Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[justavisitor]

Well, Sheryl even jumps off the building to get her panties (or something close to that)
so if Ranka got her way by crying, Sheryl got her way by doing even crazier stuff

No intention to start up another war in here, but if you link Ranka's "failure" all the way back to episode 5, then well I am just reminding you that Sheryl almost lost her life by doing the dumbest thing in the whole series...

In my personal opinion, both Ranka's action in episode 5 and Sheryl catching the panties (or something close to that) were more like a comedy/filler of the show

[raile]

^Sheryl endangered her own life. Ranka endangered the lives of a fleet. There's a huge difference.

[KaoruLia]

So we're down to comparing who's more immature in Macross F?

I think this all boils down to personal belief and preferences more than anything. It's fiction. I agree with justavisitor, the Ranka scene in episode 5 and Sheryl scene in episode 8 are just comedy fillers, exaggerating the mood of the scene.

For example, some people might see Ranka's behaviour in 21 as annoying, but some don't. So using that as a factor in deciding which girl Alto chooses just doesn't make sense.

[MichiNekoChan]

I only pointed to episode 5 to give evidence that supports my claim that Ranka does throw tantrums/cry when she doesn't get her way (in this case Ozma not wanting her to sing/being angry she did Miss Macross behind his back and got suspended from school.)

And how can her running away from Ozma be filler or even comedy? Doesn't her running out the door cause Ozma to worry/send/call Mikhail(Micheal) to follow her, which leads them to Formo Mall, there-in she was challenged by Mikhail to sing in-front of people.

Then she sees Altos airplane, which gives her courage to sing and get scouted by Elmo.

Did you think all that would have happened if she ran crying into her room instead or even sat and listened to Ozmas side of the argument? There had to be a set-up that causes her to run out of the house.

Her getting angry and running out the door crying after not getting/having her way automatically... was that set-up.


PS - Justavisitor - Maybe because its the internet and things are a bit hard to get across here... but I do not understand why you quoted "failure" such as you did. Especially when I only used that word (well "failed", really) in the sentence/context of episode 20 in my Opinion Post.

[Marina Ismail]

I'm just going to wait for the 2nd movie... honestly this is just killing me but I'll always support Sheryl. Just gotta keep my fingers crossed lol.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

In my personal opinion, both Ranka's action in episode 5 and Sheryl catching the panties (or something close to that) were more like a comedy/filler of the show

Pretty much. Things before episode 11 were pretty easy on the protagonists, all things considered. The show only began to enter its "serious" phase from episode 11 forward.

Doesn't mean we got to dismiss the character development of them, but the shift in tone was difficult to miss.

And episode 8 is almost exclusively comedy material. If we go by realism, Sheryl should have died of 1000 fractured bones already when her Ex-Gear went ballistic in the hallways.

Originally Posted by KaoruLia

So we're down to comparing who's more immature in Macross F?

I'd rather say the comparison is of the maturity, rather than the immaturity ( which, of course, enters into the discussion ). If I'd have to boil down my analysis to one sentence, I guess it'd be along the lines of

"Ranka does not have the maturity Sheryl and Alto have reached and, staying within the bounds of what we know happened in the series, no viable path of reaching it in a time-window which would make her a competitive rival for Sheryl."

Or, more colloquially, if I were to look for a woman after having done the growing up Alto did, I wouldn't be looking for one with a shit-load of dolls in her bedroom and who just began asking me personal questions when she dumped me for the next best yes-man. I would be looking for the one who understands who I am now.

