[Feedback] AnimeSuki Choice Awards

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'm on-board with this - that cat is pretty vestigial. The multi-cour anime is largely a dinosaur at this point - to call this year's pickings slim would be a massive understatement. I'd be fine with adding a "Best Cast" and getting rid of this one.

I'd also support replacing "Best Ongoing" with "Best Cast". Honestly, "Best Ongoing" was initially brought in to placate Shinsekai Yori, Psycho-Pass, and Nagi no Asukara fans that badly wanted to support one of these shows for the year when their first cours took place. I have my doubts anything quite like that will happen again, anytime soon.

In addition to this, Shirayuki-hime just proved that Fall-to-Winter two cour shows (or split cour shows with the 2nd cour in Winter) do not get forgotten for the year that the Winter half took place in.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

All I've ever wanted is a top-of-page banner announcing the nomination phase and one announcing the voting phase. I've never understood the resistance to such a simple request. I know that your position is that the Awards are "unofficial," but frankly something that has persisted for a decade now is functionally official whether you think so or not.

Agreed. I understand the Moderating staff not wanting to make rule exceptions, but if anything would legitimize that, it's awards that have been going steady for a full decade and which some of our more active members view as an AS community event of some value.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Ulin

In my opinion, if there's a category a bit... extra is the ongoing series one. In the end those series could be nominated and win the next year, so that spot could be replaced with best VA for example, and I mean not just the VA, but the role he/she is nominated for (although we could need to enforce Rem Rule here, so not to have the same VA nominated for 3 different roles... it is more difficult that it seems sometimes )

I completely forgot that the category existed so yeah, you're 100% on target there. I'm 100% behind dropping the "Ongoing Series" category in favour of a "Best Cast" one.

As for the publicity discussion I'll just add that, like SejiSensei, I've made my opinion on the matter known more than once and I find myself agreeing with his opinion. I do try my best most years to draw attention to the awards with my massive signature* but there are still folks that can miss them if they aren't really looking at the signatures and avatars. And we don't want people to just go around spamming other threads so we quickly end up out of options.

* I admit I failed this year since I was also trying to push people for a different thing with much less traction. Sorry about that.

[Arya]

Well, if some category has to be replaced surely side character is one of the last I'd go for. I agree ongoing series sounds the best candidate.

I won't go into the rules' technicalities jungle, if not to say that as far as it goes against relative small numbers any (reasonable) system may work to a certain extent. As for the same reason, it'd be difficult to attribute to a particular change, if applied, any positive or negative response observed in the following year.
With that in mind, the only thing I can suggest it is to stick to the bottom of the preliminaries/final stage first post a last paragraph containing a kaname-like we-want-you flashy/fun signature (or even many), with the suggestion to "wear" it for the duration of the contest. It would help if the OP would be already wearing it himself.
Second feasible step, to suggest to one AS friend to wear it, if someone interested in it.
Then wait and see if it works and to which extent.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Obviously you'll believe I'm biased, but I truly don't believe that's the case. Lots of things gain popularity on the forum without staff intervention due entirely to word-of-mouth hype. I think the assumption that you need staff endorsement can become a crutch that prevents people from seeing out-of-the-box solutions and alternatives, or from looking more closely at other factors/shortcomings that could be addressed.

But if you do truly believe that is the case, then it's pointless to continue on the current path bearing this cross. The most important thing to do would be to rethink the strategy. I think I explained pretty clearly the rationale for the staff's decision and the criteria that were used to arrive at that decision. You don't have to agree with the decision, but if you're going to offer a counterproposal, you need an argument that takes that perspective into account, addresses the concerns, and provides a way forward. Obviously if you come back with the same proposal/logic/argument as before, the answer isn't likely to change. But I wouldn't just keep on walking down the same path if you've already decided it's doomed; that alone is going to doom it more than anything else.

I don't think my original argument was ever addressed. You originally said the following:

So far we have only promoted activities run directly by (or in conjunction with) the staff. The reason is because, otherwise, there's no easy way to choose which activities get promoted and which ones don't without being perceived as playing favorites. I'm not saying there's no way we'd ever do it, but we'd need to come up with a way of doing it that was fair to everyone.

When we do Banner Contests, we do announce them, but we haven't had one for a little while. (I hope we will have one this year...)

I don't really have any comments about a Scavenger Hunt (I was never personally involved in it in the past), but I can't help but imagine all the "drama" a Best Signature competition could cause. I realize these are only suggested ideas, though, and I do take the point about wanting to have more community-wide activities. I personally may not be the best person to do it, but hopefully the other staff can also review and think about it.

To which I said:

I wasn't aware AS is a democracy. Who cares if mods are perceived as playing favoritism, you guys are running the site , not us. Endorse what you damn please lol.

There is no such thing as accountability on this forum. We never put you guys in power and it's always an inside circle thing. Obviously you all work for the betterment of the community and I am not impugning any of your motives, but really anything always is left to you guys in the end anyways. If the moderators wanted to officially become a part of the AS awards (Is there not even one moderator willing to become a participant themselves to make it "official?") then I don't really see the problem and there's nothing stopping that.

