What the hell was Zabuza thinking?

[jc1104]

Originally Posted by realdeal

oh, so you think its fairer to compare Itachi to konohamru do you? If you compare them by their max potential..then its 100% speculation as you have nothing to go one whatsoever. If you comapre them to what weve seen, ie same age then at least you have seen something to base your opinion on. You cant say haku is a late bloomer because how do you know sasuke isnt? Thats why the only way to make this fair is to compare them at same age as we both see what their like at that age. If weve seen them all at their max potential then yea you have a point but from what weve seen as of now, you dont.

JC 1104 - that argument is invalid. If haku is 13/14 years old, naruto/sasuke when they fought him was 12. Now their 13, they both had 13 years to learn so you compare the genins as of now to haku b4 he died. Not what he could have been..thats not very fair is it, giving someone 15 years to learn and the other 14 years.

? Naruto didn't learn 1000 clones during/before the fight with Haku, he learned it after. You were using that to justify how Naruto could beat Haku.

And you can't calculate like that.. they don't learn to become ninjas when they are babies, plus the fact that Naruto and Haku had different environments in growing up. Haku's parents died, and he was left an orphan and was later taken in by Zabuza. Naruto on the other hand, had a school to go to but he was horrible in school, seeing as how he took 3 years to complete the academy.

Even if that was not a valid argument, Haku going easy on them is. They wouldn't have stood a chance if Haku went at full power, it's cause Haku can't take a person's life is why Naruto and Sasuke were able to defeat him.

[sheen]

Originally Posted by realdeal

oh, so you think its fairer to compare Itachi to konohamru do you? If you compare them by their max potential..then its 100% speculation as you have nothing to go one whatsoever. If you comapre them to what weve seen, ie same age then at least you have seen something to base your opinion on. You cant say haku is a late bloomer because how do you know sasuke isnt? Thats why the only way to make this fair is to compare them at same age as we both see what their like at that age. If weve seen them all at their max potential then yea you have a point but from what weve seen as of now, you dont.

I'm not comparing them by their max potential; I was not comparing at all. And I never did say that Haku was a late bloomer. I'm saying that you can't compare the characters by their ages because they are different growth factors that influence their strength (ie: Chuunin exam). Age is just that, age.

[Truesquirrel]

I think there was probably more to Haku than we saw. Zabuza said he'd been teaching him for years, and he had to know at least some of Zabuza's jutsus. Not only that, but what about the one handed seals? Kakashi was amazed when Haku did jutsus one handed, he said it was something he'd never seen before. Coming from Kakashi, that's impressive.

I'm not sure how the fights would go at this point, because I don't know, nor am I going to even theorize, how much Haku would have grown in this time. I don't think it's something we can estimate, so I'm going to refrain from commenting on the versus section of the topic.

My point is that Zabuza wasn't crazy, and that Haku was indeed a nice weapon. Setting his skills aside for a second, he had complete and utter devotion to Zabuza. Not many people in the Naruto universe have others that would give their lives, and not just in the "sacrifice myself to save you" sense, to them. Haku's entire existence was centered around Zabuza, and that is something that is very hard to come by.

[realdeal]

arghhh..

jc read my posts again. Environment or whatever, it does not matter. Were comparing characters and its not fair to compare someone 1 year older than the other. Were comparing the at same age. And no they dont learn when their babies, but use your head..if they started learning at 10 haku would have still had 4 more years over naruto's 2 years or whatever.

Sheen this thread is about comapring characters..and the best way to do that is by age.

If was a 10 year old, my brother was 8 year old du think it would be fair to compare my skill sto my 8 year old brother? NO. What I would probably do is wait until Im 12 and when my brother is 10, compare him to what I was like when I was 10. Same as when Im 20 and hes 18 etc.

