so hard to accept that two persons of the opposite sex could feel extremely close to each other and mutually be the most important and loved person of the other without any kind of sexual attraction being involved"

Honestly, up to a point, I would find this a reasonable perspective. So I think your satirical attempt here would in fact be a legitimate non-ironic/sarcastic one under certain circumstances. I've seen male/female relationships in anime that struck me as pretty close, but also platonic.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

Clarity on ambiguity. Wat.

I mean make it less clear I guess... Basically as long as it's not over done you can do a romantic friendship if there's no sexuality and there's nothing too strong suggesting they're in romantic love...

But there's one important thing about yuri subtext that's brushed to the wayside.... the fact it can be funny.

Every girl in Yuru Yuri were lesbians, but none of them got together, all the yuri in that show was meant for humor and fanservice. Yuyushiki was less clear on that, but still used yuri for humor.

I find Yuru Yuri to be the greatest yuri ever made. Aoi Hana was more realistic but it got boring at times. Yuru Yuri is funny

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by silversongwriter

I find Yuru Yuri to be the greatest yuri ever made. Aoi Hana was more realistic but it got boring at times. Yuru Yuri is funny

I largely liked Aoi Hana, but it is admittedly very slow-paced, so I can understand some people finding it boring. So maybe it's giving you a bit of a skewed view of what more clear-cut yuri can be like.

You might like Sakura Trick. I think it has the "funny" aspect you like in yuri shows, while also being much more strongly suggestive.

Strawberry Panic is another show with clear-cut yuri, but also a comedy vibe somewhat similar to Yuru Yuri.

[Eragon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, up to a point, I would find this a reasonable perspective. So I think your satirical attempt here would in fact be a legitimate non-ironic/sarcastic one under certain circumstances. I've seen male/female relationships in anime that struck me as pretty close, but also platonic.

Yeah, contrasted to a fuckton of romantic relationships that are based on interaction shallower than a lake on sun.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

@ jan-poo
There's a point where it stops being Yuri goggles though. Like someone else said, when you tease a relationship, people expect a relationship. If a boy and girl were subject to this, people would call bs.

Reinhard and Kircheis never shared a bed though.

Well obviously there are cases where you can legitimately argued in a sense or another.

But I think a right perspective should take in account the feeling and the context and not just what you see the characters factually doing.

Let's take for example "girlfriends" which was mentioned earlier as one manga that does the "yuri" right.
Funny enough that's also the manga that pushes what can be considered an acceptable behavior between friends to the limit, because these two characters:

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

are in canon absolutely heterosexual.

In the same way Sumika and Kureha in YKA did share the same bed, while both being naked, but I, and others, argue that it still doesn't necessarily mean that they had sex, or that they are lesbians.

Originally Posted by Eragon

"I don't understand why it is so hard to accept that two persons of the opposite sex could feel extremely close to each other and mutually be the most important and loved person of the other without any kind of sexual attraction being involved"

Well that works too if you ask me.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I largely liked Aoi Hana, but it is admittedly very slow-paced, so I can understand some people finding it boring. So maybe it's giving you a bit of a skewed view of what more clear-cut yuri can be like.

You might like Sakura Trick. I think it has the "funny" aspect you like in yuri shows, while also being much more strongly suggestive.

Strawberry Panic is another show with clear-cut yuri, but also a comedy vibe somewhat similar to Yuru Yuri.

I can try checking out Strawberry Panic, but I honestly saw the first two episodes a while ago and thought it was very, very stupid. Sakura Trick is okay.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well obviously there are cases where you can legitimately argued in a sense or another.

But I think a right perspective should take in account the feeling and the context and not just what you see the characters factually doing.

Let's take for example "girlfriends" which was mentioned earlier as one manga that does the "yuri" right.
Funny enough that's also the manga that pushes what can be considered an acceptable behavior between friends to the limit, because these two characters:

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

are in canon absolutely heterosexual.

In the same way Sumika and Kureha in YKA did share the same bed, while both being naked, but I, and others, argue that it still doesn't necessarily mean that they had sex, or that they are lesbians.

I'm pretty sure Kureha and Sumika are lesbians, even if they didn't have sex. But what you showed from that manga reminds me of Nana. There was something like that in that show. Which is another one that does it right.

Also, on a side note. I think I understand why people dislike a lot of it. Kiniro Mosaic for example had no business not being yuri. It's very obvious the two female characters both romantically and sexually love each other, as the main one has a fetish for blonde girls.

Plus, here's where I think it shines. Romantic friendship can be more innocent and cute. Girls in Japan are encouraged to have close relationships with each other until about high school when they're expected to go after boys. A good example of this concept expressed quite literally is in Ultra Maniac. The witch girl is implied to have feelings for her friend. This is because of some magic camera thing, I don't need to explain it... but one of the reactions was "She's such a little kid"... This is why yuri generally has very young and cute female characters rather than the "butch" archetype seen in western portrayals of lesbianism. strong psuedoromantic bonds between girls is looked at as a childhood phase rather than real lesbianism.