To me, it feels like the moderators are unwilling to expend any effort to make it more official or contribute to it in some capacity. We all have busy lives, and you guys simply might not care that much about it. That's fine, I can't ask you or any other moderator to care. This "policy" though is pretty hollow. When Nightwish or whoever (I forget) ran the scavenger hunt for AS, he did it alone without anyone else involved from the staff. So essentially we just need 1 moderator who is willing to become a part of the process?

If you told us that no moderator is interested in investing time into this ceremony and doesn't see any value in it, that would make a hell of a lot more sense to me than this easily skirted around policy you have.

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As for other efforts the committee could make... I remember one year a bunch of people wore a bunch of Cross Game signatures intending to promote an anime. You guys got mad and slapped it down for one reason or another. I think that was highly demotivating to people becoming passionate about the awards. Perhaps as you said there could be a general promotion campaign with signatures during that time frame. It's a good idea and we should implement something like that. The problems I see with the award ceremony extend beyond the moderator's endorsement of the efforts, but I definitely don't think it helps. The moderators have valuable ideas like yourself and we just want to work with you in some capacity.

[Haak]

Sorry I've been away for so long. Life's been busy, then I bricked my smartphone trying to flash a rom, then I wiped everything off my desktop trying to fix my smartphone (including the operating system itself). It's been quite the month. XP

Anyway, can conform that Best Cast will very likely replace Best Ongoing providing that there are no massive objections (I've heard none so far).

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This "policy" though is pretty hollow. When Nightwish or whoever (I forget) ran the scavenger hunt for AS, he did it alone without anyone else involved from the staff. So essentially we just need 1 moderator who is willing to become a part of the process?

Technically we do have Kotohono occasionally taking part in the organizing. I just never asked her for an official message because I always assumed it's only the Admins that could do that. Can anyone confirm?

[relentlessflame]

Sorry too for my delayed response.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I remember one year a bunch of people wore a bunch of Cross Game signatures intending to promote an anime. You guys got mad and slapped it down for one reason or another. I think that was highly demotivating to people becoming passionate about the awards.

We would never have gotten mad about people using signatures to promote the awards, unless there was something about the content that was problematic, or people were making posts all over the place just to get more visibility for the signatures (so it was like spam, but trying to hide the fact it was spam by using the signature loophole as an out). But I've actively encouraged people to use signatures to promote the awards.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

When Nightwish or whoever (I forget) ran the scavenger hunt for AS, he did it alone without anyone else involved from the staff. So essentially we just need 1 moderator who is willing to become a part of the process?

The Scavenger Hunt was a staff-run project, just like the Banner Contests. Depending on the event, different staff members may be involved (either by themselves or as a team). Staff-run contests are usually presented and discussed among the staff before they are implemented, regardless of who runs it. But of course the staff are also members of the forum and can participate in whatever activities they want as they have time/ability. It doesn't make the latter case a "staff-run project", obviously. Otherwise, people would accuse the staff of being biased an promoting their friends (which is basically happening in reverse now anyway, even though -- as was pointed out -- a moderator has been occasionally involved).


Anyway, I realize people find the whole thing obtuse and political, so I'll just say flat out what I've been trying to allude to obliquely: Don't focus on trying to get a special exception. Focus instead on either a) finding a correlating aspect of the project that the staff would be willing to run themselves, or b) proposing a system whereby anyone who wants to run a community event could be promoted in a sort of standard way (and what such promotion could entail). You may think it's foolish that the staff won't just do what you want, but then it's just a game of who's being more stubborn (and, well, as someone who has been part of this site staff for a very long time, we're pretty ponderous and stubborn).



And, as for this...

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

That's not why we want you in the Choice Awards. We want you here because the community wants a confirmation that the moderator team, like the rest of the ones participating in this site, are actually watching anime. It's not any more complicated than that.

I don't really think that's the issue most people have. But I already explained why I personally don't participate in these awards -- I don't feel like I watch a large enough variety of anime to make a selection, and I never have. I've always been more of a niche fan. I don't feel these awards make sense for someone like me to vote in, since I'm not personally familiar with a lot of the choices (except in an "I've heard/read about it" way). That's why I said earlier that I felt these awards were more for connoisseurs than casual/genre fans. But I am always interested, in an abstract way, to see what the community feels was important and noteworthy.

My contention was that part of the low participation is for the same reason (perceiving that it's for critics, not for the average fan). But, that's just my own personal observation.

[Marcus H.]

The irony in thinking that connoisseurs are the only ones who can truly appreciate the Choice Awards is that it's more difficult to vote if you have a selection that is interfered by certain critical views on anime each season.

