(L) Seirei no Moribito (Guardian of the Sacred Spirit)

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Saffire

Unlike you, I accepted Tanda's prognosis from the start.

Same here. Considering that Tanda has a shamanistic background, his diagnosis is pretty spot on for his character and the situation at hand.

But perhaps it would've helped if the episode showed him pondering about it longer. Even though in the world of Seirei where "healers" aren't necessarily divorced from the spiritual aspect of things, I kind of view him more as a herbal medicine man more than anything. It seems he still has a long way to go before reaching Torogai's level.

[Saffire]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Same here. Considering that Tanda has a shamanistic background, his diagnosis is pretty spot on for his character and the situation at hand.

But perhaps it would've helped if the episode showed him pondering about it longer. Even though in the world of Seirei where "healers" aren't necessarily divorced from the spiritual aspect of things, I kind of view him more as a herbal medicine man more than anything. It seems he still has a long way to go before reaching Torogai's level.

Yeah. I even think Tanda himself mentions he really isn't that good on the purely shamanistic aspects of the healing art. In the episode when he was healing Balsa, I think he said something along the line of he never was very good at the spiritual stuff, but the regular herbal healing he's become quite good at it, since he had to heal Balsa's wounds all the time.

And I agree that him pondering or explaining the matter might have helped in many aspects, or had him speak about it before in a previous episode. Any information about a certain aspect of Seirei (or in anything for that matter) that's mentioned before it actually happens does a lot of good in the long run. It's like saying the mountains are very snowy and dangerous before the main characters go to the mountains an episode before hand, then having them get caught up into the avalanche the next. I think it's a lot more believable than an avalanche just popping out of the blue.

Ah, and on a slightly off-note, but a pleasing one nonetheless, the Seirei no Moribito soundtrack is due out tomorrow! Well, it's probably already out in Japan, but still... Anyway, I can't wait to get my hands on it. I loved the background music from the start, especially that of the funeral procession's.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Saffire

These people are very...how should I put this... basic?

That is pretty much the reason why I failed to take it in objectively (for a few brief moments, if I may add ) as it was presented. The timeline in this series makes their understanding of Saya's conditon very much obsolete compared to ours. But when Tanda truly went on to prove his soul-escaping diagnostic a few moments later, his prognosis was all but true. He wasn't a "quack" by any means, while I am pretty sure the Shaman from Laos is. Tanda has established himself as the doctor, if you will, of this show where spiritualism is just as much an acquired trait to be used, just as it is necessary to learn about herbiology. Even though Wao has pretty much drilled into most of us who have regularly ventured into this thread about the type of storytelling this show will come to undertake, it is still pretty easy to get caught in the moments of things. Or at least, it is certainly true where I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

The reason Borges can categorize into only four molds is because he makes them so basic and general. As people have said from time immemorial, stories are always being recycled. But it's the characters, and how well you flesh them out and colour them in that makes an old story interesting again. That's why I think the impact of strong, sympathetic characters can never be underestimated in story-telling. It's hard to write a truly innovative plotline, and even then it may not impact the audience all that much... it's somewhat easier to create likeable, realistic and well fleshed out characters that the audience can care about, and having them is the first step to having a story that the audience can truly connect to, even if the basic plotline is somewhat familiar.

Don't like to leave much room for disagreement, do you? Well, I agree.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by monir

But when Tanda truly went on to prove his soul-escaping diagnostic a few moments later, his prognosis was all but true. He wasn't a "quack" by any means, while I am pretty sure the Shaman from Laos is. Tanda has established himself as the doctor, if you will, of this show where spiritualism is just as much an acquired trait to be used, just as it is necessary to learn about herbiology.

Out of curiosity, would you consider faith healing to be "quack" too? My impression is that there is a hardcore fringe of religious fundamentalists in the US who believe that faith alone can physically cure illnesses.

