Everyone seems to think that Natsuki rejected Shizuru in Hime... not the truth

[Keroko]

It's better then being left to explain just why its only Duran that is visibly affected, even though Natsuki was far from the only one who experienced changed feelings. Take Akira. She basically went from 'forbidden to fall in love' to 'so madly in love she defied familly orders'

[Cake-kun]

I also think that at first, but i came up to a conclusion that "maybe, Natsuki was confused at first." I proved that Natsuki also loves Shizuru when i saw this lines at the episode 25:

Natsuki: "Shizuru, You were the first one who came to me when i was unable to believe anyone."
Natsuki: "Even then, I'm happy that you loved me."

When i saw (read) that, my rejection thinking was gone.

[Nism]

Hello everybody. I just finished to watch My-Hime, which i discovered very lately, i know.

There a detail i really didn't undestand, if we asume that the screenwritter didn't drink to much sake when he wrote the last dialog between Natsuki and Shizuru in episode 25 before these two greensparkle.

As a french (so i have the official DVD from Beez, but really bad translation and subtitles, so i switched with some english fansub), i've got the translation :
Shizuru...you were the first one who came to me when i was unable to believe anyone.
But, as i thought, i cannot have the feelings you wish i did.
Even then...
... I am happy that you loved me (suki).
I love (suki) you, Shizuru

I read some comments that state that Natsuki's suki is something like "like". But that's not logical : Natsuki uses the same word for her and for Shizuru, and now, she knows perfectly what is behind Shizuru's suki. There's not misunderstanding here. If she wanted to mark the difference, she would have used "aishiteru" for Shizuru and suki for her. (i would add that Mai and Tate use suki too...).
So, why saying the phrase in bold to contradict it after... or why add the last phrase if she wanted to simply state "i accept your feeling but not reciprocate them". Very contradictory.

So i found another translation (it seems that's the one used by official release here), someone posted the official subtitles :

Shizuru...
I was someone who never trusted anybody.
But then I came here, and you were the first to embrace me.
But...
I wasn't able to reciprocate my feelings in the way that you wanted.
Still...
... I am flattered that you fell in love with me.
I love you (too ?), Shizuru.

Here a link i found : http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3...3389198pm9.jpg

So, there is a problem of tense : does Natsuki really uses past tense concerning the "i can't have the feelings..." which enable to make less contradictory the rest of her words ? That's totally different saying "i wasn't able before but now i know i love you" and "i'm not able now even though i love/like you".

I think it's interesting to know (as japanese language is very subbtle and maybe they were a light mistake in the translation not concerning the words but the tenses used in them).

So my question is : is there someone with a good learning of japanese to enlight me (us?) concerning the sentence that Natsuki uses ? Which translation is better : the one in past (which is logical because natsuki's sentences before and after are in past tense) or the first one, which is the most known ?

Thanks in advance

[kitten320]

I don't know japanese, but I know for the fact that ShizNat is an official pair =)
Besides if you saw DVD, there is cut out moment with them in the bath. Why would they be in the bath together?

So I think she did accept her. Maybe not at once, but after some time.

Also the best truth is from her prelude. Where is clearly stated that she has refused Takeda's feelings because there is someone's else feelings that she needs to accept.

[solarknight123]

Originally Posted by kitten320

I don't know japanese, but I know for the fact that ShizNat is an official pair =)
Besides if you saw DVD, there is cut out moment with them in the bath. Why would they be in the bath together?

So I think she did accept her. Maybe not at once, but after some time.

Also the best truth is from her prelude. Where is clearly stated that she has refused Takeda's feelings because there is someone's else feelings that she needs to accept.

Well the bath thing, in japan it's normal for people of the same sex to bath together, what with all the bath houses and such.

Originally Posted by Nism

Hello everybody. I just finished to watch My-Hime, which i discovered very lately, i know.

