[Anime-only] Naruto Shippuden Episode 214 Discussion

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

So... Konoha knows Sasuke has turned against them...the international community knows Sasuke is an ally of Akatsuki (who want to take over the world) and hell even you know it (hence your bold statement ending with "yet") but Konoha is suppose to sit around and wait for him to attack them outright before they decide to do something? The only reason he never got to Konoha was because Pain beat him to it.

Anyways, Sakura was the only one who went there with the intention to kill Sasuke. Kakashi came to save her and Naruto to save the both of them. And... just because the main characters weren't involved in looking for Orochimaru doesn't mean Konoha didn't have ninjas out looking for him. We only saw the main characters involvement in that search during part 2.

And finally... I have no clue how you can say Sasuke is only taking an eye for an eye. He's the biggest hypocrite ever working with/ accepting help from the guy that helped Itachi kill the Uchiha clan. Also..what did Karin ever do for Sasuke except help him... was she part of his revenge plan too? What about the rest of his team that he abandoned?

I didn't say they shouldn't do anything about him. Obviously he's a target for assassination. No disagreeing there. All I'm saying is that from our perspective, as viewers who are outside of the story's rules, he hasn't actually done anything to earn him some kind of divine retribution.

As for those who went there to kill him, I'm just saying that there's no point acting surprised by Sasuke's actions. Of course he was going to kill Sakura, she went there to kill him herself after all. Kakashi was also fully resolved to kill him. Even if that wasn't the case, Sasuke's revenge is to kill all of konoha. There's nothing unexpected in what he's doing.

I think it's pretty clear between both Madara and Sasuke that in the end Sasuke will try to kill him to complete his revenge. For now they're both using each other. As for Karin, since Danzo took her hostage Sasuke was forced to betray her in order to kill him. What else could he do after stabbing her? Apologize? It was either kill her or lock her up.

Imo it is an eye for an eye. Konoha killed all Uchiha indiscriminately so Sasuke plans to do the same to Konoha. In the end, it's a ninja village. There are no civilians.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Casshern

Imo it is an eye for an eye. Konoha killed all Uchiha indiscriminately so Sasuke plans to do the same to Konoha. In the end, it's a ninja village. There are no civilians.

It wasn't Konoha, the authorities of Konoha. Besides Konoha has civilians, Ramen Girl and his dad aren't ninjas. I would say that Konoha is some kind of military base but with civil employees and residents.

Sasuke is the classic morron who doesn't understand the difference between a nazi and a german. He wanted to kill Danzou, ok, no problem with that. The Elders, fine... but... Ramen girl?... what did she to be killed?. Itachi wasn't thinking in her, Itachi wasn't thinking in anybody else but Sasuke.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Fran~

It wasn't Konoha, the authorities of Konoha. Besides Konoha has civilians, Ramen Girl and his dad aren't ninjas. I would say that Konoha is some kind of military base but with civil employees and residents.

Sasuke is the classic morron who doesn't understand the difference between a nazi and a german. He wanted to kill Danzou, ok, no problem with that. The Elders, fine... but... Ramen girl?... what did she to be killed?. Itachi wasn't thinking in her, Itachi wasn't thinking in anybody else but Sasuke.

For the same reason that the elders ordered the Uchiha babies to be killed along with the rebels.

It's not an "eye for an eye" if he only kills the people responsible. The elders didn't just order the rebels to be killed. They ordered all the Uchiha to die. As unreasonable as Sasuke may appear, that's exactly how unreasonable the Uchiha genocide was, and it requires an equally unreasonable revenge.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by Casshern

Imo it is an eye for an eye. Konoha killed all Uchiha indiscriminately so Sasuke plans to do the same to Konoha. In the end, it's a ninja village. There are no civilians.

