Romance in Code Geass (Take 3)

[Var]

Originally Posted by Asleep

I think that ended in episode 15 when she chose to live rather then die and return to Mao. In season 1 she still had her death wish. I believe Lelouch has made her want to live again.

So Kallen's mother means nothing to her? They had a whole episode on it, she promised she would fight for her and come back to her alive. So it's not the same as C.C.'s so called "promise" to Mao.

Which is why I brought up Mao, he would never have killed her, but he very well could have granted her original wish if she weren't blind. If anything, Episode 15 brought the damn thing back up again, because she now can die.

I never said it meant nothing to Kallen, or that her mother has somehow become less important. But what Kallen is doing now isn't solely for her mother or for her country, she has other reasons... or is it reason? I mean, if we're going to take what Kallen said to her mother as some great symbol, then why the hell are we ignoring that she's said the exact same thing to Lelouch... on several occasions? What? Is this some sort of garage sale where we can pick and chose what to take hom?

Not sure, also, how C.C.'s promise is some less than Kallen's or somehow worthy of " ". Where do we draw the line? Mayhaps I'm batshit bonkers, but they both seemed like promises to me. Not "promises".

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Var

Which is why I brought up Mao, he would never have killed her, but he very well could have granted her original wish if she weren't blind. If anything, Episode 15 brought the damn thing back up again, because she now can die.

Mao was too unstable after his Geass went out of control though.

[Eliarine]

Are we talking about her telling him she'd join him in death or something? Because someone will have to tell me how that prevents her from having a romantic relationship with anyone.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Mao was too unstable after his Geass went out of control though.

Doesn't matter when he was likely the only human who ever loved her, but, somehow, she did not notice that. Remember, she ditched him because he couldn't/wouldn't kill her.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Are we talking about her telling him she'd join him in death or something? Because someone will have to tell me how that prevents her from having a romantic relationship with anyone.

My point was not that, but how it is somehow different from Kallen's promise to her mother. They both promised people they cared for something that they wanted to hear, nothing more.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Var

Doesn't matter when he was likely the only human who ever loved her, but, somehow, she did not notice that. Remember, she ditched him because he couldn't/wouldn't kill her.

Mao didn't love C.C, he was obsessed with her. I'd put his "love" in the same category as Nina's "love" for Euphie. I don't think this is the kind of love C.C is wishing for.

Originally Posted by Var

My point was not that, but how it is somehow different from Kallen's promise to her mother. They both promised people they cared for something that they wanted to hear, nothing more.

I see Kallen's promise to her mother as much more than just "something that they wanted to hear". And I'm sort of surprised that you could see in differently as a Kallen fan

[Asleep]

Originally Posted by Var

Which is why I brought up Mao, he would never have killed her, but he very well could have granted her original wish if she weren't blind. If anything, Episode 15 brought the damn thing back up again, because she now can die.

I never said it meant nothing to Kallen, or that her mother has somehow become less important. But what Kallen is doing now isn't solely for her mother or for her country, she has other reasons... or is it reason? I mean, if we're going to take what Kallen said to her mother as some great symbol, then why the hell are we ignoring that she's said the exact same thing to Lelouch... on several occasions? What? Is this some sort of garage sale where we can pick and chose what to take hom?

Not sure, also, how C.C.'s promise is some less than Kallen's or somehow worthy of " ". Where do we draw the line? Mayhaps I'm batshit bonkers, but they both seemed like promises to me. Not "promises".

Kallen's always seemed like a promise to me. While C.C. seemed to be talking out of guilt of what happened to Mao, and considering she wanted to die. She was waiting to die, it was her sole goal. That is why she made the contract with Lelouch. After last episode, she can die (assuming she has become mortal) but she doesn't want to die. So her telling Mao to wait for her becomes meaningless now. She chose life over death.

Whereas Kallen undoubtedly would still want to return to her mother. These are two completely different promises, if you call C.C.'s words a promise.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Mao didn't love C.C, he was obsessed with her. I'd put his "love" in the same category as Nina's "love" for Euphie. I don't think this is the kind of love C.C is wishing for.
I see Kallen's promise to her mother as much more than just "something that they wanted to hear". And I'm sort of surprised that you could see in differently as a Kallen fan

She regretted treating her badly, mother who in return loved her unconditionally. I also don't understand how you can compare those two.

[Ketro]

I actually want LelouchxAnya, I just really want that pairing (It probably wont happen unless something about Anya's past get revealed D: )

[Var]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Mao didn't love C.C, he was obsessed with her. I'd put his "love" in the same category as Nina's "love" for Euphie. I don't think this is the kind of love C.C is wishing for.

