Closure on Kaede

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, for what it's worth, this is where I think they faultered. "Dramatically brilliant" or not, it was entirely out of character with the story's tone thus far and with the game, and they simply couldn't recover from the divergence. At the time, I felt it was a cheap trick to get attention; a trick that worked, of course.

Yeah, that was pretty much my thinking as well (can't believe I'm actually commenting on this, haven't we all left this in the past ) - it's significantly easier simply not to have Kaede break down to fix the story. There's no real reason for it anyway - it's not brilliant character development, it's a cheap plot-twist that's been thrown in that makes almost no sense. Chiefly, how come the same thing didn't happen when he was practically making babies on the beach with Sia? She didn't seem that bothered by him wandering around doing whatever for most of the show.

I still say it's the model ero-game to anime conversion, as evidenced by the fact that people who disliked the show are still discussing it months after it's ended. Canvas 2 had too little. Too little plot, too little character development, too little everything. For my money Lamune was the series that did it best - short, to the point, basically ignored all the side routes.

(and yes, I still find it amusing that Vexx actually scored this show higher than I did )

[Potatochobit]

how dare you call Kaede a cheap trick. i will beat you with a raw fish.


there are 5 girls. trying to smush all that into one story seemed to work ok i think. her bubble didnt pop yet during the beach scene but im sure it helped lead up to that point. however, she always knew that Asa had taken his attention long ago.

i cant agree with your choice of Lamune though.

Kaede cant use magic. she is not from another world. if it wasnt for her psycho syndrome she would just be plain vanilla flavor. and we all know rin likes his Napoleon.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, for what it's worth, this is where I think they faultered. "Dramatically brilliant" or not, it was entirely out of character with the story's tone thus far and with the game, and they simply couldn't recover from the divergence. At the time, I felt it was a cheap trick to get attention; a trick that worked, of course. Had the show not have gone psycho thriller overboard, the closing arc would have made a lot more sense exactly as presented. So, rather than blame the ending (which was pretty much straight from the game), I blame the anime-invented "turn". Skip 19 & 20, and the ending's (more or less) fine for Kaede, Rin, and Asa (well, minus the inherent lameness of Asa's game ending, such as her reasons for not using magic, etc.). Sometimes resorting to cheap tricks comes at a price. But at the same time, I recognize that any attention is good attention - just think of how much less attention Shuffle would have garnered without all the controversy.

aye.. though I'm not sure how I would handle Kaede under that scenario ... just sit in the corner and rock? They would have needed Rin to engage in some extended conversation with Kaede that didn't lead to KGNE/SchoolDays/Hig suicide or mayhem. Let me stew on how I would have handled Kaede's arc ending without a dramatic explosion...

I do see where you're coming from --- I'd have MUCH rather the story stayed in the romantic comedy with adventure overtones that it had been up to that point. That would also have led to the probable polygamous ending (hilarity ensues).

In the end, I blame the managing writer/editor for allowing the pieces to get so disconnected that threading them together was just a mess. .... but I also fundamentally think that Asa's arc needed to be rewritten to eliminate the inherent lameness.

Obviously a lot of us agree that Lamune was handled well
Yeah... they must have taken that poll before the series ended --- I really enjoyed Shuffle as light entertainment for the first 18 episodes (even when it got fairly serious). 19-20 were interesting to me (I suppose melodramatic but I thought it worked) but the other posters are on the spot that it was seriously disconnected from the rest of the series. Asa's arc ... (see above).
And then I think most of the viewers wanted to crush something during the last 15 minutes of the last episode because of the lousy animation. The reset attempt might not have been so lame if the preceding 8 episodes had not been so serious.

Mostly I wander into the forum to see if the translation is getting anywhere ( since I have this game you know...) then I make the mistake of reading the threads.... my bad.

I'm not sure the attention Navel garnered had long term positive gain .... Soul Link ... well, bleh and the total lack of merchandising for it leads me to believe the demographic left the hall in droves. I think Navel deepsixed themselves but we'll see how Kaede's game sells ...

[Js2756]

Originally Posted by hanxthre

Whose deluting who?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the anime's final episode suggest that not only does Kaede still love Rin, she'll still do anything for him (Like waking up early in the morning hoping to make coffee for him) and has this beyond comical notion in her head that it's ok with Asa that she remain fruitlessly in love with him...I wouldn't call that a good ending for her to move on as much as eternal torture that may drive her right back to the same psychotic antics.

By delusional, I meant that at least now Kaede is being honest with the motivation behind her actions. Before, she was convincing herself that she had to do it out of guilt instead of admitting that it was because she loved Rin. Now at least, she knows that the reason why she does what she does is because she loves Rin. Before, there was no chance whatsoever of her stopping her behaviour because she thought she had to do it. Now at least, she knows that she doesn't have to do anything for Rin, but instead, chooses to do it for him.

If she continues to do things for Rin, she will know it is because she chooses to, not because she feels like it is her duty to do so.

