(L) Seirei no Moribito (Guardian of the Sacred Spirit)

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Lol, it's quite interesting to see such different reactions to what seems like a very minor plot point.

That's one thing that helps make this show for me; the presentation is so nuanced in places that it lends itself to differing, and often equally compelling, interpretations. I actually don't think this is such a minor point though. How Chagum comes to relate to the people around him seems quite central to the story, at least at the moment. I'm impressed with how far you all have taken this discussion -- into areas like what the crowds' reaction may tell us about popular perceptions of the Imperial family and how deferential the ordinary citizens of Yogo may be. I credit a lot of this to the novel's author, Uehashi Shihoko. I believe someone here mentioned she's an academic social anthropologist? If so, you can clearly see those influences in these scenes with Chagum.

Can any native Japanese speakers talk a bit about Chagum's grammar and vocabulary? Does he use more formal, or more archaic, structures than the rest of the characters? As kujoe observes, his seiyuu's style of speech and the English translations suggest this to be true. Would the people around him notice that he has a distinctively "upper-class" speech pattern?

We haven't talked much about the seiyuu lately. The performances all seem first-rate to me; even the more clichéd characters like Saya have interesting voices for their roles.

[saravis]

Originally Posted by kujoe

That's true, but I was referring to the reaction of the crowd and not that which sealed the fate of his so-called business. The man could have easily dared Tohya to prove it to everybody, but he felt compelled to dare Chagum instead. Ironically, when Chagum seems to have gotten everybody's attention because he calls them fools.

And I did indeed address that in the first part of my post, but perhaps I didn't address it in enough detail. Reactions: 1. Tohya stares nervously, feeling that Chagum is overstepping his bounds and afraid that something violent might happen. 2. The big guy, demands to know who the brat is clearly insulted by Chagum's words. 3. The old lady chimes in trying to shut him out by saying that he is nothing more than a know it all. 4. Young lady also tries to shut him out by claiming that he is only upset because his brother had lost. 5. Spectator than tries to shove him away, by telling him to go back to his mother before she chews his air off, which he than follows with: or else he would, much to the laughter of the crowd. How are these not appropriate reactions.

[kujoe]

I do think they're proper reactions really. Chagum isn't talking to a bunch of grumpy martial artists in a teahouse for one thing. The crowd seems to be just a normal bunch of people.

Specifically, the reaction I was referring to occurs even before that—that moment right after he utters the first line to the crowd. The crowd is still silent at that point and watches him approach, and Chagum continues to explain that the game is rigged. It's only after that moment does the crowd try to dismiss him.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I think she has already pointed that out to Chagum quite a few times? By making Tohya take Chagum as an apprentice "runner", Balsa was attempting (again) to teach Chagum how to behave and talk like a commoner. Previous attempts include shoving him out of their house to play with local farm children, for example. But Chagum's pretty well brought up, so those imperial habits won't die so easily I guess.

I should've added that a while ago. What I meant was, will Balsa address this matter more? Chagum's speech still hasn't changed that much, and I also realize this may take some time. I'm just a bit surprised that no one outside of Balsa's group has said anything about it so far. Not even those farm kids.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Does he use more formal, or more archaic, structures than the rest of the characters? As kujoe observes, his seiyuu's style of speech and the English translations suggest this to be true. Would the people around him notice that he has a distinctively "upper-class" speech pattern?

Yes, he does sound formal and archaic. Well, I'm not sure if that's the proper description to be exact, but it's quite different from the everyday manner of speaking that the rest of the common folk use. Chagum's mother also speaks in the same way if I'm not mistaken.

[saravis]

I wouldn't think that his manner of speech would really be a problem for him. People wouldn't make the connection between his form of speech and the possibility of him being royalty. People don't go around thinking hey is this guy a prince. Besides everyone thinks that the prince is dead, so they wouldn't think to be actively looking for him. To those around him he's just a confident/arrogant brat and what would it matter even if those around him do come up with the possibility of him being a prince it's not like commoners have a line into the imperial castle. Granted those of royalty or those who are among royalty might pick up on it, but I would think his manner of speech would be the least of his concerns in such a situation, first being his appearance (cutting off one's hair doesn't make you look that different) and second his voice itself.