Why not try it out? Unless if you're watching 10 or less anime per year, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Anyway, I realize people find the whole thing obtuse and political, so I'll just say flat out what I've been trying to allude to obliquely: Don't focus on trying to get a special exception. Focus instead on either a) finding a correlating aspect of the project that the staff would be willing to run themselves, or b) proposing a system whereby anyone who wants to run a community event could be promoted in a sort of standard way (and what such promotion could entail). You may think it's foolish that the staff won't just do what you want, but then it's just a game of who's being more stubborn (and, well, as someone who has been part of this site staff for a very long time, we're pretty ponderous and stubborn).

OK. How about something like, a certain number of active members (Who been here > 6 months or something) on the forum willing to endorse the project? If there is enough (You guys can decided what that threshold of members is ~50?) public interest in the forum to make something happen, is that not a valid reason?

As for an example of an actionable item, that's the original idea of a simple announcement describing the awards. Perhaps others would have ideas what that could be.

[Tempester]

It's fun to have more people participating but what about the quality and range of taste of those participating? A lot of the kind of people who frequent their favorite series subforums and never glance at the General Anime subforum often come to ASuki just to talk about the very limited number of anime series they watch.

Most people who only went here for Re:Zero and Re:Zero alone would not have ever watched something like Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu. I bet that if we had managed to convince every person who posted in the current series subforum threads to vote in the ASuki Choice Awards for the year 2016, then Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu would definitely have not won the awards for best TV series (tied) and best male lead of 2016, and that Re:Zero would have won those awards instead (probably by a landslide). It seems that the people who often frequent the General Anime subforum of their own accord have much more willingness to try new and more obscure things in comparison to those who only view current anime threads for popular anime and only have interest in watching certain popular anime.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Tempester

It's fun to have more people participating but what about the quality and range of taste of those participating? A lot of the kind of people who frequent their favorite series subforums and never glance at the General Anime subforum often come to ASuki just to talk about the very limited number of anime series they watch.

Most people who only went here for Re:Zero and Re:Zero alone would not have ever watched something like Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu. I bet that if we had managed to convince every person who posted in the current series subforum threads to vote in the ASuki Choice Awards for the year 2016, then Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu would definitely have not won the awards for best TV series (tied) and best male lead of 2016, and that Re:Zero would have won those awards instead (probably by a landslide). It seems that the people who often frequent the General Anime subforum of their own accord have much more willingness to try new and more obscure things in comparison to those who only view current anime threads for popular anime and only have interest in watching certain popular anime.

Honestly this is sort of what I'm thinking too. If you want to get "the voices of the masses", you need to make it dead simple, and then accept that it'll really be a popularity contest. And if a popularity contest is what you want, then like I said before: just do a poll. It's easy, simple, and you don't need to read anything to know what to do: just click. "Best girl" contests/tournaments remain popular for that reason.

But there's so much thought and consideration that goes into the process for these awards that I don't think that's the sort of people you really want to attract with this. I think you want the voters for this sort of award to be people who will watch obscure things, and have some sense of the true merits of what they're voting for (and can give reasons behind their choices). Not the sort of people who only vote for Re:Zero and Rem because that's the only thing they watched from everything listed.

I may be wrong, but it feels to me that this project is trying to go more for "quality voters" than pure quantity, and I don't think that's so bad. (But if it's not what the organizers want, then that's another story.)

Originally Posted by Reckoner

OK. How about something like, a certain number of active members (Who been here > 6 months or something) on the forum willing to endorse the project? If there is enough (You guys can decided what that threshold of members is ~50?) public interest in the forum to make something happen, is that not a valid reason?

As for an example of an actionable item, that's the original idea of a simple announcement describing the awards. Perhaps others would have ideas what that could be.

I'd encourage you to spend a bit more time thinking about the procedure to propose something. I think I can see what you're getting at, but I think just getting endorsements alone makes it a pure popularity contest. If 50 people create a project to rename the forum to Anime McAnimeFace, I don't want to feel bound to "make it happen". I'd also be a little bit worried about making "petitioning for signatures" a thing on the forum as well. And what would stop anyone from just signing every single petition whether they believe in it or not?

At the very least there'd have to be some sort of criteria/rules governing what sort of projects can apply, and again the kind of support the staff would provide to projects that meet the agreed-upon criteria. Like, potentially, assuming we could get other community projects off the ground too, we could have a "Community Projects" pinned announcement and/or possibly periodic emails about the latest community projects? Just random ideas.

Another community project that some people like to try is "anime rewatch projects", and they struggle a bit with promotion too -- but if we start doing those, we wouldn't want to get dozens at once or it'd be pointless.

I can also say, on a quasi-related note, that we've toyed at various times with the idea of doing "community sub-forums" -- because I think everyone agrees that vBulletin's Social Groups are horribly hobbled and not what they should be. But there are logistics here (and vBulletin limitations) that make this difficult too.

So anyway, I guess all this to say that the staff weren't only thinking of this project in isolation when we previously received the request and considered it. If someone can figure out a good way to do it, we're more likely to create a system/framework to do something than to do try to manage exceptions.