This is the case with haku-naruto If haku was 14, wait for naruto to turn 14 and compare him to haku back when he was 14. You'll see haku is really thinking special. You can say late bloomer blah blah blah..like duh...obviously everyone knows different factors comes into play but those factors however are pure speculation. If your gonna compare them, compare them from what weve seen, a 13year old genin vs 14 haku. Infact I think haku is 15 years old as what it says on many sites..if your comparing genins vs haku back then, your basically comparing a 15yr old vs 12yr old. Not too fair IMO.

Iruka must be VERY strong, hes stronger than konohamaru..the hokage grandson! Asuma has to be legendary strength, hes stronger than Naruto, sasuke..main characters!

Do you see whats wrong with that logic? Its not very fair to compare them as they are of different ages. If you really want to compare them then compare them when Asuma was 13year old too. Comparison is all speculation too but if it has to happen which is what this thread is asking..then do it the fairest and least speculated sort of way.

And dont forget, zabuza has been teaching haku personally for much longer than kakashi - naruto/sasuke.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Originally Posted by realdeal

VS Temari - I think Temari maybe older..still no contest. Temari will just fan the whole mirrors. Haku without mirrors will be useless too from what we saw.

VS Tenten - If Haku does summon mirrors tenten will just break it with all her weapons. (not sure of this though)

Chouji - In manga chouji will beat him if he takes you know what. In anime I think hed still beat him, hed turn into a ball and just roll to break the mirror.

I didnt mind Haku loosing to Gaara/neji/sasuke and Naruto.

But lets not insult him by even pitting him against these other idiots you named lol.

Temari, tenten and Chouji would die so fast it wouldnt even be funny. Naruto too would die if Haku chose to go straight into kill mode.

Only Byakuggan, sharingan, and gaaras sand armor would ward off Haku trying to kill them.

You are forgetting how skilled and how incredibly fast Haku is with DIM. He can pinpoint places on your body that will kill you instantly.

Haku is a Ninja as well. Temari, Tenten and Chouji will never the the chance to raise a finger. Theyll attempt to attack and will be hit with needles in points that will drop them so incredibly fast.

On top of that you can remember when Sasuke used his fireball on the ice mirros. Haku told him that a attack of that Calibur could not do anything to the mirrors.

I seriously doubt tentens puny weapons or Temaris wind will destroy the mirrirors.

On top of that Haku will deflect any projectiles that are thrown at the mirrors. Remember when Zabuza threw like 5 shuriken at naruto and Haku intercepted them all with his neeles. Or when sakura tried to throw a kunai to Sasuke but haku caught it mid air. Haku is incredibly powerful in the mirrors.

Unfotunely there are some people who would completely nullify his attcks because of their blood lines and inborn ablities.

Ie gaara, neji, sasuke

Everoyone else is dead if Haku goes straight for the kill and doesnt waste time trying to be nice.

Like i said. I hate to contract myself but its only fair.
On the topic of "Haku is older"

Yes that is true but,

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

If you remember, Haku did not start his Ninja training till he was 7 or 8 years old. He lived a simple farmer child life for most of his childhood then he lived as a street kid until Zabuza found him.

While all the other kids were already skilled ninja in their acedemies learning so much Ninjutsu, Haku had not even began the basics.

He had to learn all of that so late in his childhood. And on top of that, he didnt even have the qualified type of teachers that the others did. The others had a miriad of sensei's to instruct them in all areas in a structured progressive way.

All haku had was Zabuza. One man to teach him all the basics and make him stronger. I dont think Zabuza was a very good teacher at all.

Even though Haku is older, he may still be at the disadvantage. I can only Imagine how strong Haku would be at his age if he had come up through the Ninja academy since birth and had had proper teachers.

[realdeal]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

I didnt mind Haku loosing to Gaara/neji/sasuke and Naruto.

But lets not insult him by even pitting him against these other idiots you named lol.

Temari, tenten and Chouji would die so fast it wouldnt even be funny. Naruto too would die if Haku chose to go straight into kill mode.

