Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans Episode 46 Discussion / Pol

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Wing Kigu

Perhaps this series is meant to be cautionary. There was a point where they could have walked away, Naze would still be alive, they could have lived an honest life doing business and lived a happy existence but they just kept reaching for more, making more and more enemies, gambling more and more every time until what was once the goal of wanting a comfortable life for your family became the Kings of Mars and a war with Gjallarhorn with no way out, that's how out of control it got.

No. There was never a point like that. They could have done things differently and been part of the space mafia longer, but it wouldn't have been the honest, peaceful life you describe, and it wouldn't have been safe. Sooner or later Jasley would have made his move. And even if Naze came out on top, some other snake later down the line would also try something. Because it's the space mafia.

Originally Posted by vic-vic

Honestly, I'm shocked that people continue to call Gaelio "blind" for following Rustal in his crusade against McGillis.

Sorry, but Gaelio for years tried his best to be a loyal friend and aid for Mackie and how did Chockoman repayed for this? Knife in the back, while boasting that his marriage to Almiria would give him a lot of power! Sorry, on Gelio's place, I would also consider every word from McGills' mouth as nothing more but pile of BS!

Not blind. Self-centered. Unable to see beyond personal relations. Those who are nice to him are nice, those who stab him, whether from the front or back, aren't. Even if, when shooting the shit, he claimed to share McGillis' ideals, he never did. He remained, and remains, a scion of the corrupt 7 Stars families.

Maybe McGillis' revolution won't improve things. But not having a revolution absolutely won't improve things for those who are at the bottom of the heap. So why not take a chance?

[vic-vic]

Gaelio tries to undertsnd McGillis, that's the reason why he waited so long before make a big announcement about his own survivial and Fareed's true colors. Gaelio just can't find a reason to believe in the ideals and good intentions of a backstabber who obessed with macguffin grom the past and honestly think everyone must bow to him once he had it.

And I agree.

Rustal very correctly stated that Mackie is a hypocrite that rely on a ancient rules of Gjallarhorn ti take the power and still preach about his wishes to get rid of corruption and stagnation.

[Stark700]

I'm surprised that Julieta survived that fight. I was almost certain that she would die from her injury or at least against someone like Mika...

Can't wait to see another McGillis vs Gaelio battle in the future. They have such an intense character chemistry. Also, it seems that others are noticing about Atra's recent change. Interesting.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by vic-vic

Gaelio tries to undertsnd McGillis, that's the reason why he waited so long before make a big announcement about his own survivial and Fareed's true colors. Gaelio just can't find a reason to believe in the ideals and good intentions of a backstabber who obessed with macguffin grom the past and honestly think everyone must bow to him once he had it.

And I agree.

Rustal very correctly stated that Mackie is a hypocrite that rely on a ancient rules of Gjallarhorn ti take the power and still preach about his wishes to get rid of corruption and stagnation.

I agree on the Agnika aspect. It's practically superstition, and McGillis relied on everyone being as superstitious as he is. Instead of seeing that if he can back-stab the Seven Stars, the Seven Stars can back-stab Agnika's ghost even more easily.

However, it doesn't mean the Seven Stars didn't deserve to be back-stabbed and a new order imposed on GH. And that's what Gaelio, despite "trying" to understand, doesn't see.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Gaelio's big beef with McGillis besides setting up Carta as a lamb to the slaughter, by giving her Tekkadan's route and endorsing her, is that despite the trust he gave to McGilliss McGilliss didn't trust him. It took him a whole year to realize he was a jerk to the space rats and he is mad that McGillis didn't trust him and got rid of him as a pawn?

And he has the gall to say he knows their pain being connected to Ein when he is fine while injustice happens to everybody who isn't Seven Stars? Ein is crazy rationalizing killing children not realizing Crank went half-ass about it valuing his unit's safety than saving kids.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by vic-vic

Honestly, I'm shocked that people continue to call Gaelio "blind" for following Rustal in his crusade against McGillis.