[hanxthre]

Originally Posted by Js2756

By delusional, I meant that at least now Kaede is being honest with the motivation behind her actions. Before, she was convincing herself that she had to do it out of guilt instead of admitting that it was because she loved Rin. Now at least, she knows that the reason why she does what she does is because she loves Rin. Before, there was no chance whatsoever of her stopping her behaviour because she thought she had to do it. Now at least, she knows that she doesn't have to do anything for Rin, but instead, chooses to do it for him.

If she continues to do things for Rin, she will know it is because she chooses to, not because she feels like it is her duty to do so.

Anyway you look at it it is extremely unhealthy...The attachment is stil there and the unrealistic one-sided love is also still there. Given her character's psychotic breakdown with seemingly no addressing her mental state (via therapist or counseler) she may still be living in a dreamworld where she thinks she can be with Rin...Unfortunatley the writers of the series really left me with that impression by the non sensical way they ended things. People relapse all the time from all sorts of things...I see nothing to suggest Kaede has successfully moved on. A clean break where she comes to the realization that there's more to life than Rin's universe would suit her character better IMO. What happens 3, 4, 5 months from the end of the anime when she's still secretly pining for him? Stalking him in the early mornings, cooking for him and still not getting that payment in return...Even if it hurts like hell on a hot day realistic boundaries should be set to keep her from coveting him...Asa giving her permission to love him IMO is almost pure cruelty, but maybe that's just how I see it...

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by rooboy666

For my money Lamune was the series that did it best - short, to the point, basically ignored all the side routes.

Indeed, and even with taking out the side routes, the anime was able to still show the viewers the true nature of the story. Has to be one of the top adaptions in my opinion.

Even with what said, i'm one of the guys that didn't find anything that much wrong with the Shuffle anime, and that includes the ending. Sure it wasen't perfect.. and not everyones gonna be happy with how it turned out~

As for Kaede, to this day it still pisses me of that whenever a character in a anime holds a knife.. that character is known for doing a Kaede. Totally stupid.. -_-

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Yeah... they must have taken that poll before the series ended

Nice try! It was after!

Actually I think I always rate shows lower than you do - even if I give more praise to the show.

[Potatochobit]

I see nothing to suggest Kaede has successfully moved on


thats beacause... you are right. she hasnt moved on.

however, as hanx stated she has come to realize her motivations are more than guilt.

indeed, she still clings to Rin, but Asa understands and is O!K!@ with that.

and that is all part of growing up.

i wouldnt say she is stalking him in a devious manner at all. they have always been together. i am sure that Rin knows kaede is watching him. and RIn also knows how possesive and jealous she can be. after all, the method Rin used to save her lfie in the first place was to get her to hate him.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by rooboy666

Nice try! It was after!

Actually I think I always rate shows lower than you do - even if I give more praise to the show.

yeah you're right (falls to a hail of nerf arrows)....

but yes, I do tend to rate shows higher... mostly because if it falls below a "7" I drop it and don't participate in the polls (*cough* soul link, disgaea 2, *cough*). Shuffle! played really well as a light comedy with some dramatic adventure for the first 18 episodes - so for that it deserves 18/24 at least ... after that whether you liked it depended on:
1) whether you thought the Kaede arc was overwrought compared to the rest
2) what you thought about how it ended
3) what you thought about how the Asa arc was handled.
4) whether you were okay that the animation staff outsourced the last 15 minutes to the professionals at the Clutch Cargo team.

For me, it was like they picked the worst combination of those points - that which went together the worst. ... BUT two minor victories at the end ---
1) the scene where Ama encounters our two kings ... I thought that was brilliant (have a Guiness).
2) at least Nerine appears to be "having a life" instead of just standing around. The rest of the gang were just pathetic.

[Haru~]

the combination must be this:
1. they should played out asa arc having her sick and asa confess to Rin , asa don't like to use magic because Rin rejected her that lead to attempted suicide of rin

2. to the point where kaede is started to get frustrated and tried to suicide too and Rin got in time to save her...forgiving her past sins and saying the i love you to her and they live happily ever after.

that plays for kaede's storyline

[DanielSong39]

Maybe Kaede isn't dead in the water just yet?

After all, Rin actually seemed to choose Sia before dropping her later. So why not Asa?

[npal]

Originally Posted by DanielSong39

After all, Rin actually seemed to choose Sia before dropping her later. So why not Asa?

That's probably where they failed. They seemed set on one storyline, and I had Rin-Sia pretty much set when all the unthinkable stuff happened cause probably someone had the bright idea that Rin should get Asa

[Vexx]

Want to bet the story got twisted on the basis of some popularity poll and they reworked the story at the last minute during production? Probably unlikely ... I don't object to the concept of Rin-Asa, just the slipshod broken mechanics that got them there and the trampling of character design that it required. Meh... I just really don't care much -- moral of the story is to avoid Navel-sourced anime.