Only Byakuggan, sharingan, and gaaras sand armor would ward off Haku trying to kill them.

You are forgetting how skilled and how incredibly fast Haku is with DIM. He can pinpoint places on your body that will kill you instantly.

Haku is a Ninja as well. Temari, Tenten and Chouji will never the the chance to raise a finger. Theyll attempt to attack and will be hit with needles in points that will drop them so incredibly fast.

On top of that you can remember when Sasuke used his fireball on the ice mirros. Haku told him that a attack of that Calibur could not do anything to the mirrors.

I seriously doubt tentens puny weapons or Temaris wind will destroy the mirrirors.

On top of that Haku will deflect any projectiles that are thrown at the mirrors. Remember when Zabuza threw like 5 shuriken at naruto and Haku intercepted them all with his neeles. Or when sakura tried to throw a kunai to Sasuke but haku caught it mid air. Haku is incredibly powerful in the mirrors.

Unfotunely there are some people who would completely nullify his attcks because of their blood lines and inborn ablities.

Ie gaara, neji, sasuke

Everoyone else is dead if Haku goes straight for the kill and doesnt waste time trying to be nice.

LOL! You dont think temari's wind can destroy the ice? LOLOLOL! Have you read the manga lately?

Spoiler:

she can destroy a forest with it

and once again, LOL!!!!

The fire attacks are not exactly very strong from sasuke..they were designed more to melt the mirror rather than break. Obviously it wasnt strong enough to melt it.

Tenten has what like 100 weapons to throw from all angles..lets see haku pull out 100 needles in one go Besides, it would be hard to catch tenten on mirrors as she has to be close enough...and shes a distance fighter. Same as temari.

Remember, sasuke nearly beat him b4 DIM and he was barely genin then. That was the same sasuke that was anihilated by Lee in a matter of seconds WITH weights on. Chouji as he is in the manga would ANIHILATE haku. Even though haku would still be 1-2years older than chouji.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Ya and you would think Fire could destroy Ice wouldnt you?

Maybe its not just normal ice but chakra infused ice ^^

[realdeal]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Ya and you would think Fire could destroy Ice wouldnt you?

Maybe its not just normal ice but chakra infused ice ^^

If the ice is stronger than the fire then no the fire wont destroy the ice. Try using a match stick to destroy an huge sea iceberg. Then try using the sun to destroy fridge ice.

[jc1104]

Originally Posted by realdeal

arghhh..

Um... you definitely CANNOT compare that way.. it's just idiotic to do that.

Environment and other factors DO play a huge part.

For example, say Haku was 15, taken from a biography site, and Naruto was 12. What if Haku was in a coma for 10 years, and only had started to learn to become a ninja in 5 years?

And Naruto had no kind of mishap, wouldn't Naruto had more experience than Haku then? This is just an example.. The same thing with say compare to Sarutobi, who was 68. Are you going to wait until Naruto is 68 and then compare him to Sarutobi? There's too many factors and time differences to compare like that.

And besides, I said that even without taking this into consideration, you take for fact that Haku:

1. Can do 1 hand jutsus, incredibly fast too
2. Was being nice on Sasuke and Naruto, Zabuza had said he had a soft heart and could not kill anyone.
3. Like someone had said, his mirrors wouldn't break that easily, it was ice mirrors? Sasuke's fireball didn't do anything.. so what makes you think a blow of a fan or some hordes of kunais would break it?

[M1540]

can u guyz just leave Haku alone...? Haku was dead.

ok, y Zabuza said Haku is the best ninja *for Zabuza himself*, coz Zabuza had trained him since young *after they met*, n Haku has bloodline limit, n his ability, his intelligent

*my opinion*
their relation just like father n son
n maybe Haku was the best ninja among Zabuza's team member, tats y ^^;;

dun criticize a good character like useless, rubbish...etc

the author put in a character just for other development, Haku is not tat bad

about the vs thingie is really pointless

wat me n my fren get from tat Mist Village part, just a human life...cruel

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

You dont get it do you? When Haku attacks You cannot see him.