Sorry, all those words about beautiful future come from the mouth of sociopathic manipulator and backstabber... I would also more than happy to crush such "lovely future". Indeed, revolution can brinmg changes, but who said those changes would be for the better?!

Gaelio can not see beyond his own personal experience. I don't blame him for this, but it does make him unable to see thing from any other point of view other than his own. That's why he doesn't understand.

And I'm sorry, even if it goes south, with this being the first time in centuries that there is a real chance of change versus NO change at all? Yeah, I would take the possibility of change every time. And again, you keep making McGillis' sins sound as if they are worse than Rustal's? How? Why? Simply because he helps Gaelio in revenge?

That's why we say Gali is blind, because he's willing to overlook Rustal's own sins, in order to please his own desires and yet he preaches to others that they should consider Macky's sins as a deciding factor on their own loyalty. He can't see a bigger picture beyond himself.

Originally Posted by Wing Kigu

There's a difference between taking a risk and throwing away your life. When Orga slugged him in the face in ep44 and made it clear to McGillis that he'd never gamble the lives of Tekkadan in a loosing battle, McGillis made it seem like he had an ace up his sleeve and the whole thing under his complete control, clearly he was deceiving them.

Unless Bael sprouts wings and activates the Moonlight butterfly they are basically screwed 8 to 1.

I was talking from a story point of view, that's why they stack the odds so high, so that there will be a better payoff as the story goes on. And the fact that you think they are "screwed 8 to 1" shows they are doing their job well.

If we're talking in story, McGillis did have a plan. A plan that should have worked but didn't. So, yes, now he's having to improvise. Perhaps it was your own interpretation that decided he had an ace up his sleeve? Because he never said that. He was just projecting his usual confident facial expression he usually does, and again, he's not going to look like he's shaking in his boots. He has to show confidence as the leader of all this.

I guess you could call that deception, but it's one that all leaders have to do. Orga does it all the time. Project confidence for your men, even if you might not feel it yourself.

Is that seriously how you view that snake McGillis? He's extremely power-hungry with delusions of grandeur, that's it. He doesn't care about creating a better world, or any noble ideals it's obvious he just wants to rule and the benefits of rule and that's it and it's so blatant it's insulting that I actually refused to believe it.

It's an act, he tells people what they want to hear, they project their hopes on him and sacrifice on his behalf, then he stabs them in the back. But people are so desperate for change and something to believe in that they do it anyway, even though he's clearly evil. Of Course Gaelio wants him dead. Try to imagine the humiliation and shame to know his best friend
of 20 years was using him the entire time, orchestrating the death of his family, scheming to take his baby sister + the family seat of power for himself, and eventually his very life etc and Gaelio naively trusted that evil creature the entire time.

No,sorry, I don't see him that way.

You're projecting what Gali sees rather than the reality, and we know that Gali's view is tainted by his own desire for revenge. He's jaded now and thinks because Macky betrayed him and hurt him, that he does the same with everyone.

The thing is he doesn't. McGillis never betrayed his own men, nor Isurugi, and has yet to do so with Tekkadan, and I don't think he will. He has stayed true to what he's stated this entire time. Just because he betrayed two people (Carta is iffy since he didn't really care about her in the first place). doesn't mean he betrays everyone.

Also, again, this is about the bigger picture here. Beyond Gaelio, beyond McGillis. I'm looking at what this revolution means as a whole, and its bigger than the sins of one man.

I can see it in the final battle he's gonna betray Tekkadan and try dispose of them after they've served their purpose...

Question....why? McGillis has two ships left. He's been closed down at every door. He's on the run and he's about to make his last stand on Mars? Why would he betray the only ally he has left?

Also, how? There's no one to betray them to. Gjallarhorn is mostly after him, Tekkadan would be on the side. And everyone knows they all work together. And he doesn't have the manpower to dispose of them. Even if he was stupid enough to try.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I guess you could call that deception, but it's one that all leaders have to do. Orga does it all the time. Project confidence for your men, even if you might not feel it yourself.

