Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Archived Discussion

[babbo3d]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Tatsuya's innate talent lies in decomposition magic, the reason he can use Gram Demolition is because he has massive a lot of psions and also because of his excellent control over it, but just like it's being already mentionned while the number of practionners of Gram Demolition is almost inexistent there are still a few, so if Tatsuya can turn this into an armour some of them will also be able to do the same.

Even within that group the can use it, the number that will be able to deploy the armor continuesly will be in the minority, like mayumi said because of the sheer numer of psion necessary to use it thoe that can are usually limited to one shot a day. Putting range zero aside who was born with a abnormal constitution the number of people who have both the psion count and control to be use it in battle can probably be counted in hand.

[NoLife222]

Originally Posted by Waxman

I insist with something i said earlier, Tatsuya is first Miyuki older brother, i mean practical, he does only what he consider enought, never less, but never more either.
His acomplishment in the public moral committe and the nine school are impressive only because his standar are somewhat above normal, but he himself said that he isn´t interested in creating devious tricks night and day but looking for the most simple method to accomplish his goals.
Compared with Tomitsuka armor he has more simpler ways of dealing with enemies magic

Well put the armor aside, I think Tatsuya will create countermeasure to penetrate the armor.

[Jirachier]

even if they are rare, right now the number of people who can actually counter his magic is almost inexistent, i'd rather no one gets added to that number.
The only way that this wouldn't affect badly Tatsuya is if he develops some kind of technique that can force the psion armour to have a structure, this way it won't be able to counter him.

[Waxman]

I think that mos probably thing will get fisicals from now on, they failed to make first high look like a training facility for children/ magic soldiers, an the school even gained reputation for its research, so they will probably try to force them to fight in public, not to kill students probably but to show normal people how dangerous magic teenagers can be

[silenceblade]

The psion armour (and maybe magic shields) can only prevent the Mist Dispersion part of Decomposition not the entire whole. Material burst is an energy attack and decomposition can also decompose the magic defense itself. Including the psion armour immunity to Mist Dispersion in the story may have been the author way of creating new techniques in Decomposition as there are few uses to use it since its power is too great (can decompose matter and magic as a whole or parts).

[Jirachier]

the psion armour prevents both Mist Dispersion and Gram Dispersion, which are basically the only abilities from decomposition that Tatsuya can use in battle unless you want him to blow himself and everything around him with Material Burst.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Tatsuya's innate talent lies in decomposition magic, the reason he can use Gram Demolition is because he has massive a lot of psions and also because of his excellent control over it, but just like it's being already mentionned while the number of practionners of Gram Demolition is almost inexistent there are still a few, so if Tatsuya can turn this into an armour some of them will also be able to do the same.

Has it ever been indicated that Tatsuya has excellent psion control?

He can construct magic sequences with skill, but that's a different issue.

As I understand it, the only reason more people don't use Gram Demolition is because they don't have the psion count for it. Other than that, it's a simple technique.

[silenceblade]

Gram Dispersionand demolition is not decomposition magic, it is non-systemic magic as stated in volume 4. Also gram dispersion and demolition did work but was just not effective as gram demolition (including armour) can negate magic only to a certain extend.

[bludvein]

Originally Posted by silenceblade

Gram Dispersionand demolition is not decomposition magic, it is non-systemic magic as stated in volume 4. Also gram dispersion and demolition did work but was just not effective as gram demolition (including armour) can negate magic only to a certain extend.

Gram Demolition is non-systematic, but thats not the case with Gram Dispersion. At least not by the stated rules that they classify them by. Non-systematic magic is just the manipulation of psions without a sequence.

Meanwhile, Gram Dispersion has an actual sequence and its used to break down opposing magic. Pretty much the definition of decomposition. Im actually pretty sure it was flat out said to belong to the system in the LN.

EDIT: Also, with how Tats magic works it would have to be decomposition. If its not non-systematic and its faster than Gram Demolition, then it has to be a part of Tat's innate magic.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Has it ever been indicated that Tatsuya has excellent psion control?

He can construct magic sequences with skill, but that's a different issue.

As I understand it, the only reason more people don't use Gram Demolition is because they don't have the psion count for it. Other than that, it's a simple technique.

from Vol4 :

"When compared to normal Magicians, Honoka, who specialized in light wave oscillation magic, was only acutely sensitive towards the magical side effects that created light wave background noise.