I see it differently, obsession comes from love. He loved her, but when she abandoned him because he would not/could not fulfill her contract, he became obsessed with her. He became warped by her actions, not his own.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I see Kallen's promise to her mother as much more than just "something that they wanted to hear". And I'm sort of surprised that you could see in differently as a Kallen fan

Again, I see no difference because both cared for the person they promised something too. I do not see how one is more of a promise than the other. Else, I'm really going to start calling C.C. a mega bitch for just denying Mao everything in life.

Both promises are something that the other side wanted to be told, while at the same time it is something that the sayer themselves wanted. C.C. wanted to die, and she promised Mao that she'd be with him. Kallen wanted to free Japan, and promised her mother that she'd return to her and that everything could go back to how it was.

[Asleep]

Originally Posted by Var

I see it differently, obsession comes from love. He loved her, but when she abandoned him because he would not/could not fulfill her contract, he became obsessed with her. He became warped by her actions, not his own.

Love would look at the other person's interests too. She left him. So if he loved her he should have moved on and hoped for her happiness. Obsession is a need to possess. It can never come from true love.

Originally Posted by Var

Again, I see no difference because both cared for the person they promised something too. I do not see how one is more of a promise than the other. Else, I'm really going to start calling C.C. a mega bitch for just denying Mao everything in life.

Both promises are something that the other side wanted to be told, while at the same time it is something that the sayer themselves wanted. C.C. wanted to die, and she promised Mao that she'd be with him. Kallen wanted to free Japan, and promised her mother that she'd return to her and that everything could go back to how it was.

But C.C. doesn't want to die any more and Kallen still wants to free Japan. So her returning seems more valid.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Var

I see it differently, obsession comes from love. He loved her, but when she abandoned him because he would not/could not fulfill her contract, he became obsessed with her. He became warped by her actions, not his own.

Ah but see, that's your opinion here, not fact. I see it differently too and believe Mao's love for C.C was always on the obsessive side, or at least before she "abandoned" him already. She was the only one there for him after she gave him the Geass and his "love" sprung from that. I really don't think this is the sort of "true love" C.C is waiting for.

Originally Posted by Var

Again, I see no difference because both cared for the person they promised something too. I do not see how one is more of a promise than the other. Else, I'm really going to start calling C.C. a mega bitch for just denying Mao everything in life.

Both promises are something that the other side wanted to be told, while at the same time it is something that the sayer themselves wanted. C.C. wanted to die, and she promised Mao that she'd be with him. Kallen wanted to free Japan, and promised her mother that she'd return to her and that everything could go back to how it was.

I never said one was less of a promise than the other, nor that C.C will never join Mao in death. I just don't see how that prevents her from developping a romantic relationship with someone before that.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Asleep

Love would look at the other person's interests too. She left him. So if he loved her he should have moved on and hoped for her happiness. Obsession is a need to possess. It can never come from true love.

Um... what? You just painted C.C. as the biggest bitch evvaarrrr. She left someone who loved her because he wouldn't kill her but was fulfilling her original wish. This baffles me. She was getting her wish from Mao, even if for only a short time, and when she abandons him... you put all the weight on him to move on? The poor kid was ditched by his mother and you expect him to act rationally? Wha?!

Originally Posted by Eliarine

But C.C. doesn't want to die any more and Kallen still wants to free Japan. So her returning seems more valid.

Kallen also wants to be with Lelouch now, so... What's your point exactly? As I see it neither is more valid by some obscure measure of validity, both have changed since they gave their promises. Simple, easy, and no need to somehow make one person be 'more likely to return' than the other.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Ah but see, that's your opinion here, not fact. I see it differently too and believe Mao's love for C.C was always on the obsessive side, or at least before she "abandoned" him already. She was the only one there for him after she gave him the Geass and his "love" sprung from that. I really don't think this is the sort of "true love" C.C is waiting for.

Well, I never said that there was only one opinion. If anything, everyone who deems him as just some raving loon seems to be under that impression. I believe that his love was genuine when he was a child, like that of a son to his mother. I don't see how else to interpret the scene where he and C.C. are hugging while sleeping in each other's arms.

And, how exactly is the love between Mao and C.C. some how different from the supposed 'love' between her and Lelouch? She gave both of them Geass, and isolated both from others. Seems like an odd double standard to me. I'm sure you could say that Mao's was a dependancy, but that seems to fall short when C.C. took him away from people.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I never said one was less of a promise than the other, nor that C.C will never join Mao in death. I just don't see how that prevents her from developping a romantic relationship with someone before that.

Well, see, my original post wasn't targeting you, it was targeting someone else who seems to have a different impression than you about what a promise is. So... we agree? (Sorry for the delay, had to go buy some milk and honey... yes... milk and honey!)