And he rightfully catches shit when he fails to keep up the pretense.

[Haak]

Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't help but think the show was making a political statement through Gaelio: McGillis is the one selling himself as the supposed populist for the working man (whilst Rustal himself represents the Establishment through and through).

[DMurphy]

Like everything in IBO, this is kind of a thorny situation from a moral and ethical standpoint.

The system that Rustal represents is horrific. I don't think that can be questioned: It is corrupt, it encourages poverty, it shuffles power and authority to the top and brutally cracks down on any attempt people make to improve their lives.

Is the system that would result from McGillis' revolution not horrific? No, it probably is also absolutely terrible. McGillis is an unhinged sociopath with paedophilic tendencies and a preoccupation with a dead man, who utilises child soldiers and doesn't seem to have any kind of solid plan for how his system would work, bar that it'd most likely have him in charge.

The question then comes down to 'Would McGillis' system be any better than Rustal's, would it be worse, or is there a third way?'

My suspicion is that McGillis' revolution will succeed, but he himself is going to die, Gjallarhorn will collapse, and Kudelia -- as a revolutionary figure who genuinely cares about people -- will create something genuinely good out of that. If that's the case, then McGillis' revolution will be a net positive for anyone, clearing the way for a genuinely good system to emerge.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

Like everything in IBO, this is kind of a thorny situation from a moral and ethical standpoint.

The system that Rustal represents is horrific. I don't think that can be questioned: It is corrupt, it encourages poverty, it shuffles power and authority to the top and brutally cracks down on any attempt people make to improve their lives.

Is the system that would result from McGillis' revolution not horrific? No, it probably is also absolutely terrible. McGillis is an unhinged sociopath with paedophilic tendencies and a preoccupation with a dead man, who utilises child soldiers and doesn't seem to have any kind of solid plan for how his system would work, bar that it'd most likely have him in charge.

The question then comes down to 'Would McGillis' system be any better than Rustal's, would it be worse, or is there a third way?'

My suspicion is that McGillis' revolution will succeed, but he himself is going to die, Gjallarhorn will collapse, and Kudelia -- as a revolutionary figure who genuinely cares about people -- will create something genuinely good out of that. If that's the case, then McGillis' revolution will be a net positive for anyone, clearing the way for a genuinely good system to emerge.

Eh. Even if McGillis fails to make a good system (as he probably would, "realistically"), he will destabilize the situation enough that the next revolutionary will have an easier time rising and overturning whatever's there (still the old GH after McGillis fails to seize power? a new GH fashioned by a successful McGillis that's horrible in a different way?). And the next and the next after that, if need be. They'll get it right eventually.

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Eh. Even if McGillis fails to make a good system (as he probably would, "realistically"), he will destabilize the situation enough that the next revolutionary will have an easier time rising and overturning whatever's there (still the old GH after McGillis fails to seize power? a new GH fashioned by a successful McGillis that's horrible in a different way?). And the next and the next after that, if need be. They'll get it right eventually.

Well, that's not how revolutions always work.

The Russian Revolution didn't lead to any better system, or make it easier for a better one to emerge through revolution: It resulted in the rise of the Soviet Union, leading directly onto Stalinist totalitarianism, leading on to the brutal and borderline-totalitarian modern Russian Federation.

The Roundhead Revolution was even less successful, leading to a very short-lived, violent theocracy under Puritan rule, before reverting back to the previous system.

The only really successful revolution I can think of is the French Revolution, and even then it led to decades of strife before a working system arose out of it.

Of course, the world of IBO has a trump card in the form of Kudelia, who probably really could craft a system that, while not perfect, would be genuinely better than anything Rustal or McGillis could or would want to come up with.