There a detail i really didn't undestand, if we asume that the screenwritter didn't drink to much sake when he wrote the last dialog between Natsuki and Shizuru in episode 25 before these two greensparkle.

As a french (so i have the official DVD from Beez, but really bad translation and subtitles, so i switched with some english fansub), i've got the translation :
Shizuru...you were the first one who came to me when i was unable to believe anyone.
But, as i thought, i cannot have the feelings you wish i did.
Even then...
... I am happy that you loved me (suki).
I love (suki) you, Shizuru

I read some comments that state that Natsuki's suki is something like "like". But that's not logical : Natsuki uses the same word for her and for Shizuru, and now, she knows perfectly what is behind Shizuru's suki. There's not misunderstanding here. If she wanted to mark the difference, she would have used "aishiteru" for Shizuru and suki for her. (i would add that Mai and Tate use suki too...).
So, why saying the phrase in bold to contradict it after... or why add the last phrase if she wanted to simply state "i accept your feeling but not reciprocate them". Very contradictory.

So i found another translation (it seems that's the one used by official release here), someone posted the official subtitles :

Shizuru...
I was someone who never trusted anybody.
But then I came here, and you were the first to embrace me.
But...
I wasn't able to reciprocate my feelings in the way that you wanted.
Still...
... I am flattered that you fell in love with me.
I love you (too ?), Shizuru.

Here a link i found : http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3...3389198pm9.jpg

So, there is a problem of tense : does Natsuki really uses past tense concerning the "i can't have the feelings..." which enable to make less contradictory the rest of her words ? That's totally different saying "i wasn't able before but now i know i love you" and "i'm not able now even though i love/like you".

I think it's interesting to know (as japanese language is very subbtle and maybe they were a light mistake in the translation not concerning the words but the tenses used in them).

So my question is : is there someone with a good learning of japanese to enlight me (us?) concerning the sentence that Natsuki uses ? Which translation is better : the one in past (which is logical because natsuki's sentences before and after are in past tense) or the first one, which is the most known ?

Thanks in advance

Well the Static Subs i watched of Mai-Hime made it sound like Natsuki wasn't able to return the same feelings at all to Shizuru at all, but i watched the offical dvds released by bandia america and the line Natsuki uses sounds like i could have been meant in the past tense so the chances of her liking Shizuru have increased.

[kitten320]

Still proluge ccleraly states that she had returned her feelings.
And I heard that there is sometjing similar with Shizuru where is stated that during Graduation Natsuki had said something sweet to her before happiness found them both.

So it is clearly that ShizNat had happened. Not at once but still is.

[lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by kitten320

Still proluge ccleraly states that she had returned her feelings.
And I heard that there is sometjing similar with Shizuru where is stated that during Graduation Natsuki had said something sweet to her before happiness found them both.

So it is clearly that ShizNat had happened. Not at once but still is.

That info can be found on page 25 of the 舞-HiME Animation book under Shizuru's profile section. Underneath is an epilogue of sorts that explains what had occurred during the day of her graduation as Natsuki sort of pulled her aside and some something affectionate to her.

The other info that you mentioned comes from the same volume (volume2) of that 舞-HiME Animation book but from the last chapters of "Natsuki no Prelude" and takes place right after the scene with Sakomizu-sensei on that cliff.

Though, we're both being redundant since that info has been mentioned a million times on this board since 2005...lol, I feel like a broken record.

Perhaps I should just add this to my FAQ sheet for Natsuki....hmmm.

--Lone Wolf
一匹狼

[kitten320]

I know, but it looks like some people don't really bother to look through previouse pages

[Keroko]

There's a lot of ambiguity in this pairing, I've discovered. I mean, even the line "Even if she might not hold the feelings Shizuru desired.
Because she loved Shizuru – that was the truth. can be taken both ways. Fans of ShizNat focus in the 'because she loved Shizuru' part, while people who don't really support ShizNat focus in the 'even if she might not hold the feelings Shizuru desired part.'

