Male Supremecy

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Originally Posted by Yogi

I mean, Anko had to be saved by Anbu, you know the same "elite" squad that spends it's time getting kicked around by pretty much everyone. She was SUPPOSED to be a Jounin.

If the females in the Naruto-verse happen to be all be bad at fighting, that would be somehow excusable. However, they are all GOOD at fighting and STILL lose.

Bah.

Err Anko was saved from OROCHIMARU. lol.

Also we must remember a simple fact.

Ratio's.

The ratio of male:female is very different . Their are many more males in the series.
Thus it would make logical sense their is a higher chance that a male will win a fight. That doenst mean that males arent losing fights.

Zabuza got his ass kicked,
Haku got his ass kicked,
Hayate got his ass killed,
Sarutobi got his ass killed,
Kakashi got his ass kicked,
Asuma was lucky or he would have got his ass kicked,
Shikamaru got his ass kicked. YAYA he "won" the fight but he didnt. He ran out of chakra and lost. HE LOST.
Gaara got his ass kicked,
Kankuro got his ass kicked,
Lee got his ass kicked,

As you can see the list long. Its not as if males dont lose. Did you watch episode 89 ? They made Tsunade and her nameless sidekick hella baddass. She almost "pwned" Kabuto.

Hinata is a unique character. She has a lot of inner strenth. Temari is just bad-ass. Like wise Tsunade is very deadly herself. Yes sakura may be useless and crappy but so is Chouji.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Err Anko was saved from OROCHIMARU. lol.

No, against some lions AFTER the orochimaru fight,\.

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Also we must remember a simple fact.

Ratio's.

The ratio of male:female is very different . Their are many more males in the series.
Thus it would make logical sense their is a higher chance that a male will win a fight. That doenst mean that males arent losing fights.

*Worthless Statistics snipped*

Uh, here's a clue. All of those fights you mensioned were men fighting other men (except the Shika fight which I'll touch on later). So when one man lost, another won. Therefore ratio is around 1 to 1.

For women it's more like 2:1, possibly even 5:1 depending on how to classify a "win." The Great Sannin Throwdown makes it difficult to decide who actually won aginst who.

As for Shikamaru vs. Tanmari, while Shikamaru said he was out of Chakara, he still had enough to hold nine chunin later on. Since the shadow bind could be overpowered, and he was holding NINE fairly powerful ninjas, he obviously had more Chakara than he was letting on.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Originally Posted by Yogi

No, against some lions AFTER the orochimaru fight,\.

Uh, here's a clue. All of those fights you mensioned were men fighting other men (except the Shika fight which I'll touch on later). So when one man lost, another won. Therefore ratio is around 1 to 1.

For women it's more like 2:1, possibly even 5:1 depending on how to classify a "win." The Great Sannin Throwdown makes it difficult to decide who actually won aginst who.

As for Shikamaru vs. Tanmari, while Shikamaru said he was out of Chakara, he still had enough to hold nine chunin later on. Since the shadow bind could be overpowered, and he was holding NINE fairly powerful ninjas, he obviously had more Chakara than he was letting on.

Doesnt matter if they were men fighting men. Im pointing out the fact that because they are so many males in the series, they lose a lot as well as win a lot.

You wanted kurenai to beat Itachi?
You wanted anko to beat Orochimaru?

The only "fair level" fights you ahve to gauge your claims are the chuunin exams. And in that setting their were three male vs female fights. Two was won by a males (remember what i said about ratios of male:female), and the other was one by a female.

Shikamaru beat Neji's team mate in the first boy vs girl fight.
Temari beat shikamaru in the second fight.
Neji beat Hinata (mark my words. by the end of hte series hinata will be as strong as neji.)

End of story.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Doesnt matter if they were men fighting men. Im pointing out the fact that because they are so many males in the series, they lose a lot as well as win a lot.

And the ladies lose a lot and win very little, which is my point.

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

You wanted kurenai to beat Itachi?
You wanted anko to beat Orochimaru?

I wanted them put against people they COULD have won against. A few dozen Random Enemy Ninja would have served the purpose just fine.

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

The only "fair level" fights you ahve to gauge your claims are the chuunin exams. And in that setting their were three male vs female fights. Two was won by a males (remember what i said about ratios of male:female), and the other was one by a female.

Why am I only restricted to using those fights again?

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Shikamaru beat Neji's team mate in the first boy vs girl fight.
Temari beat shikamaru in the second fight.
Neji beat Hinata (mark my words. by the end of hte series hinata will be as strong as neji.)

Nope. Shikamaru beat Random Sound Ninja in his first fight. Tenmari beat Neji's teammate.