[Key Board]

IBO is a conflict between the disenfranchised lower class vs the ruling upper class

When you have a situation like that, the middle class will either stay silent or side with the upper class.
Because despite wanting things to be better, the middle class has enough to lose and don't like surprises. They would prefer the status quo, to uncertainty.
Unlike Space rats they still have options and won't shake the boat

What does "Gjallarhorn corruption" mean to an average citizen? Probably nothing. After all they're not the space rat human debris being exploited.
To most of the world I suppose Tekkadan and McGillis are enemy to society, and they are in a way, because they are challenging normalcy

[Knight_SV]

i wonder how tekkadan and mcgillis will turn tide these situation, they are on the lose-lose situation now

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Wing Kigu

I think there's a possibility we won't be getting a happy ending from this series..

Going into this grim final battle I wanted to believe McGillis had some amazing trick up his sleeve, that Bael had some special powers or the soul of Agnika Kaieru was telling him secrets and guiding him towards victory but no, it's clear none of that is happening.

Bael has no magic powers, it's largely just symbolic, no genius plan from McGillis is gonna save the day, everything is going wrong and as time goes on it's becoming more and more apparent that he was just a con man. And it's terrible because so many characters put their faith in him, more specifically how he portrayed himself as, even after it was obvious he was about to die multiple times these past episodes (the fear in his eyes when he gets fired upon by dainslaif, Isurugi sacrificing himself to save his ass), even after that catastrophic defeat he's still acting extremely smug and self assured even though his ass was just handed to him by Galileo and it's obvious to us in the audience he has no real plan and is making it up as he goes along.

And Tekeddan is stuck with him, if he goes down, Mika and the gang are going down with him. It's a terrible situation to be in and their gonna need a miracle to make it out alive, let alone become Kings of Mars...

Yeah, I was surprised by the same thing. I can't believe the battle was lost so decisively. Sure, they needed a magical miracle to turn it around before. But now they need that even more, and it just doesn't seem like one will occur. Pretty cool how they are managing to keep things unpredictable.

[chi4ko]

On the whole thing with McGillis being stuck in a fairy tale fantasy:



Seeing the downfall of characters whose stupidity knows no bounds is always a treat.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Key Board

IBO is a conflict between the disenfranchised lower class vs the ruling upper class

When you have a situation like that, the middle class will either stay silent or side with the upper class.
Because despite wanting things to be better, the middle class has enough to lose and don't like surprises. They would prefer the status quo, to uncertainty.
Unlike Space rats they still have options and won't shake the boat

What does "Gjallarhorn corruption" mean to an average citizen? Probably nothing. After all they're not the space rat human debris being exploited.
To most of the world I suppose Tekkadan and McGillis are enemy to society, and they are in a way, because they are challenging normalcy

Indeed, this is exactly the reason why the Bolsheviks did what they did during the Russian Revolutionary period, as they knew very well that the Bourgeoisie were as much enablers of counterrevolution as the upper classes. Positive change requires in a sense a revolutionary alignment of the mobilized lower classes with sympathetic elements of the upper classes to have the necessary breadth of action. Kudelia in this case serves as a major element in this.

Originally Posted by Jaden

Yeah, I was surprised by the same thing. I can't believe the battle was lost so decisively. Sure, they needed a magical miracle to turn it around before. But now they need that even more, and it just doesn't seem like one will occur. Pretty cool how they are managing to keep things unpredictable.

It's not impossible for them to turn things around, just extremely difficult, which is why in this instance securing Mars would be critical in achieving a turnaround. Mobilizing frustrated yet uninvolved folks similar to the Dort workers is another element that could help their endurance.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Key Board

IBO is a conflict between the disenfranchised lower class vs the ruling upper class

When you have a situation like that, the middle class will either stay silent or side with the upper class.
Because despite wanting things to be better, the middle class has enough to lose and don't like surprises. They would prefer the status quo, to uncertainty.
Unlike Space rats they still have options and won't shake the boat

What does "Gjallarhorn corruption" mean to an average citizen? Probably nothing. After all they're not the space rat human debris being exploited.
To most of the world I suppose Tekkadan and McGillis are enemy to society, and they are in a way, because they are challenging normalcy

It depends on how much of a middle class there is. Middle class, compared to the other two, is actually relatively new.

