[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

Personally I think that cutting the line before the hurricane closed the island off the rest of the world was too much of a risk. What if someone noticed?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Personally I think that cutting the line before the hurricane closed the island off the rest of the world was too much of a risk. What if someone noticed?

If someone noticed there wouldn't be much of a difference in how things happened. At the most maybe the family meeting would've been moved to a later date if they discovered it, but even if they did and that didn't happen I don't think any major suspicions would be put on anyone. All the family members are guests on the island and they have to be treated politely. Even if Krauss and Natsuhi suspected that one of them cut the external line they wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

[Renall]

The ideal time to cut it would be late at night, or at least after dinner. At that point no one's around, you can blame the storm, and no one will discover it for hours.

[Judoh]

Also are we sure no one else besides the servants know how to cut the line? Besides Battler many of the family members have been visiting the island for the family meeting every year. It's possible at least one of them knows where both the internal and external phone lines are and how they work. Although the addition of the guesthouse might make for a more recent change to the phone line that would add a problem.

[LaplaceNoMa]

I'd like to say something not related to your discussions but still pretty important:

For Christ's sake, put any ep6 information in spoiler tags. This thread should be considered ep6-safe ONLY when the translation comes.

Thank you.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa

I'd like to say something not related to your discussions but still pretty important:

For Christ's sake, put any ep6 information in spoiler tags. This thread should be considered ep6-safe ONLY when the translation comes.

Thank you.

Trust me, some of us did try a bit, at least early on, but in my experience even if I mark EP6 spoilers it gets quoted or discussed without the spoiler tag and it kind of veers off from there. So with more minor spoilers or things that are being generally discussed it's gotten kind of pointless.

It'd be nice if we headed in this direction though or made a temporary thread for translated portions only (until Witch-Hunt catches up), I agree. Because this thread has never really been safe for anybody who hasn't read up to the current Japanese episode, in my experience, and there's not a specific rule against what spoilers can "go".

[Judoh]

We can at least be considerate of others though. I haven't seen that many episode 6 spoilers here lately. Just one or two, but it's nothing that would ruin the story for me.

[ameskitty]

Yeah, agreed. I wasn't saying that it was a good thing that this thread has never been safe by any means.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Release date: 30th December 09 (Comiket 77)

Thread Guidelines:


If any of you would like to weave theories and the like, please post in the [Game] Umineko - Spoilers and speculations thread instead.

I think the problem is we're not allowed to speculate theories in the episode 6 thread yet. The quote is from the guidelines in the episode 6 thread.

[Kurizu204]

Since Hachijou wrote ep 3-6 then shouldn't everything be solvable with ep 1-2?

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Kurizu204

Since Hachijou wrote ep 3-6 then shouldn't everything be solvable with ep 1-2?

In theory, yes. But that's akin to guessing the correct word out of the entire English language without any defined constraints. The later EPs make the story more difficult by adding extra mysteries, but solving those mysteries in theory will give you the ability to see Rokkenjima for what it really is. Thus, you'd be able to practically solve EPs 1 and 2 only with 3+.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

In theory, yes. But that's akin to guessing the correct word out of the entire English language without any defined constraints. The later EPs make the story more difficult by adding extra mysteries, but solving those mysteries in theory will give you the ability to see Rokkenjima for what it really is. Thus, you'd be able to practically solve EPs 1 and 2 only with 3+.

Actually, EP 2 is suppose to be the hardest of all the games. Ryukishi himself even said it was the most challenging. The other games have a significantly reduced difficulty level and in-game it says that Beatrice called for Ronove and Virgilia to appear in EP 3, in order to help Battler out since he had such a hard time in the 2nd game.

[Pinguma]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but I think there might be a way to actually establish Rosa's complete innocence and involvement in the first twilight.

Taken from my (currently incomplete) EP2 theory:

Spoiler for EP2 First Twilight:

Night before the murder:
About the night before, the adults and 'Beatrice' have gathered in the chapel, and they all seem to acknowledge this witch, saying that they accept it. I have a feeling it is to do with the gold bars lined up on the table. Battler and the lot observe three on the table the following day, and its said that Krauss only ever had found one. They are killed in the chapel, so note they must have been gone there themselves or at least been captured (which I find much more unlikely) to follow the red.

The chapel:
Well it's a lot of red text, taken from both EP2 and EP4:

Only one key to the chapel exists
It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit
This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel
That which was inside the envelope I entrusted Maria with, was definitely the key to the chapel
The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
There was no simultaneous murder!!
There was no one hiding in the chapel.
When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

So:

• Culprit was in the chapel during the murder
• All were killed by other people
• The murder occurred in the chapel
• No one is hiding in the chapel
• The key passed through no one's hands.

If we assume this to mean to have literally passed through no-one's hands (which it could):

There is strangely nothing stating that the chapel can be locked without using the chapel key. For example, in the other closed rooms such as Jessica's room and the servant's room, it is stated in red that it is impossible to lock room X from outside without a key, yet it is not stated so for the chapel.