[Joojoobees]

Fools
I do think that calling people commoners (even more than fools) is likely to rouse suspicions of someone who is pretending to be an "errand runner", but I doubt there is any chance that someone who doesn't work at the court would recognize Chagum, no matter what he said. Most people seem to look straight at the ground when a royal is anywhere nearby.

Pacing
I've said before that there wasn't a whole lot that Balsa could do with Chagum, beyond lying low, until Toragai returns with information from the knot. The past few episodes seem perfect to me as a result. I didn't think episode 10 was filler at all. It even feels like a plot advancing episode to me, as it shows Chagum's awakening. If Balsa is going to do anything with Chagum, other than hang out at the mill, he would need to become more active than the passive little child he started out as in episode 1. Hell, he was unconscious for most of episodes 1 and 2! Gradually we have seen a very plausible growth of Chagum from plucky little kid who went to get Tanda, to a completely self-assured leader of men in episode 10. This (to me) seems like it is going somewhere.

Narrative styles
I didn't really get a chance to weigh in on the excellent discussion about narrative styles from a couple of days ago, but I have to say that I enjoyed reading it. It was mentioned in there that there are at least 3 types of stories: Character, Plot, and Milieu. I'll add a 4th here: Idea. Orson Scott Card named these four story types MICE, for Milieu, Idea, Character, Event in his book Characters & Viewpoint, which is a very rewarding read. Idea stories basically have a question as their basis. Resolution of the story involves answering the question. Mysteries are the quintessential Idea-based story.

It was said recently that Chagum, not Balsa is the focus in SnM for Character development. I think this is true, and, up to now, at least, Balsa has been the focus for an Idea-based sub-plot. We have gradually (almost every episode) been treated to a little reveal of who Balsa is, and what lies in her past. In the first episode we are led to think that Balsa killed the 8 people herself. Slowly the enigma of how she "killed" them has been resolved.

I'm not saying this is an Idea story, just that the Balsa sub-plot was an Idea type. The main story line clearly is about saving Chagum / the Egg, and so I would guess that we will see some more action (Event) in upcoming episodes. I think a couple of things about Balsa's story line have modified the basic story about protecting the Egg. For example, the Swordsmith's story. Can she really use the blade he crafted for her to free herself from her fate?

[MrProphet]

Jorge Luis Borges' description of the 4 basic stories (read his brilliant essay "The Four Cycles") is and always will be the definitive version.

- Siege (heroes defend and attack a fortress: The Iliad)

- Return (hero returns home: The Odyssey)

- Quest (hero seeks an object of desire: Jason and the Fleece, Parcifal and the Grail, Ahab and his white whale)

- Divine suicide (hero sacrifices himself: Odin hanging on a tree, crucifixion of Christ).

Want to bet it's the last one and the gallant prince is the recipient of that dubious honor? 8)

[kujoe]

I don't think Chagum's manner of speaking will automatically uncover his true identity. I was simply thinking along the lines of, say, some little farm girl asking him where he learned to speak like that....or something. Balsa wants to fix that discrepancy after all.

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Want to bet it's the last one and the gallant prince is the recipient of that dubious honor? 8)

But will we find out eventually if it heads down that path tragically? I mean, does the series intend to depict the whole story or just part of it?

[Joojoobees]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

- Siege (heroes defend and attack a fortress: The Iliad)
- Return (hero returns home: The Odyssey)
- Quest (hero seeks an object of desire: Jason and the Fleece, Parcifal and the Grail, Ahab and his white whale)
- Divine suicide (hero sacrifices himself: Odin hanging on a tree, crucifixion of Christ).

Want to bet it's the last one and the gallant prince is the recipient of that dubious honor? 8)

Well, if those are my choices, I'll take (2) "Return".