[andiyar]

Wow, this thread is still alive... it's been a while.

I'll seriously have to watch Lamune, I've read a great deal about it, but I've never managed to find the time. Ah well, chalk another one up onto the must watch list.

I sense there's still a lot of hate for the production team of Shuffle! floating around, at least from parsing this thread. I made the mistake of reading through the AAA & KKK threads once, and my brain tried to melt. No offence intended, fans, just perhaps there's a bit too much over-enthusiasm there at times ^_^

I've said before that I saw Asa coming from the first two or three eps, and I still stand by that. Admittedly, the way it was done was relatively crap. The episodes dealing with Kaede's emotional trauma didn't particularly fit the way they were included, the actions of Asa & Rin towards Kaede during this arc weren't in very much in character; sure, I remember playing devil's advocate a bit in terms of relationships, but there are limits - especially as to the breakdown afterwards, and the total lack of concern both Asa & Rin displayed towards Kaede after the situation was oh-so-neatly resolved.

Shuffle! was fun. Shuffle! was entertaining. But Shuffle! was ultimately nowhere near as deserving of the accolades that it has received and that it did receive during its run. It had a few chances to do some interesting things, but the breakdown towards the end didn't do it any good whatsoever. Navel seem to be obtaining a reputation of developing intriguing games with decent storylines that suffer in anime adaptation. Maybe they're just choosing the wrong production companies - it'd be interesting to see what a studio like BONES or KyoAni could do with source material like Shuffle!, as opposed to the apparently new companies that did the adaptation.

For what it was, I enjoyed Shuffle!, problems and all. Well. Apart from episode 24. The stupidity and bad animation becomes far too much there. If only it were to be fixed. Still. Always other things to watch, yes?


-Andiyar

[Haru~]

well i enjoyed it upto the primula arc and im started to get frustrated when they revealed that asa is the one rin likes...like hello!! A side character becoming a lead suddenly.... Sia would have been fine but when I saw the Kaede arc I was blown away of the drama and then again disappointed at the same tym... Asa became a b*tch after that and until the ending.... she became a traitor....

[Rin-Sama]

im not even going to say HOW stupid that sounds.

[Searcher]

Wow, hanxthre, you made a very good points about kaede still allowed to love rin.
That's is very cruel of asa to do that.
I still have trouble believing about shuffle! storyline, especially after seeing Canvas 2, much better writen.

Spoiler for Canvas 2:

Still don't get kiri-fans that thought that she ever had a chance, it was obvious for me since the begining that she never had a chance.

Still after some time i can have some fun of shuffle! ending, because asa will have to look over rin every second of the day.
So not to give Nerine/Sia/Kaede/Primula/Ama a chance to put the polygamy idea in his head.
What better way to put asa in a mental home , asa would never dare to have a fight with rin (although not very likely with that idiot),
because he might storm out and go see one of the other girls.

About Nerine/Sia not moving on and still being in love with rin.
I don't mind, because their used to the idea of polygamy (was it called polygamy or something else ).
So they will wait patiently (like sharks) untill they can get him and sink their fangs into him.
Besides i don't see kikyou ever giving up on rin

[Rin-Sama]

well there is a problem with that theroy.

Only the gods believe in polygamy. most deamons are monogamist. (mate for life)
and if you haven't noticed Rin is a monogimist. not matter how many girls he has in his herium.

also it seems that Narime has let Rin go, although she still loves hims very much and wants to wait a while before looking for someone else. so Itsuki will have to wait.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Searcher

Wow, hanxthre, you made a very good points about kaede still allowed to love rin.
That's is very cruel of asa to do that.
I still have trouble believing about shuffle! storyline, especially after seeing Canvas 2, much better writen.

Spoiler for Canvas 2:

Still don't get kiri-fans that thought that she ever had a chance, it was obvious for me since the begining that she never had a chance.

I think the only problem many people had with Canvas 2 was the jump from the last scene at the airport to that eyecatch in the end credits.... the dots had simply not been connected in the storyline to imply he had that kind of interest in her, unlike the other choice who he clearly did entertain those kinds of thoughts about.

Per Shuffle!.... the last part of the end episode clearly sets up a continued chase, meaning Asa is going to have to be paranoid about the situation .... every single girl is still clearly after Rin as if they don't acknowledge "the best girl won" (even Nerine still loves Rin though at least she seems to get out more often). It just sets up an afterstory situation that sounds like a mess ... how can Asa remain friends with this predatory group tailing them for the rest of eternity?
Just another point at which the story breaks.... unless the writers *intended* that the world of after-Shuffle is some angsty mess where Asa and Rin's relationship collapse under the pressure from all these girls stalking them. bleh....

[Rin-Sama]

Well Asa's not going to give up Rin and Rin's not going to give up Asa plane and simple as that. the next "season" is going to deal with different view points from the other characters during the 1st season.

And who knows it might focus more on Mayumi and Kahara like "On the Stage" did for the origanl game.