CANNOT SEE HIM AT ALL. HE IS JUST TOO FAST.

Hes invisble and next thing you know your vital organs have been punctured by lethal needles.

Sasuke and Naruto were just sitting ducks. They didnt know what was happening. They coulnt see or react to Haku. He was way too fast for them.
They survived until sasuke could awaken his sharingan because haku was deliberatly aiming for non lethal spots.

Only sasuke managed to get the time down because his sharingan awakened.

There is absolutely no way in hell tenten, chouji or temari would be able to survive hakus attacks. No way at all. Haku is moving too fast for them to see him, montiter him, or react to him.

[jc1104]

What?? When did Sasuke annihilate Rock Lee???

Even if TenTen could throw weapons all at once, Haku can avoid it? Her weapons aren't all over the place, she controls it with her threads.. it's not like a hailstorm.. Even if Temari was a distance fighter, Haku could trap her unsuspected. And, even without the mirrors, he's fast enough and accurate enough to throw needles from afar.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

On top of that Haku would not even need DIM for most of those guys.

Why would he bother with DIM for chouji?

Hell just let the fat ass roll around while he evades him till chouji runs out of chakra....

[realdeal]

Originally Posted by jc1104

Um... you definitely CANNOT compare that way.. it's just idiotic to do that.

Environment and other factors DO play a huge part.

For example, say Haku was 15, taken from a biography site, and Naruto was 12. What if Haku was in a coma for 10 years, and only had started to learn to become a ninja in 5 years?

And Naruto had no kind of mishap, wouldn't Naruto had more experience than Haku then? This is just an example.. The same thing with say compare to Sarutobi, who was 68. Are you going to wait until Naruto is 68 and then compare him to Sarutobi? There's too many factors and time differences to compare like that.

And besides, I said that even without taking this into consideration, you take for fact that Haku:

1. Can do 1 hand jutsus, incredibly fast too
2. Was being nice on Sasuke and Naruto, Zabuza had said he had a soft heart and could not kill anyone.
3. Like someone had said, his mirrors wouldn't break that easily, it was ice mirrors? Sasuke's fireball didn't do anything.. so what makes you think a blow of a fan or some hordes of kunais would break it?

Oh so you think comparing iruka to konohamru is better then? No one has told us haku couldnt train because he was in coma. We both assume they both had same chances because the rest advantage/disadvantage is PURE PURE speculation. We do know one advantage however than is 100% fact..that is haku is older. To properly compare them then we have to nullify that advantage by comparing them at same age. You cant nullify an advantage/disadvantage based on something you have absolutely no evidence of.

Besides from what weve seen in flashbacks, haku had much more personal training than other genins. We see him with zabuza at a very early age and zabuza boasting about how he trained his ass.

1) - I dont care..were talkinga bout strength not how many hands he does jutsu's with.
2) Were not comparing them on the fight back then..do you not read? Were not comparing a 15 year old vs a 12yr old. You might aswell compare konohamru with iruka for that matter.
3) A blow would break it because we saw naruto haku tried to stop naruto from hitting it with a blow. Why would he do that if it wont? As for sasuke fire..read my above posts. The fire was designed to melt, not break..the fire wasnt stronmg enough to melt it. I have a CD case..it would take forever for my lighter to break it...however a simple smash with my finger and its cracked.

I assume you havent read manga to think temari's fan wont break the mirror. Because if you havent, take my word for it, SHE WILL!

Wolf of mibu - You are forgetting that haku is INCREDIBLY weak without DIM. Sasuke...remember sasuke barely genin could beat him at taijutsu. Compare that sasuke old sasuke to most genins as they are now and he was absolutely pathetic. Lee anihilated him within a matter of seconds, that was lee with weights on. That was b4 he even got sharingan. Chouji as he is on the manga, if you read it youd know hed absolutely anihilate haku.