I would also like to being attention to the Sakura/Ino fight in which BOTH girls lost. That drives the win/lose ratio down even furthur.

And you know my opinions on Tenamari vs. Shikamaru.

Let's say, for some reason, we restrict the win/loss to ONLY Chunin exmam.

Sasuke (m) beats Random Sound Ninja (m)
Shikamaru (m) beats Random Sound Ninja (f)
Kankuro (m) beats Random Sound Ninja (m)
Naruto (m) beats Kiba (m)
Neji (m) beats Hinata (f)
Shino (m) beats Random SoundNinja (m)
Random Sound Ninja (m) beats Choji (m)
Tenmari (f) beats Tenten (f)
Gaara (m) beats Rock Lee (m)
Sakura (f) and Ino (f) both lose
Naruto (m) beats Neji (m)
Because I'm too tired to argue, Tenmari (f) beats Shikamaru (m)

*Score Tally no Jutsu*

Male: 9 wins 8 losses
Female: 2 wins 5 losses

[EnergyRift]

Hmm.. the points, are quite a few, but aren't complete..

We talk about how women get their ass kicked even though they are competent fighters, but we forget, that males are getting their ass kicked at the same rate. Haku, Zabuza, they both got their asses handed to them, sure but other male fighters, but they still lost, and Sasuke pretty much lost.. >.>; Especially since Haku was being nice and not trying to kill them. Not to mention all the other fights in which men LOSE.

Women, are not incompetent, I mean they have their problems, they tend to be more emotional then males, Sakura, and they have their bad moments. Let's begin a quick thought..

But beforehand, let us remember.. a ninja isn't only based off fighting abilities, which seems to be the main point around the male characters, it is also skill, instinct, knowledge, wisdom, etc etc. Being the best doesn't mean being the stronger..

Sakura: Obviously she's not the greatest fighter, she's intelligent bookwise, but lacks combat abilities, and is very moody. She's a teenage girl.. well around there.. Of course she's moody, especially lovesick, and obviously has good potential, seeing as her ability to mold chakra is a strong point, but she just needs to pass this hump to become a greater fighter.

Tsunade: She is hokage after all.. I mean.. come on.. Her abilities of healing.. are miraculous.. you have to give her props for that, because seriously, healing is on a whole different level then fighting.

Temari: Yea, of course she's cool, because she's a strong male, she isn't weak, and she doesn't back down, she isn't as much of a strategic, as she is brute force, like the males, and like the males, I bet she can withstand a battle.

We are all forgetting.. the girl with the flute, ability to summon the 3 demons.. I mean come on.. that's fairly kick ass, she is strong..

The girl with the bells, and needles, we don't know much about, because she only tried that strategy, which was quickly dominated by Shika's shadow control..

Kurenai, is.. well.. it's Itachi.. everyone gets owned.. it happens.. let's move on..

But obviously the blood limits seem to favor male characters.. but it's target audience is males..

But overall, females obviously are lesser roles, but still, they exist, on an equal level. It's like.. the difference between a chick flick.. and action movie.. When was the last time you saw a female hero, in a GOOD action movie? I said good.. shut up all of you, who think boobies, means win..

[fenikkusu]

wow energyrift.... I think you just threw yourself to the lions lol. but actually both of them have good points and I can see both of there arguements,

but what about anbu leader woman? she took care of a bunch of sound ninjas.

[Yogi]

* Smack *
It's not about women losing, it's about them almost never winning (the first female win against a male occured during the most recent arc, Shikamaru vs. One of the Sound Four)

Unless you wish to count Tenmari/Shikamaru or the Great Sannin Throwdown (where the chaotic nature of the battle makes accurate win/loss tallys impossible).

[Narutto Kyuubi]

Gah.... Do you realize that the women that lost the fights didn't lose because they were women, so your point is totaly...um..err...pointless...hehe. If those fights where any random guy ninja at the same ranking they still would have lost the fight. If anko was a guy he still would have needed help after fighting Oro.

Shikamaru (m) beats Random Sound Ninja (f)

if the sound nin was a guy he stil would h ave lost.

Neji (m) beats Hinata (f)

if hinata was a guy with the same bloodlimit amount he would have lost against neji also.

These are fights where the other guy loses more for story purposes, they really didn't have a chance at wining to begin with (as far as the story goes).

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Narutto Kyuubi

Gah.... Do you realize that the women that lost the fights didn't lose because they were women, so your point is totaly...um..err...pointless...hehe.
*Bullshit Snipped*

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you. I say that the female characters get put into situations in which their loss is gaurenteed. Don't beleive me? Check the win loss ratio above.