My point is, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss some of these forms of healing, even though my education causes me to be skeptical about them too. Take for example, traditional Chinese medicine (TCM). Many of its broad concepts and principles come across as "primitive" and "unsophisticated" in comparison to modern Western medicine. Very generally speaking, TCM is based on a philosophy that is not dissimilar to the ancient Greek concept of "humours". It's based on the concept of balancing "heat" and "cold" within the human body, through a combination of excercise, diet and medication.

First impression? From a Western point-of-view, it comes across as so being cheesy and unscientific that it is almost a joke. But guess what? Millions of Chinese (and non-Chinese) swear by it -- TCM has worked to ameliorate many different kinds of illnesses and diseases, and generally improve the quality of life for many sufferers. So much so that Western researchers are beginning to take TCM seriously, and actually try to find out why TCM works in some cases where Western medicine failed.

For many people in Asia, the "other" world remains a very nearby reality. It'd be easy to dismiss a lot of these beliefs as mere superstition. But behind the tall tales, there are occasional cases where you'd really be left wondering whether there is a grain of truth behind those beliefs. Even in Singapore, I still regularly come across stories of people who are cursesd/blessed with a "third eye", people who are (un)fortunate enough to see spirits everywhere.

I'd imagine that an anthropologist like Uehashi-sensei would have come across plenty of such stories during her research, and incorporated these tales into her novels.

[monir]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Out of curiosity, would you consider faith healing to be "quack" too? My impression is that there is a hardcore fringe of religious fundamentalists in the US who believe that faith alone can physically cure illnesses.

Oh boy! Faith based discussion is such a delicate topic that even the most careful of answers can leave room for some sort of reaction, so I would rather refrain from venturing into that territory. In the context of the show, I could at least say that Tanda is by no means, a "quack" (I already regret for using that term ^^) as it has been demonstrated in episode 11. Am I off the hook?

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

For many people in Asia, the "other" world remains a very nearby reality. It'd be easy to dismiss a lot of these beliefs as mere superstition. But behind the tall tales, there are occasional cases where you'd really be left wondering whether there is a grain of truth behind those beliefs. Even in Singapore, I still regularly come across stories of people who are cursesd/blessed with a "third eye", people who are (un)fortunate enough to see spirits everywhere.

Hah, I can attest to that.

For example, my grandmother from the mother's side is a very devout Catholic, yet she still holds on to superstitious beliefs that would normally go against church teachings.

My other grandmother on the other hand, can easily recall her childhood days when she used to play with fairy children at night at the nearby playground.

I have friends who are mountain hikers, and they would often tell me how they would always keep the mountain clean, and mutter "excuse me" lest they anger the mountain spirits that dwell there. (Because they can be small, and you wouldn't want to step on one by accident.)

There was also that strange maid my family used to have a very long time ago, who claimed that my sister has this ominous mark on her butt that allows her to see spirits. My parents, in a humorous manner, suspected that she was a witch of some sort. Heck, even some uncle from my father's mother's side is said to have married one for some reason. Why? No one knows, but some folks swear he was probably bewitched or something.

My uncles and aunts have often told me how I was able to see my dead grandfather when I was little, pointing at empty spots of the room calling out his name. Sometimes, it makes me wonder too you know.

Ahh, life back home always had an interesting air about it. The mundane and the strange always come hand in hand. It can be funny sometimes, but that aspect was always there.


So... was Tanda's diagnosis even remotely puzzling or surprising to me? Nope, not at all.

[Saffire]

Originally Posted by monir

Oh boy! Faith based discussion is such a delicate topic that even the most careful of answers can leave room for some sort of reaction, so I would rather refrain from venturing into that territory. In the context of the show, I could at least say that Tanda is by no means, a "quack" (I already regret for using that term ^^) as it has been demonstrated in episode 11. Am I off the hook?

