2010-10-18, 17:31 | Link #42 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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And funnily enough, I was wondering if there wasn't any kind of "flags" indeed, considering the amount of variations possible. Speaking of variations, a positive -and- negative aspect of the game is the fact that it retains the actual state of your progression and shape both routes with it (which explains why the walkthrough included in the fantranslation pressed the point you have to go through Satoru's route after being done with Kokoro's good end). This is actually a good representation of the loop, thus the "infinity". However, the problem I see there is the fact you have to deliberately finish a bad end so the flags are "reset" which allow you not to be toasted for a random reason you may not figure. Seriously, a flowchart with this game will probably have a very funny layout, considering the atrocious number of different flags, triggers and whatever happy changes you can have. Quote:
I would say that the possibility to answer fully this story is however extremely convulated: as I explained, the critical information is only provided after a unreasonable amount of efforts (all the 31 bad ends), or in a unnatural fashion (tips instead being integrated in the plot), veiled with a unpolished storytelling. The fact the director himself has to admit the flaws of this game is a definite proof it is hardly a "fair game". There is an obvious amount of guess / theorycraft you have to go through, but it doesn't mean that the answer is satisfying considering you will reach a limit to this process. And even after you go all the pain in checking every damn tidbit of information (including the final 100% tip, the mystery girl), it doesn't reward you with data that can explain everything. In short, it is as if the writers were purposedly trying to make the tale overly complex (which is not, considering how obvious some points are, such like Yuni), then suddenly make the final truth vanish from your sight, rendering it as an impossible goal. Of course, we know why it became like this, but you can't blame people to rant about R11 considering its storytelling. If you want my personal analogy, I would say that R11 is similar to a imaginary case where Higurashi no Naku Koro ni would end with Minagoroshi, without its resolution and epilogue: Matsuribayashi. In essence, you know what is the culprit/issue/origin, the modus operandi/basis, however, you don't know the background for it, nor how to deal with it etc. Of course, R11 did show a "conclusion", however it was cut short by this forced "loop", which is not what you can consider as even "open ended": it is blatantly unfinished.
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2010-10-18, 17:51 | Link #43 | |
Traveler of Infinity
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Japan
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Just finished Bad Ending #8 right now. That was f***ing creepy. |
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2010-10-18, 18:09 | Link #44 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
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I won't fault anyone for not liking what he did with the ending. I'm just saying that lack of consideration for the reader != lack of writing skill. He could've given you everything you wanted on a platter like in E17, but chose not to. If anything, that makes him a bad person, not a bad writer.
But, big surprise, I'm biased as a member of the translation team. Expecting you to like something because I found it enjoyable is stupid. |
2010-10-18, 18:41 | Link #45 | |
Traveler of Infinity
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Japan
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2010-10-18, 20:09 | Link #46 |
Traveler of Infinity
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Japan
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Alright, I've gotten as many of Kokoro's Bad Endings as possible (#2, #3, and #17 can only be obtained after playing Satoru's Route), so I'm off to play Satoru's route. I'll start working on his bad endings after I finish his route, so wait until then.
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2010-10-19, 01:29 | Link #47 |
Winter is coming
Join Date: Aug 2008
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If someone doesn't like the game because of its ending, I'm fine with that. Because it's a lie if I say that I'm not disappointed by it.
But if someone says this is total crap without any convincing argument to support his claim, then I can't agree with him. He gives me the impression that it's not "he hates it because of its flaws", but "because he hates it so he sees nothing but flaws". I've already seen many people like that. They dislike something for a particular reason. Then because they hate it they see nothing good of it and bash it like there's no tomorrow. And I don't think it's fair. @Klashikari: Spoiler for Remember 11 spoilers:
Oh, suddenly something bugs me: Spoiler for Remember 11 spoilers:
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2010-10-19, 01:40 | Link #48 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Spoiler:
Also, I wouldn't call this game awful. Most of the mysteries aren't that hard to solve once you finish the game and have knowledge of the Failed Plan bad end or that awesome Bad End where you drink Kali's water in Satoru's route. The 100% complete TIP, though, is necessary for total understanding of course. The ending's rageworthy, sure, but it's not THAT bad. That said, I really liked Kokoro and Satoru as characters, and found Yuni really endearing. Didn't care for Utsumi or Hotori all that much, and Yomogi was pretty okay but not a big deal. Of course, I hated Lin. But I think we're kinda supposed to. Also, the story was infinitely better paced than Ever17 and remained interesting the entire time. It definitely isn't as good as 17, though, which I consider basically the pinnacle of the VN medium. But I'd have been totally shocked if it was. If Ever17 is a 10/10, I'd give R11 and 8. I wish KID hadn't asploded, because I'm sure they'd have made another Infinity game that finished all this. |
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2010-10-19, 01:45 | Link #49 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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In fact, I'd say that makes him a good writer. |
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2010-10-19, 03:44 | Link #50 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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A good writer knows his audience: if the audience doesn't like this kind of thing then he's a bad writer. I don't actually know whether or not the audience as a whole likes or dislikes this kind of thing, but you can't just excuse an unsatisfied audience in a commercial market.
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2010-10-19, 06:44 | Link #52 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Aiming to simply satisfy what people like is what caused the moe boom and led to the YA sections of bookstores being packed with clone upon clone of vampire novels. If you're telling me that those were the products of good writers then I sure as hell hope I'm a bad one |
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2010-10-19, 09:57 | Link #53 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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That said, I don't hate Remember11, it just has some pretty noticeable flaws. You can't just make the flaws disappear with a wave of your hand by claiming that taking risks is good writing. Taking risks is only good writing when it pays off in the end. |
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2010-10-19, 15:10 | Link #54 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Frankly, I like endings that piss me off, because that way I know the writer isn't the type to compromise for the sake of pleasing everyone, which inevitably leads to bad writing. It sounds like you're correlating artistic quality with commercial success. This is nothing more than a huge mistake. Oh, and Inception was unintelligent, uninspired, unimaginative, and overall an even worse movie than Avatar. It's just a shameless attempt at making stupid people (read: the majority of moviegoers) feel smart, and it succeeded. |
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2010-10-19, 22:46 | Link #56 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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Inspiring emotions in your audience is a good thing, but you shouldn't be angry at the author. That's just meaningless. it could be argued that the writer is a good troll is this case. Last edited by Clarste; 2010-10-19 at 22:57. |
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visual novel |
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