What a load of bollocks. The Uchiha clan was already plotting a military coup for no reason other than buying into Madara's selfish butthurt whining and not liking being looked at in a funny way after he (the head Uchiha) attacked the village with the Kyuubi. And they refused to be dissuaded from this lunacy by the Third, one of the most pacifistic Kages we've seen, when he tried to negotiate. There is nothing indiscriminate about squashing a military threat that would throw Konoha into a war with its opportunistic neighbors when all attempts at trying to reason with them have failed. Even Itachi, one of the Uchiha, agreed that it had to be done.

Madara is manipulating Sasuke to completely invalidate the purpose of Itachi's life and death just like he played the Uchiha clan. He's intentionally perpetuating the atmosphere of hate in the ninja world and then using it as justification for his ridiculous Moon's Eye plan. And of course Sasuke is all too willing to take the simplistic "Let me focus on my selfish rage" path and play right into all of it. There is nothing just about this: Sasuke is doing this because he WANTS something at which to direct his hatred rather than grow up. Say what you will about Danzo, but he at least got that much right. The whole point of the current plot is that Sasuke is caught up in the cycle of hatred the flawed eye-for-an-eye logic fosters, and Naruto is trying to save him from that. It's a microcosm for Naruto's larger problem of ending the cycle altogether.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Casshern

For the same reason that the elders ordered the Uchiha babies to be killed along with the rebels.

It's not an "eye for an eye" if he only kills the people responsible. The elders didn't just order the rebels to be killed. They ordered all the Uchiha to die. As unreasonable as Sasuke may appear, that's exactly how unreasonable the Uchiha genocide was, and it requires an equally unreasonable revenge.

It doesn't "require" that at all. Eye for an eye is the whole reason for the endless cycle of hatred the series has gone so out of its way to point out. It's a stupid, barbaric code to follow. Sasuke's reasons are corrupt. Answering genocide with another genocide is not the right way. It doesn't matter if he thinks it's reasonable, of course he does. All villains think what they're doing is the right thing. Doesn't mean it is, no matter how you spin it.

[mrShady]

If the anime team is so hell bend on reanimating everything why not do so when they catch up to the manga, hell of a lot better then crappy filler. Also by the time they reanimated whole season 1 the manga might be finished:P.
Petition time?

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Casshern

For the same reason that the elders ordered the Uchiha babies to be killed along with the rebels.

It's not an "eye for an eye" if he only kills the people responsible. The elders didn't just order the rebels to be killed. They ordered all the Uchiha to die. As unreasonable as Sasuke may appear, that's exactly how unreasonable the Uchiha genocide was, and it requires an equally unreasonable revenge.

You're right... Uchiha's genocide was unreasonable. I'm not defending the decision. But Sasuke can't be so stupid to not understand that he is doing the same thing and that probably one konoha nin or civil can follow his own revenge path and seeking his own vengeance against him. Don't forget that Kabutomaru wants Sasuke's head.

That's why the cycle of hatred never ends. Naruto victory against Pain wasn't only about the brawl but in the field of the ideas, Naruto showed Pain that he can put aside his revenge.

[MidnightViper88]

Originally Posted by Casshern

Sasuke is taking an eye for an eye. There are no innocents in his view, just as there were no innocents when Itachi killed every helpless elderly and baby Uchiha. It doesn't really matter what Itachi wanted at this point. Itachi himself filled Sasuke with hatred, now the rest of the world has to deal with it. Whenever Sasuke started to feel at peace in team 7, Itachi would torture him with tsukiyomi and feed him with more hatred. It's because Itachi couldn't let it go that Sasuke abandoned Konoha, brought Itachi's death, encountered Madara and turned against konoha. Everything Sasuke is doing was within Itachi's expectations, hence the implanted amaterasu in Sasuke's eye and the gift he gave Naruto.

Btw, both Sakura and Kakashi went there with the intention to kill Sasuke. Neither of them is innocent. Also, Sasuke hasn't actually taken any action against Konoha yet. He took out Oro who was an enemy of Konoha, Itachi was on the verge of dying and granted Sasuke his revenge while he still could, and he also took out Danzo who had betrayed the council. As far as konoha should be concerned, Sasuke is nothing more than a rogue ninja. You didn't see konoha going out of their way to take out Orochimaru, even after he leveled konoha to the ground, yet Sakura feels that Sauke should die for what he's done. What has he done again? Reject her?