[justavisitor]

@MichiNekoChan
I used the word "failure" simply because I know many ppl don't like Ranka on episode 20, so I used "common language" in order to let other know what we are talking about...Of course, in my opinion, Ranka didn't fail...she did mess up in episode 20, no one knew why it got wrong (including Ranka and even Sheryl, who has great experience in singing), but yet Ranka had the courage to stand alone and sing again (at that time, Ranka still had no idea whether it would work this time) while thousands of Varja circled around her--To me, that was development, that was a sign that she started to embrace her responsibility and accept her destiny..that was a sign that she tried to take initiative and I like her a lot, a lot more because of that scene

my meaning of the original post was simply trying to say, Ranka and Sheryl both have immature moments (or you can say those are comedies/fillers), (Ranka crying and Sheryl does that dumbest thing I have seen in the whole series) but, when emergency looms, both want to and can handle it...of course, I fully acknowledge that is where our difference is, I have spent many hours arguing, so forgive me of not going to argue again this time

@raile
We were comparing those early episodes XD...so when Ranka did not get the stuff she wants, she cried; when Sheryl did not get the stuff she wants, she created havoc and tried to commit suicide!!

[BetoJR]

Well, that's simplifying things way too much, now isn't it? Oh, well...

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by MichiNekoChan

I only pointed to episode 5 to give evidence that supports my claim that Ranka does throw tantrums/cry when she doesn't get her way (in this case Ozma not wanting her to sing/being angry she did Miss Macross behind his back and got suspended from school.)

I believe the tantrum part of episode 5 wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I don't know about you guys but I laughed when Ranka threw everything but the kitchen sink at Ozma (Or was there a kitchen sink somewhere in there? ) Although I do agree that this episode portrayed Ranka as being stubborn but she does have a reason to be angry considering Ozma was still trying to keep Ranka in a bubble.

The only moment I saw Ranka act childish in this series was when she refused to try and understand Ozma but aside from that, I don't quite see what the issue is with Ranka in this episode.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I'd rather say the comparison is of the maturity, rather than the immaturity ( which, of course, enters into the discussion ).

To be honest, Ranka is pretty mature overall. Like I said in my above response, episode 5 was the only time I saw Ranka act childish and/or immature when she had her conversation with Michael. Everything else is a result of Ranka being naive. It was pretty evident that the staff was trying to convey the idea that Ranka was also trying to break out of the bubble Ozma contained her in for most of her life (along with discovering her past of course.)

Episode 5 with the Miss Macross contest is a good example of this and episode 8 is another which demonstrates Ranka transferring from the all girl's school that Ozma placed her in. But episode 14 was the best example when Ozma attempted to stop Ranka from going with Michael to save Alto. I believe that was one of the initial ideas for the first half of the episodes.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I believe the tantrum part of episode 5 wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I don't know about you guys but I laughed when Ranka threw everything but the kitchen sink at Ozma (Or was there a kitchen sink somewhere in there? ) Although I do agree that this episode portrayed Ranka as being stubborn but she does have a reason to be angry considering Ozma was still trying to keep Ranka in a bubble.

Not quite a bubble, She broke the school rules and got herself suspended. Ozma was definitely in the right in that situation. Especially since she demanded to become singer rather then present it in a respectable manner. He is her guardian after all.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

To be honest, Ranka is pretty mature overall. Like I said in my above post, episode 5 was the only time I saw Ranka act childish and/or immature when she had her conversation with Michael. Everything else is a result of Ranka being naive. It was pretty evident that the staff was trying to convey the idea that Ranka was also trying to break out of the bubble Ozma contained her in for most of her life (along with discovering her past of course.)

Episode 5 with the Miss Macross contest is a good example of this but episode 14 was the best example when Ozma tried to stop Ranka from going with Michael to save Alto.

Being Naive and being Mature tie in with each other. you can't develop and mature fully without going through the necessary experiences, some of it is just knowledge. Again, Ozma was in right. There was a rogue Zentradi battalion stationed there. And she left with one variable fighter and herself. A sniper non the less. Not exactly the safest of situations that you would let a family member run into. Not very smart either. Had it not been successful it would put them in further danger and probably place a huge dent in negotiation processes.

I've noticed that Ranka's main issue is she can't hold responsibility too well and holding responsibility is a form of maturity.