Mibu are you slow today? Didnt you read what I said that haku is only very fast when using mirrors. Without mirros sasuke outmatched him in speed. With mirrors I also explained the reasonw hy hes actually not that fast..first off:

Sasuke could block his moves with sharingan. If sasuke cant do that then hes not that fast - reason? Well Lee with weights on, sasuke couldnt block because he was THAT fast. Imagine lee with weights off..ermm gates open.

Second reason is: Naruto kyubi move could dodge haku's hits..naruto kyubi mode speed is roughly the same as neji's. Haku cant be that fast if naruto could dodge em with neji's speed. His protrayed to be very fast at beggining whilst in DIM when faced with the weak characters..however when he met the stronger side of thsoe characters he didnt appear to be that fast anymore. Its all about portrayal in animes. For example goku ss1, krillin cant see himm..damm fast. Vs vegeta, vegeta would think nothing of his speed.

JC - im right you dont read! Read read read! i said lee anihilated sasuke..within a matter of seconds. Not sasuke beat lee.

[jc1104]

Ok, so if her fan breaks it, it doesn't mean she's stronger.

And you can't compare strength, you don't know for a fact that they are stronger. Take in consideration Haku was taking on BOTH Sasuke and Naruto.

And all the other VS. this and that, you definitely cannot compare it. You have no information whatsoever, nor will such a fight ever happen.

EDIT: Stop bringing in Manga information, we were never discussing things in the Manga. It is a completely different topic to do that.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

LOL

Sasuke as he was when he became a genin even without his mirrors would kill temari, kill chouji and possibly ten ten. So what if lee could beat him. Lee would annihlate those guys as well.

Sasuke was Konoha's number 1 genin.

Im not even going to bother arguing with you anymore. If you actually think the likes of tenten and chouji could beat Haku your not too bright at all

[realdeal]

Originally Posted by jc1104

Ok, so if her fan breaks it, it doesn't mean she's stronger.

And you can't compare strength, you don't know for a fact that they are stronger. Take in consideration Haku was taking on BOTH Sasuke and Naruto.

And all the other VS. this and that, you definitely cannot compare it. You have no information whatsoever, nor will such a fight ever happen.

EDIT: Stop bringing in Manga information, we were never discussing things in the Manga. It is a completely different topic to do that.

Ermmm no, temari would anihilate haku. If she breaks dim, she will anihilate haku worser than how she did with tenten because of her new move.

And yes it has to do with manga, were comparing how good haku was with normal genins. Haku was 15 year old, so Im gonna keep comparing him to the genins on their latest form until they reach 16.

I have information for my VS this and that..what weve seen. What else is this thread if its not for comparison? To see haku's worth compare to other genins you must compare them.

Wolf of mibu - HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

start reading the manga b4 you talk anymore. Its laughable. Beat temari, chouji as he was then? lol...no more..lol..lol....You've no idea...lets just say alot of people were complaining about naruto turning into some sort of dbz because of power rises such as what was shown in the manga.

And no sasuke was not konoha's number genin, he was number 1 ROOKIE. Lee, neji was clearly stronger than him at that time.

[ChronoReverse]

[edit] never mind [/edit]

[jc1104]

Don't be dumb.. Haku is dead, you cannot compare to a dead person. It doesn't matter if he had a few extra years, Temari is about the same age as Haku by the way.

New move? Don't bring that stuff in here, Haku could have learned a new move as well. You're using the past and comparing it to the future, not very effective.

What you say is just irrelevant... Man, I could say Haku could take Temari's dumb fan with his speed and throw it into the ocean, who would win then?

EDIT: Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, to compare by strength overall is incredibly stupid. As you can see, Sarutobi may be strong and intelligent, but you can see he lacks speed.

[jc1104]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

[edit] never mind [/edit]

?? I read it.. I know what you typed.. why delete it ?