That's why I said, say what you will about the Uchiha massacre...There was a coup d'etat within the Uchiha clan to uprise against Konoha that was almost peacefully negotiated by Hiruzen but fell through...Because of this, Itachi was under orders from Danzo and the Village Elders to kill off the entire clan, even the innocents...You can argue an eye for an eye (lol, silly dojutsu puns) if Sasuke never knew the truth behind the massacre, and was constant with Itachi's plan of ensuring his death by Sasuke's hands would make him a hero within Konoha for killing the villainous Itachi, and that Sasuke would rebuild the pride of the Uchiha once again...But that never happened; Sasuke learned the truth, and would target the higher ups in Konoha for it...

Which is fine and all; Gray morality aside, Danzo was handed by Sasuke "justice" for Danzo's part in the massacre...If Sasuke limited his revenge against those directly responsible for killing off his clan, that would be completely justified (Within limited constraints), but unfortunately, Sasuke has no clear target, only "Konoha", and anyone else that would happen to obstruct his path...But I would still dare anyone to justify Sasuke's version of an eye for an eye when even the innocents should be killed...He already stated his intent to destroy Konoha after learning of the truth from Madara, and the way he talks about how everyone lives in alleged happiness in ignorance to the truth, makes it seem like Sasuke views everyone in Konoha equally responsible, despite only so few actually being in the know and only even fewer actually directly responsible...So, what...Everyone right down to Konohamaru and the two people that work in the ramen shop are just as guilty and acceptable as targets for Sasuke?

Kakashi and Sakura had the intent to kill Sasuke because of Sasuke's reckless actions, in an attempt to put an end to Sasuke's rampant destruction...And it's not limited to Konoha either, because Sasuke's an international terrorist, according to all five ninja nations...He's participated in Akatsuki affairs, he barged in uninvited to a diplomatic meeting in a neutral country and engaged against each of the nation's respective Kages, and he's still in conspiracy with Madara, who did wage war during the Five Kage Summit...Sasuke's not an unwilling participant; He went and did all of this to himself, knowing full well what he was getting into...So much for revenging against those responsible for Itachi's death; He's blown things way out of proportion...With an alliance between the five nations, any action against one or any of them is an action against them all...

Oh, and uhh, Madara is still a part of this equation, anyway...Madara twisted Sasuke's revenge way down in the deep end, despite Madara's own involvement for supporting the Uchiha massacre as another form of revenge for the Uchiha turning their back against Madara a long time ago...There has to be a point where an eye for an eye expires, because with Madara trying to fuel a feud too many generations old between the Uchiha and Senju, and still harboring resentment against the entirety Uchiha clan since long ago, I don't think Madara knows the difference between a Nazi and a German...I'd like to see Sasuke act against Madara, and see how that fares...

Konoha did pursue Orochimaru, no doubt sending Sai after him to get to Sasuke, but because of Danzo conspiring with Orochimaru in the shadows for experimentation, I wouldn't doubt if Danzo hampered any real pursuit against Orochimaru, within his influence and control, anyway...

[tera_ha]

I wonder if sasuke will finally die in the next episode. he should anyways

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Casshern

I didn't say they shouldn't do anything about him. Obviously he's a target for assassination. No disagreeing there. All I'm saying is that from our perspective, as viewers who are outside of the story's rules, he hasn't actually done anything to earn him some kind of divine retribution.

As for those who went there to kill him, I'm just saying that there's no point acting surprised by Sasuke's actions. Of course he was going to kill Sakura, she went there to kill him herself after all. Kakashi was also fully resolved to kill him. Even if that wasn't the case, Sasuke's revenge is to kill all of konoha. There's nothing unexpected in what he's doing.