I didn't think you meant anything offensive by it. ^^'... Though I must say the Shamans from Laos are not "quacks" by the term you're using. It may not be real, but the people and the shamans really do believe it, I think. Thus, using the word "quack" may not be correct. And yeah, Faith based discussions are iffy. And hey, sometimes it "works" for some reason or another. Whether by power of the mind, the body itself staving off the disease and getting better on its own, or by some kind of real, spirtual power, depending on what you believe. It's like the Placebo thing. It isn't real medication, but it works for some reason. o.0

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I'd imagine that an anthropologist like Uehashi-sensei would have come across plenty of such stories during her research, and incorporated these tales into her novels.

She's really an anthropologist? Well, that explains a lot of things to me now. At least, to me, anyway.

[Tom Bombadil]

Just caught up with what had been aired so far. I don't think I need to repeat how superb this show is in terms of animation qualities. But the slow pace of the recent episodes does bother me a little. I don't really mind character developing episodes, like the one centered around Chagum. But there are a few characters that imo are quite useless plotwise, and they just happen to get plenty screen times.

Sagum(Chagum's step brother, if you don't know). Anyone care to argue why this guy is in the show? What does he do? I don't know why the little sidestory of him collecting Chagum's things is worthy telling at all. If they want to show someone in the palace is worried about Chagum, I think it can be achieved much more effectively through Chagum's mother, who, to my surprise, had been pretty much cast into oblivion.

Similarly, it seems to me all Shuga does is following the old guy around and exchange some hateful eye sights with the other guy. But it is quite obivious that he might be of some use later on. So I think I'll bear with him for now.

When I watch the first few episodes, it really below me away. But you can see that I am so worry that bad story telling might ruin it.

[wao]

Originally Posted by monir

Even though Wao has pretty much drilled into most of us who have regularly ventured into this thread about the type of storytelling this show will come to undertake

Have I? I have no idea how the story will continue on, really - I mean anyone can tell there'd be a good amount of talking here and there, but I wouldn't have predicted that the show would have continued in this vein for so long. Although I think it's reasonable to assume the show will go back into "action mode" around ep 12-13 since the time they can spend peacefully is limited... but that's something I'm sure most people here are guessing.

I guess one reason why I don't mind the slow episodes is because... well, it kinda makes sense - currently the Crew is entirely under the impression that Barsa's plan has worked very well, and there's no reason to get all unnecessarily worked up since it'd affect Chagum and it might give themselves away. So what else would they do but live a normal life? And if the creators have so much to show us about this new world - which, IMO, is interesting and nice enough to watch - then I'm fine if they continue showing us this sort of stuff. Often the "peaceful period" would be skipped over to further the plot, but I'm fine if they don't here...
Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but when there's a series of episodes like this in a row, when the crunch time comes then all the more does the tension make itself felt.
It's a little bit like with... uh... Infinite Ryvius or something - by showing periods of normalcy and peacefulness, when characters get into bad periods or when a disaster happens it feels all the more impactful because of the contrast.

The parts of the show that do bore me to tears are the conversations with the sages and all of that - a lot of talk but it doesn't feel creatively put across at all. On the other hand, something like episode 10 was surprisingly good for me, because they took something that would have been dead boring but somehow made me really excited by the end of it. I guess it works if you're personally interested in the characters and like to see more of the world as it builds up.

It's not like it's doing anything fantastically new or super-creative, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying this anyway. Although I think I still have a more "detached" interest with this, as compared to Twelve Kingdoms (no, we're not going down that path, I just used it as an example) where I enjoyed it more personally despite it being less 'perfect' and without as good animation.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Sagum(Chagum's step brother, if you don't know). Anyone care to argue why this guy is in the show? What does he do?

I assumed there'd be some type of imperial succession crisis near the end of the show once Chagum reappears, perhaps in reaction to the expected drought and famine. If birth order matters, Sagum appears to be next in line to inherit the throne, yet my instincts tell me Chagum will end up there instead. I think it was important to establish that Sagum loves his brother because it's possible they'll end up being antagonists later on.