Here in this universe, it seems to break down that people from Earth are the top class and get all the advantages with Gjallarhorn being at the top of that as basically aristocrats. After that, the people from Earth on the colonies would be next, and then the upper class government officials from Mars and Jupiter such as Kudelia and her family.
After them, everything kind of equalizes with low level colonists born on the colonies and those born on other planets being at the very bottom.

People like Nobliss, McMurdo and such are outliers, sort of a merchant class I guess, who stay to themselves.

This revolution would ultimately affect everyone, but in different ways. Earth would take the longest to change since its kept in their own little bubble away from all the harms of the rest of space, and they rarely experience the horrors of the rest of the system. The others of the planets and lower levels of the colonies would be care about it much more acutely.

[AswgLaghima08]

Julias cockpit is behind that white bulging chest piece right, and julia is supposed to be bigger than Graze-Ein so I dont find it hard to believe that she survived Mace-san as it pierced below that chest armor. And ive seen some on reddit pissed because she is still alive and was able to keep Mika at bay for the most part. They feel she shouldnt stand a chance because she doesnt have Av and its lazy writing to keep he alive... Really imo I wouldve found it worse had she died there BECAUSE she is the only one without CW tech that's currently able to stand her ground with him.

Another thing .. Why do folks assume AV automatically makes you the better pilot? It doesn't seriously widen any gaps aslong as the Non av pilot is Ace material.
Azee, lafter and Amida were stronger than shino, akihiro and mika as pilots.

Hate Mace-san as a primary weapon, hated it in s1 too. Bladed weapons are more my speed.

I wonder what Kimaris shields are made of, mabye same gold stuff but painted or just the Dainsleif underneath makes it sturdy idk.
Bael shoots from the wings! Macky already knew about the Gali AV right? So in that scene when his sword is blocked by the shield, he says something about gali using forbidden tech too...

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by AswgLaghima08

Hate Mace-san as a primary weapon, hated it in s1 too. Bladed weapons are more my speed.

I wonder what Kimaris shields are made of, mabye same gold stuff but painted or just the Dainsleif underneath makes it sturdy idk.
Bael shoots from the wings! Macky already knew about the Gali AV right? So in that scene when his sword is blocked by the shield, he says something about gali using forbidden tech too...

McGillis is referring to Ein's remains being inside the Kimaris, I think. He knows Gali uses AV, but when Gali alludes to Ein, McG connects the dots of 'Gali has AV' + 'Kimaris has no limiters' + 'Ein was made into Robo-Ein' + 'Gali alluding to him' and figures out what's up.

As far as the mace, while I'm not keen on it either, it makes sense for Mika: It's a traditionally brutish weapon, whereas swords are generally reserved for either heroic characters or ones who are cool and calculating.

[haseo0408]

Originally Posted by vic-vic

Gaelio tries to undertsnd McGillis, that's the reason why he waited so long before make a big announcement about his own survivial and Fareed's true colors. Gaelio just can't find a reason to believe in the ideals and good intentions of a backstabber who obessed with macguffin grom the past and honestly think everyone must bow to him once he had it.

And I agree.

Rustal very correctly stated that Mackie is a hypocrite that rely on a ancient rules of Gjallarhorn ti take the power and still preach about his wishes to get rid of corruption and stagnation.

The thing is that McGuilis nows the irony of using the old ways of Gallajhorn he hates so much to produce change, but can´t be help. The reason I belive Mackie is in the right in this fight is exactly what Isurugi said in his last moments, Rustal and Gaelio are the elite, they think the current system is fine the way it is because it doesn´t hurt them, no mmatter how much Eins tough Gaelio about the suffering of the least fortunate he clrearly does not undestand. That´s why they fight to protect that sick status quo, they see the world beyond fixing and gave up and that is true insanity.