I think it's pretty clear between both Madara and Sasuke that in the end Sasuke will try to kill him to complete his revenge. For now they're both using each other. As for Karin, since Danzo took her hostage Sasuke was forced to betray her in order to kill him. What else could he do after stabbing her? Apologize? It was either kill her or lock her up.

Imo it is an eye for an eye. Konoha killed all Uchiha indiscriminately so Sasuke plans to do the same to Konoha. In the end, it's a ninja village. There are no civilians.

Danzo's head was totally open and considering that he barely moved, Sasuke could easily come up with something to take him down without bringing a fatal wound to Karin.

And if it really came to that then at least try to find some kind of help for her and not going mad ass and killing her off.

Sorry, but your Sasuke justification doesn't work. He is an asshole who needs to die, he is not the only one with bad past. Even Gara calmed down even though he never had any bonds at all in comparison to Sasuke who was always admired by everyone. Gara had far more excuses for killing everyone than Sasuke ever did.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

What a load of bollocks. The Uchiha clan was already plotting a military coup ...

Madara is manipulating Sasuke to completely invalidate the purpose of Itachi's life...

Yes, and they didn't just kill the rebels. They wiped out the entire clan. That's why Sasuke wants to kill all of Konoha.

Sasuke is exactly what Itachi made him to be. He filled Sasuke with hatred, made Sasuke an avenger and just before Itachi died he told Sasuke about Madara's involvement in the massacre, ensuring that Sasuke would also persue Madara. Knowing that Madara would reveal the truth about the massacre and further drive Sasuke mad with hatred, he implanted a fail-safe in Naruto. Everything went according to Itachi's plan.

Originally Posted by Xagzan

It doesn't "require" that at all. Eye for an eye is the whole reason for the endless cycle of hatred the series has gone so out of its way to point out.

Indeed, Sasuke is the embodiment of the hatred Naruto is trying to stop. Makes perfect sense plotwise and everything.

Originally Posted by MidnightViper88

That's why I said, say what you will about the Uchiha massacre...

Better yet, if Itachi really loved his brother and wanted him to live a happy life, Sasuke should have been told that Itachi also died in the massacre. Sure, Sasuke would still feel hatred, but he wouldn't have any target to direct it against and over time and with the influence of his team he could still put his life back together. With Itachi putting him under tsukiyomi several times, intentionally filling him with hatred and malice, he personaly took away every chance his brother had at living a normal life.

Originally Posted by kitten320

Danzo's head was totally open and considering that he barely moved

Well, I don't know if Sasuke could have killed Danzo without harming Karin so I can't argue that point. As for Gaara, he was more like Naruto in that he only wanted to be recognised and acknowledged which he finally got from Naruto, and even Naruto didn't start to change until Sasuke started treating him differently than others did. Sasuke's case is quite different. Sasuke is a bit more similar to Nagato, but even Nagato didn't have an Itachi in his life, and the betrayals against him didn't run as deep and from as many angles as they did in Sasuke's life.

Well like I said, we've been through all these arguments a million times and we all leave with the same opinions we came with. It's not my intention to step on anyone's toes with my views so I'm glad we can just discuss it fairly civilized without flames, but I think we can just agree to disagree at this point

[AuroraFlash]

Sakura must be dumb. "I thought I could do it" ? Hello? Just don't step in when Kakashi's fighting… he could've easily killed the blind Sasuke, but Sakura of course takes Sasuke lightly once again. Wasn't he just about to kill her? Well, doesn't matter to Sakura, does it? She's not shocked, she just continues with the next stupid action. Why bother? Naruto should have the pink hair because Sakura's clearly a dumb blondie. Despite all the depression, Sakura isn't any better than Sonsaku Hakufu or Excel from Excel Saga… but wait, I don't want to insult those two. In fact, even Tomo-chan from Azumanga Daioh is more clever than Sakura. I happen to be unable to find and equal to Sakura… I'd say Bulma might be as stupid, but Bulma shows more skin which makes her a nice character while Sakura seems to have real problems with her parents. After all, a healthy and sane girl would never cry so much over just a boy she never kissed.