[fenikkusu]

Originally Posted by Yogi

* Smack *
It's not about women losing, it's about them almost never winning (the first female win against a male occured during the most recent arc, Shikamaru vs. One of the Sound Four)

Unless you wish to count Tenmari/Shikamaru or the Great Sannin Throwdown (where the chaotic nature of the battle makes accurate win/loss tallys impossible).

yogi .. who was that smack supose to be dilivered to ? if to me .. for what reasoN?

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by fenikkusu

yogi .. who was that smack supose to be dilivered to ? if to me .. for what reasoN?

That smack was for.

Originally Posted by EnergyRift

We talk about how women get their ass kicked even though they are competent fighters, but we forget, that males are getting their ass kicked at the same rate.

Since I addressed his point in the previous post I felt it justified.

[fenikkusu]

oohhh .. ohkay , i thought maybe it was for me since it was after my post . thought maybe you where smaking me for saying the anbu girl killing all the sound nins that she did

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

I think the more important question is... Who the hell cares if girls lose more than males do?

[fenikkusu]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

I think the more important question is... Who the hell cares if girls lose more than males do?

wow... i'm sure yugi is going to like that post. but an interesting theory none the less. come to think of it... i would really like to see more of anko and kurina , if ther fighting or just standing there. doesnt matter to me..they just need more airtime

[evil_edea]

i would really like to see more of anko and kurina , if ther fighting or just standing there. doesnt matter to me..they just need more airtime

I think all the adult side characters need more airtime.

[fenikkusu]

Originally Posted by evil_edea

I think all the adult side characters need more airtime.

yes.. this is true. I always thought it would be a good idea to have a spin off of naruto that could be on sundays or sumthing . It could focus around the jounins and maybe there misions. or just a certian team of jounins . well.. I think I have always wanted that just to get a naruto fix in the middle of the wait for the next episode.

[evil_edea]

yes.. this is true. I always thought it would be a good idea to have a spin off of naruto that could be on sundays or sumthing . It could focus around the jounins and maybe there misions. or just a certian team of jounins . well.. I think I have always wanted that just to get a naruto fix in the middle of the wait for the next episode.

It should feature Kurenai, Asuma, and Gai just sitting around in their underwear gossiping about their students and the village in general. And every now and then, Kakashi could show up and there would be uncomfortable silences since he's excluded from the group. Or, they could, you know, go on missions and stuff. I would love to watch something like that.

[fenikkusu]

Originally Posted by evil_edea

It should feature Kurenai, Asuma, and Gai just sitting around in their underwear gossiping about their students and the village in general. And every now and then, Kakashi could show up and there would be uncomfortable silences since he's excluded from the group. Or, they could, you know, go on missions and stuff. I would love to watch something like that.

hahaaha... lol, kurenai in her underwear ??? sounds interesting... but I think them going on misions would be a little more interesting.

[EbonySeraphim]

I think some of the Tsunade related stuff people have been saying needs to be in spoiler tags. Remember that guys. There is no manga label on this thread.

Reading most of the posts in this thread has been rather painful. Both some of the "real world" connections brought up and some of the interpretations of what is happening with the females in Naruto. I'll say this before hand - I don't hold negative opinions of women in real life, I am merely recognizing what I know to be true in real life, and what is going on in Naruto.

First of all, in Naruto the women really are made pretty badly - as weak characters. None of this ....

Spoiler:

"she is Hokage,"

... "she has stronger moves than Shikamaru," or "come on she was up against Orochimaru/Itachi" has real grounds. Addressing these common defenses (for the women in Naruto) in order - Tsunade is by far the strongest female character in Naruto.

Spoiler:

But she didn't show much dominance against Kabuto who was even below her level. Unfortuntately there are hardly any battles to examine. We see that she held her own in the battle involving her and Jiraiya and Orochimaru, but of course she had an ally. Even worse, she showed signs of struggle against someone considerably below her level (Kabuto). The blood phobia thing was a bit of a crappy way to explain why Tsunade should be "nerfed" in this fight. She very well should have been able to avoid it, knowing she would be disturbed to that extent.

Though none of this stuff makes her seem completely weak, it is enough to induce the idea that Tsunade isn't untouchable. Compare her to situation to Orochimaruo who easily brushes off Anko, and isn't slightly troubled by Kakashi (who is said to be on Kabuto's level - I'd say Kakashi is even better). And we also have Jiariya who fought with Itachi and Kisame and causes both of them to run away (I'm not implying in fear). Itachi also says that both he and Kisame combined and at best are probably a tie with Jiraiya. Certain things boast the legendary sannin's power. Only in the case of Tsnude has it not been backed up reliably through what they do in actual battles.