No device could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key
No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key

(These are the reds for Jessica's room and the servant's room respectively.)

Therefore, my reasoning goes something like this. There is nothing to suggest Rosa knew the key to the chapel lay inside the envelope until the following morning. The chapel had been unlocked beforehand before being handed over in the envelope. The adults went into the chapel because 'Beatrice' appeared before them and led them there, stating that she is the alchemy counseller to the Ushiromiya family, and was providing proof for her position. There is evidence to suggest this due to Battler discovering three gold bars on the chapel table when it is stated that Krauss only ever found one. This 'Beatrice' already knows the location of the gold. Rosa feeling tired or not wanting to continue discussion that night left before the others. With six gathered, this 'Beatrice' then enacted the murder, most likely with the help of some accomplices, and then they locked the chapel by Method X without using the chapel key, thereby creating a closed room.

The only problem is establishing this Method X.

[Jan-Poo]

If this is the key to solve the mystery then the anime messed up quite badly because I think it modified the sentence including "locking"in it.

[Raneh]

Originally Posted by Pinguma

Taken from my (currently incomplete) EP2 theory:

Spoiler for EP2 First Twilight:

There is strangely nothing stating that the chapel can be locked without using the chapel key. For example, in the other closed rooms such as Jessica's room and the servant's room, it is stated in red that it is impossible to lock room X from outside without a key, yet it is not stated so for the chapel.

In the anime there was a red text like this
jap: 礼拝堂の施錠は礼拝堂の鍵以外では開錠不可能!
eng: It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key!
I know the anime isn't really a reliable source but I don't know why they would add red text unless they were sure it's true (like Ryukishi's confirmation)

Edit: Agreed with Jan-Poo, they already fucked up by excluding reds so I actually wouldn't be surprised if this was incorrect..

[Jan-Poo]

A small correction, what Raneh reported is the novel sentence. As it was written by Klashikari here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...85#post2593385

the anime sentence is: 礼拝堂の扉は礼拝堂の鍵以外では施錠も開錠も不可能!

As you can see it's exactly the same as in the novel, except they added that part which means "lock and" and they changed the "lock" into "door" so the translation becomes: It is impossible to lock and unlock the door to the chapel without the chapel's key!

[Raneh]

Ah, yes, pasted the wrong sentence. Anyway I don't think others red texts have significantly been changed/added, only left out. Is this the only one?

[Pinguma]

Hmm, I think the deciding factor is:
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

(The context is that Battler states someone could have secretly borrowed and returned it). At this point he didn't bother stating it was Rosa herself.

It's just the way one would read "passed through no-one's hands", referring to the key itself, suggesting it was not even touched one bit till Rosa unseals it.

It could also suggest that Maria is the only one who touched it (because Maria has received it) before Rosa unseals it the next day. Though I find it really unlikely that the murder would occur, and that Maria would be asked to come along in the middle of the night by 'Beatrice' without anyone noticing/waking up and then locking the door for her after seeing her big surprise. I can see her going along, but not actually being able to do it.

[Antera Caramichael]

Originally Posted by Pinguma

Spoiler for EP2 First Twilight:

The chapel:
Well it's a lot of red text, taken from both EP2 and EP4:

Only one key to the chapel exists
It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit
This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel
That which was inside the envelope I entrusted Maria with, was definitely the key to the chapel
The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
There was no simultaneous murder!!
There was no one hiding in the chapel.
When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

So:

• Culprit was in the chapel during the murder
• All were killed by other people
• The murder occurred in the chapel
• No one is hiding in the chapel
• The key passed through no one's hands.

If we assume this to mean to have literally passed through no-one's hands (which it could):

There is strangely nothing stating that the chapel can be locked without using the chapel key. For example, in the other closed rooms such as Jessica's room and the servant's room, it is stated in red that it is impossible to lock room X from outside without a key, yet it is not stated so for the chapel.

No device could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key
No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key

(These are the reds for Jessica's room and the servant's room respectively.)

Personnally, I had another theory concerning this twilight:

Spoiler for Theory:

The first thing I see from the Red Truth (If it really is all of them) is that it wasn't ever stated that the Chapel was locked in the first place.
All we have is the servants and Rosa saying that it was.
More over, if it is the litteral translation, then:
All were killed by other people!
Maybe I am fooling myself, but if I know english well, since the singular is "person", doesn't it mean that there was more than one culprit?
Therefore, my theory is that:
The Chapel was never lock in the first place. One of the culprits gave the key in the envelope to Maria after unlocking the Chapel's door. Then, he led the adults in it, as it is the less visited zone of the manor (It is said that only Kanon goes sometimes there in order to clean it) and so the one with the less risk to found corpses. There, he killed them with accomplices and they made the scene. The only thing they had to do then is to claim that the door was locked all the night.

[Ronove]

Uhmm... another theory here:

Does where the Ushiromiya family place their Golden Eagle tattoo matter? Also, why did Kinzo allow Shannon and Kanon wear the family crest again?

Also, to verify if ShKanon exists, we just need Kanon to cut his pants and see if the Golden Crest is there!