[Saffire]

Before I begin:

Narrative styles
I didn't really get a chance to weigh in on the excellent discussion about narrative styles from a couple of days ago, but I have to say that I enjoyed reading it. It was mentioned in there that there are at least 3 types of stories: Character, Plot, and Milieu. I'll add a 4th here: Idea. Orson Scott Card named these four story types MICE, for Milieu, Idea, Character, Event in his book Characters & Viewpoint, which is a very rewarding read. Idea stories basically have a question as their basis. Resolution of the story involves answering the question. Mysteries are the quintessential Idea-based story.

Yes! Character's and Viewpoint. That is an EXCELLENT writer's book. That's where I learned about the different viewpoints, but it's been awhile since I've read it. Excellent, excellent book.

With that aside:

Well, if those are my choices, I'll take (2) "Return".

The question I'd pose to that is how? How could Chagum properly return to his kingdom when he's officially dead in the eyes of the kingdom? I can imagine there being quite a scandal if it got out that Chagum was alive. And we've all seen how desperate the people are at trying to keep scandal's (Chagum's egg in connection of the drought) hidden and taken care of from the people. With that thought in mind, though returning home may be the option a lot of us are thinking about (it seems like the most obvious goal) I'm wondering if Chagum can ever return to the noble life he once did. And if so, how?

[saravis]

Perhaps something will be revealed with the egg that there is something to it that will be needed to save the Empire. It's possible that this creature will actually save the land from the drought and not cause it, after all it's supposed to be a water spirit. This could lead Chagum back to a royal position which will then lead him to becoming Emperor. He's definitely shown traits of being one. I know that's stretching it, but right now everything is up in the air.

[Asai]

Originally Posted by monir

Agreed! I think for most of us, there is a huge difference in regards to the enjoyment factor when watching this show with subs, and when watching it RAW. The tension created by episode 10 was something I've experience when watching shows like Akagi, or Hikaru no Go.

I just watched episode 10, and I agree entirely. It was actually a really exciting episode. Which is odd for something that had no action at all. =p (But then, I loved HnG, too.)

This series really is good. I'm enjoying it immensely so far, even if it lacks real comedy or action or romance that I usually go for, the story itself is just... involving. Being able to be swept away by it is most excellent.

[Jazzrat]

The last few episodes have been pretty slow in terms of pacing (i'm up to episode 10) which is quite different from most animes.

The anime part of me felt disappointed at the speed of the plots but the novel reader part of me enjoys the details that help conjures the fantasy world. I just hope they can wrap up the story arc properly without rushing it.

[gaguri]

Originally Posted by tinyredleaf

I'm amused by Tanda's own analogy, about how it's similar to the sensation of falling in your dreams. I hate those dreams! I used to have them quite often when I was a small boy, and even occasionally when I was a teenager. Curiously, I don't have such dreams very often now.

I loved that part too. That scene was mildly reminiscent of Mushishi, simply because they both identified a natural phenomenon (such as describing strange and odd, but definitely tangible state of our dreaming) that we experience in real life, and came to different interpretations through the different fictitious nature of their world. I find these interesting because it provides an idea or a question that we can relate to, while inviting us to the world of fiction with an answer that is both plausible (within the limits allowed by their imaginative world) and fascinating.

[Karnot]

Jorge Luis Borges' description of the 4 basic stories (read his brilliant essay "The Four Cycles") is and always will be the definitive version.

I wouldnt think so. Even in Ancient Greek theatre there were... i dont remember the exact number, around 30 basic stories.
I guess we have had severely degraded since that time, to have only 4 left, according to Borges.

[leongsh]

Originally Posted by Karnot

I wouldnt think so. Even in Ancient Greek theatre there were... i dont remember the exact number, around 30 basic stories.
I guess we have had severely degraded since that time, to have only 4 left, according to Borges.

In time, everything will degrade to only one basic story - the all singing, all dancing, action-packed, melodrama-stuffed, everything-including-the-kitchen-sink Bollywood movie story

[monir]

Originally Posted by Karnot

I wouldnt think so. Even in Ancient Greek theatre there were... i dont remember the exact number, around 30 basic stories.
I guess we have had severely degraded since that time, to have only 4 left, according to Borges.

If we think about it a little bit, it seems Borges got the fundamental format for 99% of the stories told in human history's. Yes, some of those stories may beat around the bush a bit, but it all seem to come around to fit the mold Borges highlights. Funny observation by you nontheless!