Oi ve, and here I though Nanoha's pairings were good examples complicated ambiguity, but this goes a looong step further.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Keroko

There's a lot of ambiguity in this pairing, I've discovered. I mean, even the line "Even if she might not hold the feelings Shizuru desired.
Because she loved Shizuru – that was the truth. can be taken both ways. Fans of ShizNat focus in the 'because she loved Shizuru' part, while people who don't really support ShizNat focus in the 'even if she might not hold the feelings Shizuru desired part.'

Oi ve, and here I though Nanoha's pairings were good examples complicated ambiguity, but this goes a looong step further.

Actually right now we were giving examples not from episodes where you can argue but from prolouge where is 100% clear that ShizNat had happened. You can't argue there.

[Keroko]

Could you perhaps link me to a translation of that prologue? I haven't read it myself, so I'd like to read it before going in half blind.

[kitten320]

-sigh- you definetly haven't looked through pages... And there are only 3 you know =/

Anyway here is the link.
http://apollyon-0.livejournal.com/8637.html

[Keroko]

I did, but since that quote I posted came from the prelude and you said "but we're talking about the prologue" I thought they were two different things.

Reading now...

[kitten320]

Misspeled, sorry.

[Keroko]

No problem.

Finished reading the prelude... and, well, I can't say my opinion has changed. While Shizuru was blatantly displaying love, Natsuki's emotions were still... blurry. Ambiguous. When reading chapter 5, the bit about nostalgia actually made me think 'so she sees Shizuru as a mother?'

So, yeah, I don't really think it's 100% clear. The prelude made clear that Natsuki loves Shizuru, there I won't disagree, but whether that love is one between couples, or friends, or even family is something I'm still up for debate.

[solarknight123]

I agree with Keroko, the relation between Shizuru and Natsuki is an ambiguous one. I think it can be interpreted in more than one ways. A lot of people use the word "love" to stake their claim that Natsuki has the same romantic feelings for Shizuru as she does natsuki. But remember, love isn't subjugated to just romance. Their are all types of "love". Friends can have a "love" for one another yet it wouldn't be romantic.

[Nism]

Originally Posted by Keroko

No problem.

Finished reading the prelude... and, well, I can't say my opinion has changed. While Shizuru was blatantly displaying love, Natsuki's emotions were still... blurry. Ambiguous. When reading chapter 5, the bit about nostalgia actually made me think 'so she sees Shizuru as a mother?'

So, yeah, I don't really think it's 100% clear. The prelude made clear that Natsuki loves Shizuru, there I won't disagree, but whether that love is one between couples, or friends, or even family is something I'm still up for debate.

Well, for me, as i understand the ambiguity of the some dialogue (in the anime) [but the problem of translation isn't cleared : which one is the best Past tense or present tense ? I don't have a japanese friend, so i can't answer myself] and of the novel, in the end, Natsuki love Shizuru more than a sister or a friend. We can state that's a romantic love, but without the sexual attraction (yet, maybe in their future as the epilogue state it) that's why she says she loves her (her suki is the same as Shizuru suki, and she knows, in the church, what's behind Shizuru's suki) but insist that she cannot/couldn't (??) have the feelings Shizuru desire (i mean jumps on her and makes crazy love).

Shizuru is in love with Natsuki since many years but this love is also very sexual : she has a physical attraction for her. Natsuki, before the revelation, never let herself has an interest in someone : she isn"t attracted by boys too. Because she ws obsessed by another purpose. I would say that in fact, she is platonically in love with Shizuru but isn't ready yet to express it sexually (but, that's ambigous : she lets Shizuru jump on her in the last episode during the karaoke scene, which is a big step for someone who hates to be touched by anybody).

[lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by Keroko

No problem.

Finished reading the prelude... and, well, I can't say my opinion has changed. While Shizuru was blatantly displaying love, Natsuki's emotions were still... blurry. Ambiguous. When reading chapter 5, the bit about nostalgia actually made me think 'so she sees Shizuru as a mother?'