[Change of Pace]

I forgo any Lulu-related shippings after Shirley's death! Plus, I bet the moment any of them do get close to Lelouch, they'll be killed off.

... but, as a general question, does anyone think that mind!raped C.C. has a better chance with Lelouch?

[JMvS]

My bet (dream) on everybody being either dead or single at the end safe for Rollo with Nana-chan

[Narona]

Originally Posted by JMvS

My bet (dream) on everybody being either dead or single at the end safe for Rollo with Nana-chan

Rollo

Spoiler for Speculation:

Will die if the korean blog speculation is true. So sad

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

... but, as a general question, does anyone think that mind!raped C.C. has a better chance with Lelouch?

*Raises her hand* but I think he already likes her, and even if she lost her memory doesn't see her as a different person.

Wishful thinking, or not. We will know it soon.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Var

Kallen also wants to be with Lelouch now, so... What's your point exactly? As I see it neither is more valid by some obscure measure of validity, both have changed since they gave their promises. Simple, easy, and no need to somehow make one person be 'more likely to return' than the other.

That post you quoted isn't mine

Originally Posted by Var

Well, I never said that there was only one opinion. If anything, everyone who deems him as just some raving loon seems to be under that impression. I believe that his love was genuine when he was a child, like that of a son to his mother. I don't see how else to interpret the scene where he and C.C. are hugging while sleeping in each other's arms.

I do think his love was genuine at some point, I just believe that due to his Geass and his need to focus on C.C all the time it turned nasty and the guy simply went crazy. There was not much C.C could do for him after this in my opinion; and it simply wasn't love anymore.

Originally Posted by Var

And, how exactly is the love between Mao and C.C. some how different from the supposed 'love' between her and Lelouch? She gave both of them Geass, and isolated both from others. Seems like an odd double standard to me. I'm sure you could say that Mao's was a dependancy, but that seems to fall short when C.C. took him away from people.

The difference is in the way they both reacted to the Geass and the feelings they apparently developped for C.C. after she gave it to them. Mao got his Geass when he was only a child, and it completely alienated him from other people. It was too much for him and he eventually went crazy, obsessing over C.C who was his only anchor to reality; mother, sister and lover(?) all at once. The way I see it, the Geass turned the innocent love Mao felt for C.C into a crazy obsession.

Lelouch was already a teen when he met C.C and got his Geass, and he first saw her as an accomplice, nothing more. The feelings he apparently developped towards her (whether you see it as friendship, love, need, or anything else) did not spring from his life completely revolving around her nor a need to love her like Mao. It's something he apparently developped along the way, and only "discovered" last episode when she was taken from him.

Maybe they're not that different. But while Geass isolated both, Mao went mad, and Lelouch is not quite there yet, nor do we know for sure what his feelings towards C.C are for the moment. He can still be "saved" and I guess that like for many things, we'll just have to wait and see.

Does that make sense? It does from my P.O.V but I'm tired and off to bed so I might not be the best judge here

Originally Posted by Var

Well, see, my original post wasn't targeting you, it was targeting someone else who seems to have a different impression than you about what a promise is. So... we agree? (Sorry for the delay, had to go buy some milk and honey... yes... milk and honey!)

Okay, I'll agree to agree, for once. :P

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by Narona

Rollo

Spoiler for Speculation:

Will die if the korean blog speculation is true. So sad

I know that's why it's nothing more than a pleasant dream.

Regarding Lelouch, I still think that his satisfactory ending can be a Moses one: dying after successufully leading his people (Nana-chan) to the Promised Land (a gentler world), but not being able to enjoy it himself and dying.

So the "dead or single for everybody safe for..."

[Var]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

That post you quoted isn't mine

My bad, I tend to not pay attention when I C&P quote tags.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I do think his love was genuine at some point, I just believe that due to his Geass and his need to focus on C.C all the time it turned nasty and the guy simply went crazy. There was not much C.C could do for him after this in my opinion; and it simply wasn't love anymore.

Which is why I have an odd/bad feeling mixed in here somewhere. We agree that his love was genuine at some point in time, real love for her. She had her wish fulfilled a long time ago. The only thing Mao wouldn't do was kill her, and that is where I see a double standard.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

The difference is in the way they both reacted to the Geass and the feelings they apparently developped for C.C. after she gave it to them. Mao got his Geass when he was only a child, and it completely alienated him from other people. It was too much for him and he eventually went crazy, obsessing over C.C who was his only anchor to reality; mother, sister and lover(?) all at once. The way I see it, the Geass turned the innocent love Mao felt for C.C into a crazy obsession.