[willyvereb]

This is madness or what?
Everyone knows that Ranka is the less mature.
Just see a few beliefs about Ranka in the Macross fandom:
1.)Quite a few watchers think(at least first) that Ranka is 14 or younger.(opposed to Sheryl who looks older than her self-proclaimed age)
2.)Ranka is often associated with the cute and moe(Instead of sexy or simply womanly)
3.)Some falsely considers Ranka as loli.(it comes from an extreme case of point 1.) )
4.) Some compare Ranka to Minmei(In her respective show Minmei was the less mature love interest)
5.)Some fans are blaming her and hating her because of her irresponsibility at ep 20 which caused the deaths of thousands if not millions.(And even the death of Michael)

I think there's no place for argument. Ranka is the less mature of the two without a question. She's supposed to be like that from the start.

Although I can't say that Sheryl is completely mature. If she would be that way then her being 17 should be a complete lie. She's more mature than her age while Ranka is slightly less mature. I believe there's nothing serious with Ranka just...she wasn't born to be a heroine or a great savior. It isn't a problem. We have plenty of people like that. Few may call her spineless or use even more crude words to describe her but I do believe there aren't many people who could pull themselves together in her situation...at least if they really were serious about their feelings. Ranka is weak-willed. Stubborn but weak-willed.

But it doesn't disqualify her for Alto. Although it may hinder her if her rival is actually as straightforward as Sheryl.
That's why I blame the story-writers to not give Ranka a chance to mature more and be more expressive not only of her feelings but that expressiveness would grow to be a will to take action. She can't be protected non-stop by Alto while doing nothing in exchange. This is a thing she realized herself and tried hard to be useful to Alto. But she forgot one thing: For a relationship the two needs something to relate to, something which the two can share. This is true to every relationship. For friendship and "siblingship" they had the required shared something but she forgot to build this up at romance too. She usually looked perfectly fine with her relationship with Alto that way. Of course it wasn't exactly the case but the emphasis on the fact she looked like that way. Because Ranka had problems expressing herself this shyness prevented her from creating a stronger bond.

Well, I think Ranka actually lost to Sheryl for Alto's affections even if the ending was somehow ambiguous. It at wasn't ep 20-21, actually much earlier. Right after her glorious performance at ep 13-14 she slowly started to be a bit alienated from Alto due to many reasons. Well we can draw parallels between her and Minmei's case here but I save you from this ragged-down symbolism. To simply put Ranka had less and less time to spend with Alto as her duties and problems have started to gather. But if she would wished she could have spent more time with Alto. For example Sheryl who has been weak from illness almost the whole time could gether up her strength and sought Alto's company. Of course the Luck(Aka the plot) helped her also. Especially later when just like Ranka, Sheryl too avoided him for her own reasons.

In short the lack of contact made Ranka lose this fight. And apparently even the plot-writers somehow have arranged it that way.
But who knows for the movie? It is certain that they advertise the movies about solely just with Sheryl, but I think that was the same with Minmei at Macross. Sheryl is simply much more popular. Actually, I would prefer to see an Alto X Sheryl pairing in the end but there could be so much development in the second movie and so far the first movie hasn't decided a thing about romance.
If they execute properly I have no problems with an Alto X Ranka pairing.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Not quite a bubble, She broke the school rules and got herself suspended. Ozma was definitely in the right in that situation. Especially since she demanded to become singer rather then present it in a respectable manner. He is her guardian after all.

Being Naive and being Mature tie in with each other. you can't develop and mature fully without going through the necessary experiences, some of it is just knowledge. Again, Ozma was in right. There was a rogue Zentradi battalion stationed there. And she left with one variable fighter and herself. A sniper non the less. Not exactly the safest of situations that you would let a family member run into. Not very smart either. Had it not been successful it would put them in further danger and probably place a huge dent in negotiation processes.

I never said Ozma was wrong. I'm merely stating that I understand Ranka's reasons for taking the actions she did. I also said that Ranka was pretty mature overall, meaning she only lacks certain life experiences (which is not her fault.) I also believe you shouldn't take everything at face value, there are plenty of irresponsible decisions made throughout this series and Ranka's wasn't the only one.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

I've noticed that Ranka's main issue is she can't hold responsibility too well and holding responsibility is a form of maturity.