So, yeah, I don't really think it's 100% clear. The prelude made clear that Natsuki loves Shizuru, there I won't disagree, but whether that love is one between couples, or friends, or even family is something I'm still up for debate.

That's pretty much the whole point. Sunrise wants you to keep guessing which is yet another reason why, this pairing will keep popping up in different universes. In Mai Hime destiny as well as Mai Otome (drama CD) it was pretty much concrete...but then again if you are given a definitive answer then that means that means closure for the pairing according to an international distribution manager from Sunrise. It's another way they get fans to keep purchasing material just to find answers lol. I did manage to purchase the Novel Adaption of Mai Hime the anime which is a two volume set. It covers all 26 episodes and more so if I find something that explains a bit more about that, I'll post it here.

As for Natsuki's preference...there's isn't one. The director's message in Mai Hime was love transcends everything including gender. And while Shizuru's profile section of the Mai Hime animation data book also features a bit of an epilogue they least we find that their relationship went further.
In Mai Otome Natsuki had openly she had admitted to Nao that Her boobs belonged to Shizuru...actually that was a funny scene to listen to. Actually this had occurred when Yukino had coerced Nao into finding out Natsuki and Shizuru's actual relationship. Nao then proceeded into the bath area where Natsuki was just about finishing up. After attempting to "seduce" the Gankuencho she gets Natsuki to finally admit the truth about her relationship with the 3rd column with Nao mentally exclaiming, "I KNEW IT!"

In Mai Hime Destiny, we find out that it was Natsuki's love that had saved Shizuru. Destiny was probably the only incarnation so far that was a little more blatant on their mutual interests in each other.

Not sure about the latest novel entitled "Mai HiME Rebundei Nekohime"...haven't read that one yet though Natsuki is confirmed to be featured and where there is a Natsuki, Shizuru is sure to follow...mostly because the director's favorite characters are Shizuru and Tomoe which probably explains why Tomoe has become a more prominent character in this new novel currently running in the monthly issues of "Charano"

--Lone Wolf
一匹狼

[Nism]

Originally Posted by lone_wolf

It's another way they get fans to keep purchasing material just to find answers lol. I did manage to purchase the Novel Adaption of Mai Hime the anime which is a two volume set. It covers all 26 episodes and more so if I find something that explains a bit more about that, I'll post it here.


--Lone Wolf
一匹狼

Are you talking about the Megami Book volume 1 et 2 ? In fact, there are so many book and comic anthology that it's difficult to find which one is really interesting for a fan

[lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by Nism

Are you talking about the Megami Book volume 1 et 2 ? In fact, there are so many book and comic anthology that it's difficult to find which one is really interesting for a fan

Oh certainly not those books. The ones I'm referring to are actual NOVELS.

All text (or rather mostly text with just a few inserts of images)...but the novels follow all episodes 1-26. So basically the Mai Hime anime TV series in book form (A4 size)　The titles of those novels are as follows:

Mai Hime A-side

Mai Hime B-side

You can also find it here just below the 2nd volume of 舞-HiME Destiny

Those anthologies that you have mentioned are composed of well known dounjinshi circles so those stories are NOT legit. And I have those as well.

If you want some further info on the original Mai Hime series, definitely purchase all the data books which include 2 volumes as well as this novel which I just ordered a few days ago:


Recommended material (These two data books contain info on all episodes along with profiles of each of the characters, some epilogues, "Natsuki no Prelude" and a lot of interviews from the cast and crew of Mai Hime.


『舞-HiME　アニメブック　１学期』 (Mai Hime Animation Book 1)『舞-HiME　アニメブック　2学期』 (Mai Hime Animation Book 2)

Sadly I bought two of each of the printed materials...one to collect and one to utilize as reference material.

--Lone Wolf
一匹狼