And that's why there's a charm to romantic friendships between girls in anime and in Japanese culture in general

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by silversongwriter

Plus, here's where I think it shines. Romantic friendship can be more innocent and cute. Girls in Japan are encouraged to have close relationships with each other until about high school when they're expected to go after boys...strong psuedoromantic bonds between girls is looked at as a childhood phase rather than real lesbianism.

Describing a close friendship as more innocent than a couple in love is like enjoying Spring because it's not as hot as Summer. You used an innate property to justify 'Spring,' but you're not addressing the people who'd prefer 'Summer.' Bringing up the cultural value to explain the lack of concreteness doesn't sound like not caring about the way the media portrays the subject, especially when that value pushes the very thing people are contending.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well obviously there are cases where you can legitimately argued in a sense or another.

But I think a right perspective should take in account the feeling and the context and not just what you see the characters factually doing.

Let's take for example "girlfriends" which was mentioned earlier as one manga that does the "yuri" right.
Funny enough that's also the manga that pushes what can be considered an acceptable behavior between friends to the limit, because these two characters:

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

are in canon absolutely heterosexual.

It doesn't look like we're in disagreement then. I know those two had too much to drink beforehand, while the main couple's status teetered on what Mari considered acceptable. Though I think you undersell just how much we consider context in the first place, because I don't see a legion of Haruhi X Mikuru shippers anywhere.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Different viewers will have different thresholds, but I think it could still prove interesting and illuminating to see where each of us stands on this. So, let's look at some specific examples of popular shows with a lot of girl-girl relationships in them, but little (if any) concrete confirmation of a lesbian relationship.

1) K-On!
2) Love Live!
3) Madoka Magica
4) Lyrical Nanoha
5) Saki
6) Girls und Panzer
7) Mari-Mite
8) ____________________ (feel free to add)


Maybe it would be interesting to see what each of us thinks on each of these shows when it comes to...

A) Definitely Yuri
B) Probably Yuri
C) Probably "just friends"
D) Definitely "just friends"

1. K-On!!--my memory is iffy, but C.
2. Love Live!--B. There's the final story arc of season 1 especially, Maki and Nico are just shy of a B, the rest are above C and somewhere below Maki and Nico.
3. Madoka Magica--B for Madoka and Homura, C for Sayaka and Kyouko, A for post-Rebellion Madoka and Homura despite the...one-sidedness.
4. Lyrical Nanoha--A. NanoFate. Seriously.
5. Saki--Some characters are at B, specifically vanishing girl and the other, the future-seer and her friend from Achiga-hen, and Saki and Nodoka. Others look like they coast on C (although a lot of the games' metaphorical imagery is kinda...)
6. Girls und Panzer--Haven't seen.
7. Maria Watches Over Us--B for Yumi and Sachiko, C for everyone else.
8. Kiniro Mosaic--D. Shinobu's attraction toward Alice and Karen was more like coddling a cute bunny.
9. Is the Order a Rabbit?--A for Syaro toward Rize, C for everyone else.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

Describing a close friendship as more innocent than a couple in love is like enjoying Spring because it's not as hot as Summer. You used an innate property to justify 'Spring,' but you're not addressing the people who'd prefer 'Summer.' Bringing up the cultural value to explain the lack of concreteness doesn't sound like not caring about the way the media portrays the subject, especially when that value pushes the very thing people are contending.

I don't find one better than anime. I think we need both... Both canon yuri and subtext can be done right, and have it be good. It's subjective and there's many different audiances. There are people who want serious lesbian romance, and granted, we do need more of it...
However, some people like yuri only for comic relief/fanservice. Some people find romantic friendship cuter. Or some people prefer something like Noir where the relationship is far more complex and not easy to define. Some people like seeing lesbians more than relating to them. Others like stuff like Cross Ange where lesbians are merely objectified for male pleasure...
Whatever it is, there's a right and wrong way to do each of those and none of objectively better. If you're open minded enough, everything I just mentioned has equal potential to be good.

[Jan-Poo]

Well let's see I'll try it too.