I believe this applies to all 3 main protagnoists, this isn't necessarily limited to Ranka.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I believe the tantrum part of episode 5 wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I don't know about you guys but I laughed when Ranka threw everything but the kitchen sink at Ozma (Or was there a kitchen sink somewhere in there? ) Although I do agree that this episode portrayed Ranka as being stubborn but she does have a reason to be angry considering Ozma was still trying to keep Ranka in a bubble.

Okay, let's reverse engineer this for a second. How about *your* daughter goes to a beauty contest without permission, getting expelled from the private school you put many resources getting her in? How would you react to that?

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

The only moment I saw Ranka act childish in this series was when she refused to try and understand Ozma but aside from that, I don't quite see what the issue is with Ranka in this episode.

In this series? Not going to go there, I don't want to be writing a list all evening. I guess you meant in that episode?

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

To be honest, Ranka is pretty mature overall. Like I said in my above response, episode 5 was the only time I saw Ranka act childish and/or immature when she had her conversation with Michael. Everything else is a result of Ranka being naive. It was pretty evident that the staff was trying to convey the idea that Ranka was also trying to break out of the bubble Ozma contained her in for most of her life (along with discovering her past of course.)

Oh, COME ON! You think Ranka not being able to get a grip on herself in a crisis situation in ep 20 is not immature? Her leaving Frontier on a true longshot? Ì can't really get that perspective.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Okay, let's reverse engineer this for a second. How about *your* daughter goes to a beauty contest without permission, getting expelled from the private school you put many resources getting her in? How would you react to that?

I would probably react in the same manner except I wouldn't reject her idea to become a singer, I'd at least try to understand her reasons for taking those actions especially if it was the first time in my life that she did something like that. It all depends on how my child grew up (i.e. - If my my child had a history of acting out.) Again, I don't think that scene was meant to be taken so seriously

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, COME ON! You think Ranka not being able to get a grip on herself in a crisis situation in ep 20 is not immature? Her leaving Frontier on a true longshot? Ì can't really get that perspective.

I don't understand how the second decision you mentioned can be called immature, I'd call it irrational not immature. As for episode 20, it was a result of being naive. Ranka lacked the experience of first love, depending on the individual, we all react in different ways. Ranka did get a grip on herself but was unable to tame the Vajra because she was emotionally unstable.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I would probably react in the same manner except I wouldn't reject her idea to become a singer, I'd at least try to understand her reasons for taking those actions especially if it was the first time in my life that she did something like that. It all depends on how my child grew up (i.e. - If my my child had a history of acting out.) Again, I don't think that scene was meant to be taken so seriously

Suspensions are serious business. Skipping school is also a pretty serious infraction. What would happen if being a singer didn't pan out? That black mark on her record stays forever. Alot of things had to go right for Ranka to get publicity, sacrificing a backup plan would disastrous for your child's future. A tantrum on top of that? At that point I wouldn't listen to her until she calmed down. Nobody is ever going to listen to you if your constantly screaming what you want to do. Respect is something earned, not warranted.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I believe this applies to all 3 main protagnoists, this isn't necessarily limited to Ranka.

The problem being we see a follow through with Alto and Sheryl. Theres no sort of consequence to indicate she'll learn anything from it. Even getting suspended from school didn't phase her.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I don't understand how the second decision you mentioned can be called immature, I'd call it irrational not immature. As for episode 20, it was a result of being naive. Ranka lacked the experience of first love, depending on the individual, we all react in different ways. Ranka did get a grip on herself but was unable to tame the Vajra because she was emotionally unstable.

If anything it's both. "I don't want to because I just saw something I didn't want to" is not a valid excuse. Her immaturity stems from her naive outlook. She had to be coerced into singing. Basically she just wanted to sit back and let people die while she cried about seeing Sheryl and Alto together. She wasn't clueless about it, she didn't really care for it at that time.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Suspensions are serious business. Skipping school is also a pretty serious infraction. What would happen if being a singer didn't pan out? That black mark on her record stays forever. Alot of things had to go right for Ranka to get publicity, sacrificing a backup plan would disastrous for your child's future. A tantrum on top of that? At that point I wouldn't listen to her until she calmed down. Nobody is ever going to listen to you if your constantly screaming what you want to do. Respect is something earned, not warranted.