[Ushio the Omega]

Originally Posted by MidnightViper88

OH, I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE, SEAN CONNERY!



Yeah, OK...Sasuke started at 100%, nearly burned out his eyes on Susanoo and held a marathon against Danzo, pulling him down to only enough power to manipulate Chidori and use the Mangekyo Sharingan for a finishing kill or two...So I'm supposed to believe that biting Karin for 5 seconds would allow him to muster just a little more strength for a more formed Susanoo against Kakashi for a longer duration than what would be expected? If anything was restored, it was Sasuke's arrogance, since he's going blind now after overclocking his eyes just to prove a point...A lot of wasted effort based on just the ego...

Biting her before healed the multiple stab wounds inflicted on Sasuke by Killerbee she was also planning on healing Sasuke's chest blowout but Juugo did it instead so yes I believe she can.

Originally Posted by Vindi89

So... Konoha knows Sasuke has turned against them...the international community knows Sasuke is an ally of Akatsuki (who want to take over the world) and hell even you know it (hence your bold statement ending with "yet") but Konoha is suppose to sit around and wait for him to attack them outright before they decide to do something? The only reason he never got to Konoha was because Pain beat him to it.

Anyways, Sakura was the only one who went there with the intention to kill Sasuke. Kakashi came to save her and Naruto to save the both of them. And... just because the main characters weren't involved in looking for Orochimaru doesn't mean Konoha didn't have ninjas out looking for him. We only saw the main characters involvement in that search during part 2.

And finally... I have no clue how you can say Sasuke is only taking an eye for an eye. He's the biggest hypocrite ever working with/ accepting help from the guy that helped Itachi kill the Uchiha clan. Also..what did Karin ever do for Sasuke except help him... was she part of his revenge plan too? What about the rest of his team that he abandoned?

So Sasuke turning against the village that massacred his clan is wrong?

The leader of a country or village can only maintain that position through the will of the people. The elders acted and Sasuke has a right to blame them and those who allowed them there position.

[yogotah]

I want Sasuke to kill them all. Naruto, Kakashi, Sakura, etc...the whole village. Hatred is a powerful weapon, hatred is stronger than love. Sasuke lost ALL his bonds, his mother that loved him very much, his father that was a good strict father, and brother that cherished him. He lost of all that, and now imagine going back to a normal life, after all these tragedies have happened. Impossible, Sasuke has gone off the hinge, but he isn't the one to blame. Sasuke is just following the strongest force in the world, hatred. And if the show is as realistic as I want it to be, Hatred will become the victor of the battle.

[Fran~]

Yeah... nobody else has suffered losses... poor Sasuke.

Please, this is a manga and show for kids, Hatred will be defeated.

[octaviahawk]

Originally Posted by kitten320

Ah damn! Just come on! We saw this flashback 2 weeks ago already! Do they have any difference? Because I didn't bother to watch them.

And for those who want a filler Kakshi/Sasuke fight, here you go! A very good fan made animation:

oh my gwad, that was like...miles above the actual episode. Damn those kids can animate!

[yogotah]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Please, this is a manga and show for kids, Hatred will be defeated.

Sadly, it seems that will be so, but it doesn't make it less irritating. And yes, sasuke isn't the only one who has suffered losses, but can you tell me who has been mentally raped and as tormented as Sasuke has in the show. The answer is nobody, he's unique in his hatred because that's all he has, he really doesn't any other choice or opportunity as this point.

[toxicstar]

Oh my gosh, despite having to fast forward a few parts of the Naruto flashbacks in this episode, my heart was literally pounding the whole time as I watched the scenes unfold. Especially within the last few minutes of the episode as Sakura pauses momentarily unable to kill Sasuke and Kakashi rushes forward hopelessly then Sasuke swings around in fury to swipe at her just as Naruto rushes in to save them from what would appeared to have been the point of no return.