Lelouch was already a teen when he met C.C and got his Geass, and he first saw her as an accomplice, nothing more. The feelings he apparently developped towards her (whether you see it as friendship, love, need, or anything else) did not spring from his life completely revolving around her nor a need to love her like Mao. It's something he apparently developped along the way, and only "discovered" last episode when she was taken from him.

Maybe they're not that different. But while Geass isolated both, Mao went mad, and Lelouch is not quite there yet, nor do we know for sure what his feelings towards C.C are for the moment. He can still be "saved" and I guess that like for many things, we'll just have to wait and see.

Does that make sense? It does from my P.O.V but I'm tired and off to bed so I might not be the best judge here

My double standard doesn't arise in how they dealt with it, but in that she recieved true love from Mao but was to thick to realize it. And here comes Lelouch to just sunny up her day. It's nonsense from where I'm sitting, and that's not even on a shipper level, just a 'What the fuck happened to Mao?' sort of thought. He loved her, had twin level geass, and was all in all a prime candidate to fulfill both of her wishes. The only difference being that, unlike Lelouch with his death-alluding lines to C.C., Mao never had any intention of killing the one thing he had in the world.

I believe that they are not all that different at all, just that one was forsaken while the other was not. Mao does not go batship bonkers until C.C. ditches him on the side of the road on the New Jersey turnpike. Mao loved her at some point and its arguable that he still loved her, if not for the simple face of happiness he made when he met her right before dying. Fulfilling the supposed true wish, where as Lelouch is so far removed from the word 'love' and the very idea of it, that we have no clue what the hell he's even thinking. Hell, he doesn't even know. It just feels like they either threw Mao out the window with 15's revelations, or they brought him back in. Because, if anything, he was the first person to have shown her true love.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Okay, I'll agree to agree, for once. :P

Oh... good.

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

... but, as a general question, does anyone think that mind!raped C.C. has a better chance with Lelouch?

No, in fact, if she stays as a ten year old mentally retarded sixteen year old, she's likely to get more familial developments with Lelouch than anything. Will she be loved? Most likely, but unless Lelouch does a 180 on us, he's not going to be hitting on a ten year old, and I don't expect to see a ten year old gunning for romance.

As it stands, they opened the door for C.C. then shut it in our faces right as we were about to cross the threshold.

[Kovensky]

Originally Posted by Var

As it stands, they opened the door for C.C. then shut it in our faces right as we were about to cross the threshold.

Exactly. Am I agreeing with everyone today?

[Narona]

Originally Posted by JMvS

I know that's why it's nothing more than a pleasant dream.

Regarding Lelouch, I still think that his satisfactory ending can be a Moses one: dying after successufully leading his people (Nana-chan) to the Promised Land (a gentler world), but not being able to enjoy it himself and dying.

So the "dead or single for everybody safe for..."

Perhaps but I will see this as a cheap way to avoid a LI conclusion. .

Originally Posted by Kovensky

Exactly. Am I agreeing with everyone today?

You must be ill <_<

[Eliarine]

Quickie answer and I'm really off to sleep.

Originally Posted by Var

My double standard doesn't arise in how they dealt with it, but in that she recieved true love from Mao but was to thick to realize it. And here comes Lelouch to just sunny up her day. It's nonsense from where I'm sitting, and that's not even on a shipper level, just a 'What the fuck happened to Mao?' sort of thought. He loved her, had twin level geass, and was all in all a prime candidate to fulfill both of her wishes. The only difference being that, unlike Lelouch with his death-alluding lines to C.C., Mao never had any intention of killing the one thing he had in the world.

I believe that they are not all that different at all, just that one was forsaken while the other was not. Mao does not go batship bonkers until C.C. ditches him on the side of the road on the New Jersey turnpike. Mao loved her at some point and its arguable that he still loved her, if not for the simple face of happiness he made when he met her right before dying. Fulfilling the supposed true wish, where as Lelouch is so far removed from the word 'love' and the very idea of it, that we have no clue what the hell he's even thinking. Hell, he doesn't even know. It just feels like they either threw Mao out the window with 15's revelations, or they brought him back in. Because, if anything, he was the first person to have shown her true love.

When I say that Mao's love was genuine at one point I really don't think it's the kind of love C.C was looking for. She had to force it, for starters: she needed to stay beside him after she gave him the Geass. Then, Mao "loved" her because she was the only one in his world, and I think she wanted to be loved for what/who she was, not what she did. Like I said, I believe she was everything to him, from mother to imaginary girlfriend, and I really don't think this is what she's looking for. Also, was it stated he went crazy after she "left" him? Because I definitely don't remember that. Finally, I think Lelouch is like her second chance, even though he does not seem to know what love is yet. That doesn't mean he can't learn.

Have a nice day/night/afternoon~~! xD