I wouldn't be quick to write off anyone. Before episode 11, Saya seemed rather superfluous. Whether she is just a plot device, or whether she will play a deeper role, still remains to be seen.

[gaguri]

Originally Posted by wao

Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but when there's a series of episodes like this in a row, when the crunch time comes then all the more does the tension make itself felt.
It's a little bit like with... uh... Infinite Ryvius or something - by showing periods of normalcy and peacefulness, when characters get into bad periods or when a disaster happens it feels all the more impactful because of the contrast.

It's common (and more effective I think) in any story telling medium to use 'peaceful' moments between more dramatic moments to relieve built up tensions, while providing contrast. But I think there's a certain threshold point, where no more of calm moments can heighten the dramatic impact that follows after. If anything, it drowns the sense of urgency under overwhelming sense of security, so much that we forget what the main hero is truly fighting for, and pay our interest to lesser things instead. It's already been a while since the loss of that momentum from earlier episodes. While there is a lot of approval of how the show has depicted its more elaborate features, lot of people are also not complaining about the story needing to progress, a clear sign of their interests on Balsa's fight replaced by other entertaining aspects of that world and characters. Whether good or not, focus has evidently shifted from following their intense struggle to other stuff, not because they want to provide calm moments for stronger impacts that follows.

As a sidenote, I saw Infinite Ryvius as a non-stop, intense drama, where they're unified against the odds that threaten their survival and torn apart when external threats are no more. Constant sea-saw of external and internal conflicts and 'peaceful moments' extremely rare.

[gvozden]

Sagum is supposed to be "frail health", so he might not survive the end of series.

[TinyRedLeaf]

You know you're enjoying a work of art when it bears up to repeated viewings. Even more when you catch things you didn't notice the first time round.

For example, Episode 11. Did anyone else realise that the old man is Tanda's uncle (if you did, good for you, perhaps I was the one who was slow, haha)? Why do I think so? The donkey outside the hut -- it's the same donkey Torogai borrowed in Episode 6.

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

If they want to show someone in the palace is worried about Chagum, I think it can be achieved much more effectively through Chagum's mother, who, to my surprise, had been pretty much cast into oblivion.

Hmm...a bit of cultural knowledge is needed here perhaps? The Japanese, more so than any other East Asian civilisation, have an obsession with "cleanliness". There is a strict division between "uchi" (inside) and "soto" (outside), hence the rule of removing your shoes, which carry "outside" dirt, before you go "inside" your home. (Although, in this case, it is also a simple way to keep your home clean, haha.)

But this ritual extends to spiritual matters as well. Particular with matters considered taboo, such as death. Death carries a taint of corruption that must be expunged. In Heian Japan, for example, the Imperial capital was moved each time an Emperor died. That's right, they'd literally abandon the whole city and start a new one from scratch. The practise stopped only after they established the first permanent capital in Nara (they must have finally realised how stupidly expensive it was, lol).

This is more or less what happened to Chagum's mother as well. Chagum was considered cursed, and everything around him was cursed by association. Hence, to purify the Palace, Chagum's mother had to be exiled. To use the Chinese phrase, she was "thrown into the cold (palace)."

In other words, what happened to Chagum's mother was pretty normal. Not surprising at all.

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

...the slow pace of the recent episodes does bother me a little. I don't really mind character developing episodes, like the one centered around Chagum. But there are a few characters that imo are quite useless plotwise, and they just happen to get plenty screen times.

Sagum(Chagum's step brother, if you don't know). Anyone care to argue why this guy is in the show? What does he do? I don't know why the little sidestory of him collecting Chagum's things is worthy telling at all.

I can't say I'm certain what role Sagum plays. Except that, as others have already observed, he is a sickly man who might not live to ascend the throne.