No offense, but I strongly believe that everything is going to end well. As in Sasuke will not be the bad guy. I have the feeling that everything he is doing is only to prove to Madara that he can be trusted so that Sasuke can eventually bring him down and save the rest of the world. If you think about it, Sasuke hasn't killed anybody that he shouldn't have or acted super evilly. Sure he left his new Akatsuki teammates back at the Kages' Summit, but that was knowing they were still alive. Sure he struck at Karin, but she didn't die. He even took out Danzo, the biggest bad guy acting in the shadows. Everything seems to fall a little too smoothly in place. His path of destruction seems to be one full of getting rid of bad guys.

If one can see past the graphics and focus on the author's intentions it appears that the author is trying very hard to keep Sasuke from actually intentionally killing anyone who is not bad. Get it? This is so that Sasuke has a fresh record to turn back to when he rights himself since he has never dirtied himself with innocent blood just yet. Because the moment he does then there are no more excuses for him even if he turns good again.

He may not have prevented catastrophe from falling on Konoha, but he didn't instigate it either. He has his own plans, his own pace, and he can only rely on the others to right the wrongs for his lack of interference before he himself saves the day as well.

Does anyone agree or is this all in my head due to the fact that I am more of a Sasuke fan than not? Though I do admit he is probably not my favorite character, LoL.


One more side note, I hope Sasuke doesn't end up like Lelouch in Code Geass Season Two finale, now that was heartbreaking...

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by yogotah

Sadly, it seems that will be so, but it doesn't make it less irritating. And yes, sasuke isn't the only one who has suffered losses, but can you tell me who has been mentally raped and as tormented as Sasuke has in the show. The answer is nobody, he's unique in his hatred because that's all he has, he really doesn't any other choice or opportunity as this point.

Do you know Kakashi's past?. Did you pay attention to Kakashi Gaiden?.
Kakashi changed after Obito's death, but before that he was very close to the pre-chuunin exam Sasuke. Sakumo's suicide wasn't a happy moment for Kakashi.

What about Naruto?, he didn't know a single relative, Sasuke at least knew the love of a mother, a father and a brother. Naruto was tormented by Konoha's rejection. Gaara is another case, how about if the closest person to you tries to kill you?.

Sasuke is that kind of people who always blame the world for their troubles.

[yogotah]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Do you know Kakashi's past?. Did you pay attention to Kakashi Gaiden?.
Kakashi changed after Obito's death, but before that he was very close to the pre-chuunin exam Sasuke. Sakumo's suicide wasn't a happy moment for Kakashi.

Kakashi has suffered losses, and his background was sad but his tragedies are still pretty minimal when you compared them to sasuke. We can't really speak on Kakashi because of the limited information we know about him. His dad committed suicide by his own choice, Sakumo wasn't killed by someone Kakashi idolized. Kakashi did suffered, don't get me wrong, but the level of intensity is incomparable in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Fran~

What about Naruto?, he didn't know a single relative, Sasuke at least knew the love of a mother, a father and a brother. Naruto was tormented by Konoha's rejection. Gaara is another case, how about if the closest person to you tries to kill you?.

Sasuke is that kind of people who always blame the world for their troubles.

Just like Sasuke said, it is because he knew of the love that losing it is painful. Since Naruto never experienced unconditional love as a child, how is he going to understand what it means to lose it? He can't, and that's why he could never actually understand what Sasuke was going through.


Gaara is a stronger case, since he was also enveloped in darkness. The problem is that he never had ANYONE love him, everyone hated him, his own father tried to kill him, again he never experienced true love so he can't understand how losing it could affect him. Gaara just adapted to the environment he was put under, his situation was sad but is more similar to Naruto who also didn't have anyone.

Sasuke lost EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY, not a father, not a brother, but his whole clan. His whole existence was wiped away in a moment. Sasuke is lost but everything is justified when you look as his circumstances in a substantial manner.