If this series wanted us to take that scene serious then they would have made it a revolving theme, in which it didn't. You're right, that's all very serious in the sense of real life but it seems that particular skit was made for comedic purposes.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

The problem being we see a follow through with Alto and Sheryl. Theres no sort of consequence to indicate she'll learn anything from it. Even getting suspended from school didn't phase her.

If anything it's both. "I don't want to because I just saw something I didn't want to" is not a valid excuse. Her immaturity stems from her naive outlook. She had to be coerced into singing. Basically she just wanted to sit back and let people die while she cried about seeing Sheryl and Alto together. She wasn't clueless about it, she didn't really care for it at that time.

Unfortunately, this is part of Ranka's issue in portrayal by the staff. Her irresponsible behavior is something that seems to be addressed in the movie from the spoilers I've read though.

I don't believe Ranka's only reason was because she saw Alto and Sheryl together (although this is what caused her to become emotionally unstable) but also because she felt she was being used as a tool every time the Vajra attacked (it's fairly obvious Ranka could feel the Vajra's pain every time they're killed.) You're also not being fair by saying "she just wanted to sit back and let people die."

Emotions make us human and before she could even sing she had to calm down, she even said that she couldn't sing under those conditions. Sheryl's slap is what calmed her down enough to try and do what she could.

[Westlo]

Let's be reality, the only reason Alto wouldn't choose Sheryl in the end is if he insists on being the better looking one in a relationship. With Sheryl that's debatable but with Ranka...

[BetoJR]

Is it wrong of me to have LOL'ed at the above statement?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I would probably react in the same manner except I wouldn't reject her idea to become a singer, I'd at least try to understand her reasons for taking those actions especially if it was the first time in my life that she did something like that. It all depends on how my child grew up (i.e. - If my my child had a history of acting out.) Again, I don't think that scene was meant to be taken so seriously

Oh, the "throwing pans and stuff" part of course not. But I think the lesson to be imparted of the episode was a.) that Ranka had to get out of her shell and b.) that she wasn't thinking about other peoples feelings. Hell, Michael called her out directly for that.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I don't understand how the second decision you mentioned can be called immature, I'd call it irrational not immature. As for episode 20, it was a result of being naive. Ranka lacked the experience of first love, depending on the individual, we all react in different ways. Ranka did get a grip on herself but was unable to tame the Vajra because she was emotionally unstable.

I think in this case immaturity and irrationality go hand in hand.

And as Foreshadow said, naivité and immaturity are not as far separated from another as you may think.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Unfortunately, this is part of Ranka's issue in portrayal by the staff. Her irresponsible behavior is something that seems to be addressed in the movie from the spoilers I've read though.

Well, we are discussing the character in the series. Of course she acted as she was written, but if we seriously discuss the motivations of her and the others, we got to talk about them like persons, not written characters.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I don't believe Ranka's only reason was because she saw Alto and Sheryl together (although this is what caused her to become emotionally unstable) but also because she felt she was being used as a tool every time the Vajra attacked (it's fairly obvious Ranka could feel the Vajra's pain every time they're killed.) You're also not being fair by saying "she just wanted to sit back and let people die."

I have no doubt that Ranka liked less and less how her powers were being used, but it is not as simple as that. She assumed that responsibility out of her free will ( or at the very least, she was very easily convinced by Alto ) and she had an obligation to millions of people, who depended on her for their safety. That is not something which should be turned aside so easily as she did.

And I think that Foreshadows sentence simply didn't properly express that she was "wanting to sit back" and "people were dying meanwhile". Or am I mistaken?

[Father Hentai]

I am thinking the whole time if this is still the Romance in Macross thread or the Ranka thread.

We got far away from the red line.

This whole discussion about maturity and responsibility is a repeat of what has already been discussed in the Ranka Lee thread...