What's remarkable about Sagum is that he is not bitter about his fate. He seems to accept his lot in life, and if it had not been for his frail health, he too might have made a good ruler. But reality being what it is, Sagum chooses to place his hopes on his younger brother, who was already growing into a child prodigy. Even a sage like Shuga felt the reverential need to preserve Chagum's notes -- from what little we could see, they were very well-sketched, clearly not the idle doodlings of a spoilt prince. (Chagum could easily become a naturalist, if not an Emperor ).

Through Sagum, and all the other characters at the Palace, we get the feeling that everyone implicitly "knows" that Chagum is more likely to become Emperor than Sagum. Ordinarily, you'd expect an elder prince to be plotting to get rid of a potential rival. Instead, we get a prince who genuinely loves his younger brother, which reinforces the idea that Chagum is someone truly extraorindary. He is someone who inspires love and respect among all who know him personally.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

But this ritual extends to spiritual matters as well. Particular with matters considered taboo, such as death. Death carries a taint of corruption that must be expunged. In Heian Japan, for example, the Imperial capital was moved each time an Emperor died. That's right, they'd literally abandon the whole city and start a new one from scratch. The practise stopped only after they established the first permanent capital in Nara (they must have finally realised how stupidly expensive it was, lol).

This is more or less what happened to Chagum's mother as well. Chagum was considered cursed, and everything around him was cursed by association. Hence, to purify the Palace, Chagum's mother had to be exiled. To use the Chinese phrase, she was "thrown into the cold (palace)."

In other words, what happened to Chagum's mother was pretty normal. Not surprising at all.

Also, during the Heian era noble ladies had their own personal estate, and interested lords had to visit each house and court them from the outside (mostly through poetry) before being granted access to meet face to face. That was actually considered to be the best part of the whole thing—the "getting to know" phase prior to consummation. Even after marriage, these women still retained their estates, and this can be also seen in Seirei with the Emperor's wives (or concubines) living separately.

[MrProphet]

Regarding the Second Empress, I also seem to recall a Japanese custom where the concubines were counted first wife or second wife not according to their age or time spent in marriage to the emperor, but rather according to the birth of the first son.

Sagum's mother gave birth to Sagum first, so she is the First Empress, living in the First Palace, while younger Chagum's mother is the Second Empress, living in the Second Palace.

Since Chagum is now officially dead, his mother has no claim to any kind of seniority and basically reverted to being the Emperor's concubine. One of many, most likely.

I didn't know that the old guy was Tanda's uncle. I thought he was some local healer send in by the groom's family to look at Saya. I don't see how anyone can know that, since I don't think that they've given us even a slightest hint of familiar relationship.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Regarding the Second Empress, I also seem to recall a Japanese custom where the concubines were counted first wife or second wife not according to their age or time spent in marriage to the emperor, but rather according to the birth of the first son.

The one who gives birth to the first son becomes "Imperial Matriarch" or something like that. She's the one who gets to rule the roost, so to speak.

[runpsicat]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Since Chagum is now officially dead, his mother has no claim to any kind of seniority and basically reverted to being the Emperor's concubine. One of many, most likely.

Hmm well, the Third Empress has yet to bear any children at this point in the Moribito series' timeline, but she's an official wife and not a concubine (Yogo Emperors can have up to three wives, mm). I believe the Second Empress' exile was more a punishment for engineering Chagum's escape.

PS (off-topic): Nice avatar... what's the source? >.>

[wrex_japan]

Ep. 12 screencaps and summary.

Chagum defends the honor of his country and fathers.

[Asai]

Whee, the OST is out. Such gorgeous music. (I hadn't even noted Kawai Kenji did it. I love his work <3) great OST for a great series.

[wao]

Sigh, all you people complaining about the story not getting back to pace should hopefully be quiet when it comes to ep 13, it looks like your wishes will come true or something.

12 was kinda meh in some places I have to say. I think the direction and storyboarding was not as good as before, and while Umakoshi's a great guy and stuff his simpler way of drawing people here (as the animation supervisor) took a bit of getting used to. I wish we could have seen more of him doing the fighting, kinda...