1) K-On! - D (I really don't see anything particularly dubious)
2) Love Live! (Can't judge. I haven't seen this)
3) Madoka Magica - I'm torn between A and B but one-sided on Homura's case. But even if it wasn't A then this would be more a case of insane obsession than romantic friendship.
4) Lyrical Nanoha - It started from C and then became A on Strikers. It probably wasn't supposed to be that kind of relationship in the original draft.
5) Saki - B for Saki and Nodoka. (There might be a few characters that lean more toward A though). I say this because of the complete lack of reactions when they saw each other naked in the public bath. Achiga-hen is almost entirely a D though.
6) Girls und Panzer - D (why is this even in this list?)
7) Mari-Mite (Can't judge. I haven't seen this)

I'll add

8) Hidamari Sketch - A (Hiro and Sae are basically a couple. However sadly this looks like one of those cases of two girls that love each other but will end up going their separate ways and marrying to some guys because that's how it is supposed to be)

[silversongwriter]

[QUOTE=Jan-Poo;5449553]Well let's see I'll try it too.

1) K-On! - D
2) Love Live! N/A
3) Madoka Magica - I would say B or C, but I hear it's pretty much confirmed in the movie, but I ain't seen it.
4) Lyrical Nanoha - N/A
5) Saki - B
6) Girls und Panzer - D
7) Mari-Mite B

I'll add

8) Yama no Susume - B (I'm not sure what they're going to do if there's another season, but it could go either way)

[Eragon]

Being open minded doesn't mean you start accepting offensive shit like cross ange.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Eragon

Being open minded doesn't mean you start accepting offensive shit like cross ange.

I still don't see what's so bad about it?
The story isn't above average, but it's not bad. The characters have issues, but they're not exceptionally bad.
Compared to the average moe slice of life anime that repeats the same character archetypes it's pretty well done... The characters are a hell of a lot more memorable than something like Strike Witches.

Maybe I haven't hit the really bad plot holes yet, but I don't see much wrong with it. That being said, it's a "popcorn anime"... it's not going to go down in history and be considered amazing. But it's not entirely mindless entertainment.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by silversongwriter

I don't find one better than anime. I think we need both... Both canon yuri and subtext can be done right, and have it be good. It's subjective and there's many different audiances. There are people who want serious lesbian romance, and granted, we do need more of it...
However, some people like yuri only for comic relief/fanservice. Some people find romantic friendship cuter. Or some people prefer something like Noir where the relationship is far more complex and not easy to define. Some people like seeing lesbians more than relating to them. Others like stuff like Cross Ange where lesbians are merely objectified for male pleasure...
Whatever it is, there's a right and wrong way to do each of those and none of objectively better. If you're open minded enough, everything I just mentioned has equal potential to be good.

teh issue isnt weather its done right, but teh social baggage dat comes w/ teh tropes. Its a subjective ting w/ teh way Wii want a couple portrayed, but teh disdain 4 bait-&-switch yuri iz rooted in actual logic concerned w/ wut teh trope implies along w/ coherent storytellin in general, beyond superfishal kawai desu ne?!. "Trying" 2 justify bait-n-switch yuri, romantic friendship, or whatever any1 calls it by bringing in teh soshul expect8shun instigating it only serves 2 affirm wut many leady suspect. U say u dun care aboot teh soshul implicashuns of lesbian portrayal in anime, & u actually have no choice thar; most of teh time, there [I]R/I] no soshul implic8shuns with actual same-sex couple charters b/c teh soshul expect8shun u described stops any same-sex couple portrayal in teh 1st place.

i think teh topix of 'how intim8 is 2 intim8' actually makes 4 a better convo imo.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

teh issue isnt weather its done right, but teh social baggage dat comes w/ teh tropes. Its a subjective ting w/ teh way Wii want a couple portrayed, but teh disdain 4 bait-&-switch yuri iz rooted in actual logic concerned w/ wut teh trope implies along w/ coherent storytellin in general, beyond superfishal kawai desu ne?!. "Trying" 2 justify bait-n-switch yuri, romantic friendship, or whatever any1 calls it by bringing in teh soshul expect8shun instigating it only serves 2 affirm wut many leady suspect. U say u dun care aboot teh soshul implicashuns of lesbian portrayal in anime, & u actually have no choice thar; most of teh time, there [I]R/I] no soshul implic8shuns with actual same-sex couple charters b/c teh soshul expect8shun u described stops any same-sex couple portrayal in teh 1st place.

i think teh topix of 'how intim8 is 2 intim8' actually makes 4 a better convo imo.

Well... I thought about how a lot of these shows play around with female homosexuality rather than take it seriously, and I could see how negative ideas about homosexuality could be promoted... but... I also realize something else.

I really don't care about any of that stuff... whatsoever...

Give me Alicia and Akari from the Aria anime series before any canon yuri couple.

[Akito Kinomoto]

im sure the implications meaning nothing 2 u is exactly y u brought up the soshul expectashun that drives it.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

im sure the implications meaning nothing 2 u is exactly y u brought up the soshul expectashun that drives it.

So? It's not a social expectation that's a big deal

[Akito Kinomoto]

'not a big deal'? wasnt that teh main u used 2 justify teh trope?