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by leongsh

In time, everything will degrade to only one basic story - the all singing, all dancing, action-packed, melodrama-stuffed, everything-including-the-kitchen-sink Bollywood movie story

Pessimist much?

Originally Posted by monir

If we think about it a little bit, it seems Borges got the fundamental format for 99% of the stories told in human history's. Yes, some of those stories may beat around the bush a bit, but it all seem to come around to fit the mold Borges highlights. Funny observation by you nontheless!

The reason Borges can categorize into only four molds is because he makes them so basic and general. As people have said from time immemorial, stories are always being recycled. But it's the characters, and how well you flesh them out and colour them in that makes an old story interesting again. That's why I think the impact of strong, sympathetic characters can never be underestimated in story-telling. It's hard to write a truly innovative plotline, and even then it may not impact the audience all that much... it's somewhat easier to create likeable, realistic and well fleshed out characters that the audience can care about, and having them is the first step to having a story that the audience can truly connect to, even if the basic plotline is somewhat familiar.

[Westlo]

Just want to chime in that watching 1-11 has been an absolute pleasure, SnM is the definate standout of the last anime season imo.

[Saffire]

Originally Posted by monir

I was snickering at first upon hearing Tanda's diagnostic of why Saya was out of it. Soul-escaping from the body!!? Tanda, you quack. This is something what Dr. Nick from The Simpson would say. Then, it hit me as he continued to press on with his diagnostic and how seriously he was being taken by the audience around him. This isn't our world. I mean, the main focus of the story revolves around a boy who has an egg within him that will hatch eventually, and in turn, will cause a severe drought his country has ever seen. Then why was it that I couldn't accept Tanda's prognosis instantly? I think that's because of the captured visual presentation of the world is so bloody beautiful. It's easy to forget that the show is about fantasy where the nature mixes with the supernatural seamlessly no matter how realistic the visual representation of the natural may seem.

Unlike you, I accepted Tanda's prognosis from the start. Probably because it reminded me of a culture I studied (as well as the show being in the Fantasy genre) in college just a few months past. In the book I read (called The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down ) is about the Hmong (a people situated in Laos) whose daughter suffered from epilepsy. These people are very...how should I put this... basic? In their culture, the spirit of a person is very important, and in the book, they believed their daughter's epilepsy was a malady caused by something else. Namely, a Dab (think demon) had captured Lia's spirit when it fled out of the body due to fright. Their plausible cure for this disease was to contact a Shaman and have him do a soul calling-which basically would be his soul leaving his body/making amends with the gods to bring back Lia's soul to her body. So, i found the whole thing quite interesting. That, and I'm a Fantasy nut. But ah well.

In fact, in the beginning of Seirei (like, the first five minutes in episode 1) I was reminded very much of Nepal. The rocky outcroppings and the flags strewn about the mountain reminded me so much of it. Actually, it looked exactly like the Nepali roads with the flags (called Prayer flags) strewn about the mountain. My neighbors had gone there a few years back, and I'm friends with a Nepali girl. So this world that Seirei is portraying reminds me vaguely of those cultures.

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

The reason Borges can categorize into only four molds is because he makes them so basic and general.

I agree that they are very basic and general. While I disagree that it sums up 99% of all stories, I do agree that it sums up a lot of the most common works of fiction we see today in some way or another. Considering how much stories change and are constantly be reworked/recycled, I doubt we'd be able to pin a label on a great lot of them...at least, not that easily.

[Shinndou]

God, I lost track of the discussion for like, a loooong time. So I'll just add that up to now I'm really satisfied with this show, and I don't mind the slow pace that it seems to have adopted in the latest episodes. This show, Gurren Lagann, and Dennou Coil are probably my favorite ones of this season, so far.

Oh and, regarding Broges' theories, I guess that out of those four categories I'd hope to see number two (Return) to be the one where Seirei no Moribito falls in. Number four would be interesting but so far I can't see how they'd pull that off. We're still far from the end and hopefully I suppose that Chagum's will keep evolving/growing in both personality and attitude.