In Temari's case, Shikamaru said he thought of 200 moves but was too lazy to execute them. There were probably no effortless ways for him to win the fight so he decided to give up instead of actually breaking a sweat to beat Temari or actually make her loose. Also, Shikamaru's character is known to not have very powerful jutsu in his arsenal. He is a brilliant strategist but still considered weaker than other male characters in Naruto. Though anime filler, we see Temari getting owned by Sasuke later. And I'm sure no one could see Temari winning against some of the non-crappy male characters like Lee, Neji, Sasuke, Gaara, or Naruto, yet Temari is supposed to be one of the non crappy female characters on the genin level.

With Kurenai and Itachi - so far we don't really know what Itachi's level really is. It definitely is over that of most jounin, but it is still not Sannin level. Itachi is not some undefeatable entity and his character is shown to have finite strength. Kurenai is supposedly an upper level jounin along with Kakashi, Asuma, and Gai but yet she is the only one shown that wasn't holding her own against these guys (Kisame and Itachi). Granted she was the one doing the tango against Itachi, but she seemed completely unable to defend herself and was a world away from actually winning. She is supposed to be a genjutsu specialist and yet she wasn't even close to phasing Itachi with it? I think that's a pretty bad display on her part.

Anko's case doesn't have much either. She was up against a Sannin that I didn't expect her to win against, but she barely made Orochimaru work. He pretty much laughed at her the whole time as she showed no intelligence and acted extremely rash the whole time. The suicide attack she was about to do is definitely something ninja's shouldn't take lightly, especially when they don't know if they are in front of a clone or kawarimi(replacement) or not. Someone on Anko's level shouldn't make such a stupid mistake against anyone.

All of that female bashing was just to establish what is undeniably happening and being shown in Naruto. It's ugly, but true in Naruto. I believe it is pretty unjustified too. While it is biologically true that females are weaker physically than males, their minds aren't any different. In fact, they could be stronger given a situation like real life(and Naruto) - one where they come with the disposition of being weak. They tend to want to prove that very wrong and end up trying very hard, often acheiving more than males do. I have seen that throughout grade school, middle school, high school, and even now in college. In general, females seem to put more effort into their work and will get better grades than males for one reason or another. One thing I must sadly admit though is that, I generally see more males (and generally only males) turn out to be geniuses or initially smart or talented. Most of the girls I have known that make near, at, or over a 4.0 GPA are very hard workers that get their homework done everyday, study for every test and quiz, and are very much so angels. There are some males like that, so its all the same when average males and females try hard. Sometimes though, I see males that are obscenely smart, know their stuff, and barely put in any effort, yet they still make A's on every test and have around a 4.0 GPA. Except for visual, performing, and fine arts, I haven't seen any female that really knows things for the sake of knowing them, that hold extremely high talent without hard work. I don't deny that they exist, but I would think it is a bit more rare to see a successful female that got there just because of pure ability and not hard work. In general, I'm trying to say that males are lazy bastards, and women aren't. Those are general statements and aren't applied to people, rather are shown by them. There are males that try hard, and there are females that are naturally talented. It takes the extreme rare scenario of combing hard work and genius to end up with someone truly smart.

The better fix for Naruto - Someone like Sakura, Ino, and Hinata should probably be among the top students in the class because they put in more effort than most of the lazy (or stupid) guys like Naruto, Shikamaru, and Chouji. I would even push to say that grade-wise they would probably score higher than Sasuke on exams because Sasuke didn't seem too much like the hardworking type. With Hinata's ability, she should undoubtably be someone who would have superior battle ability. Ino should have superior mental ability. And Sakura should have an overall betterness to her, and maybe be genjutsu focused. It make's sense if Kishimoto wants to put women in a position where they are generally weaker than men, but in real life,(at least in America) often they end up doing better than men at a lot of things because they try harder. It takes insane effort though to beat a genius putting in average, and maybe even below average effort so people like Neji should still remain at the top. Of course there should be the rare scenarios where you have a hardworking and talented ninja that is still female who should be someone like Tsunade. But they even show her slipping up a bit so that kind of messes up any hope for females in Naruto.

I have written too much but I want to come back around to a few things other people were talking a about. Someone mentioned that the male/female wins and losses weren't that off. The thing to consider and watch out for are the fight that are males vs females. Male vs Male losses and wins don't count for anything as a loss by one male is a win for another making it even. Same thing applies for females. The fact of the matter is that when females are put up against male characters, they lose almost always. They may be underdogs some of the time, but the series loves to show Naruto and other males as an underdog competeing with the bigger boys over their level. Why can't females do the same?

</rant>

[fenikkusu]

man... why are your posts always so long ??? my eyes hurt so much