An overabundance of interference or remnants of Magic Sequences would all form into surplus psion surges and oscillate in the empty air. When photons interact with these responses, the ensuing result is light wave noise.

But this cacophony was wholly undetectable in his magic.

In other words, there were no excess materials in his Magic Sequence. His Magic Power was expanded to its limit and entirely devoted towards phenomenon rewriting, making for a magic that was calculated down to the last detail. "

wouldn't using magic perfectly require exceptional and fine control over psions ?

As for Gram Demolition, if all it required was enough Psion to be cast, the number of practionners wouldn't be so low, true the amount of psion Tatsuya has is absurb but he can cast dozens of them, so there must be quite an important number with at least a 10th of his psion reserves but somehow Gram Demolition is still considered something that only a handful have, even Myuki doesn't have it.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

from Vol4 :
An overabundance of interference or remnants of Magic Sequences would all form into surplus psion surges and oscillate in the empty air. When photons interact with these responses, the ensuing result is light wave noise.

But this cacophony was wholly undetectable in his magic.

In other words, there were no excess materials in his Magic Sequence. His Magic Power was expanded to its limit and entirely devoted towards phenomenon rewriting, making for a magic that was calculated down to the last detail. "

wouldn't using magic perfectly require exceptional and fine control over psions ?

I bolded the area I focused on. The psion surges are caused by interference or from Magic Sequences. The way I read that scene was that it was because Tatsuya is very good at constructing Magic Sequences that there is a lack of psion surge.

A more negative interpretation, and the one I've held for a while, was that it was actually because Tatsuya has such a small calculation area that things turned out that way. Because it takes him a while to construct Magic Sequences, he ends up having to do it very precisely by constructing the bare minimum, unlike the other magicians who just power through the calculations.

Gram Demolition is still considered something that only a handful have, even Myuki doesn't have it.

Did Miyuki ever say she doesn't have it?

While she did let Tatsuya handle the bus-jacking incident, it is possible that she instead chose to focus on the fire, while knowing that Tatsuya could handle the Magic Sequences. Also, she has this thing about making Tatsuya show off his abilities.

[bludvein]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

from Vol4 :

"When compared to normal Magicians, Honoka, who specialized in light wave oscillation magic, was only acutely sensitive towards the magical side effects that created light wave background noise.

An overabundance of interference or remnants of Magic Sequences would all form into surplus psion surges and oscillate in the empty air. When photons interact with these responses, the ensuing result is light wave noise.

But this cacophony was wholly undetectable in his magic.

In other words, there were no excess materials in his Magic Sequence. His Magic Power was expanded to its limit and entirely devoted towards phenomenon rewriting, making for a magic that was calculated down to the last detail. "

wouldn't using magic perfectly require exceptional and fine control over psions ?

As for Gram Demolition, if all it required was enough Psion to be cast, the number of practionners wouldn't be so low, true the amount of psion Tatsuya has is absurb but he can cast dozens of them, so there must be quite an important number with at least a 10th of his psion reserves but somehow Gram Demolition is still considered something that only a handful have, even Myuki doesn't have it.

Even if they have the reserves to cast it there is still the matter of its practicality. Conventional mages have easier ways to defend, so there isn't much merit in picking it up. Miyuki for one could easily cast it, but she never does.

[Jirachier]

"A more negative interpretation, and the one I've held for a while, was that it was actually because Tatsuya has such a small calculation area that things turned out that way. Because it takes him a while to construct Magic Sequences, he ends up having to do it very precisely by constructing the bare minimum, unlike the other magicians who just power through the calculations. "

An exceptional magician won't waste his power just because he can, if this strong magicians just decided against doing so Honoka wouldn't have been so amazed by seeing it, she would know that it isn't such a big deal.

As for Gram Demolition Miyuki likes to let her brother show off but she had no way of knowing he was going to intervene or what he was going to do in the first place, that was a situation that required split second decision and there is no way she would've thought that far ahead, if she had it she would've used it, plain and simple. Also the way i see it, until proven otherwise a character only has the abilities that he has shown so far, we can't just assume just because a character is powerful then they have every single possible ability.

"Even if they have the reserves to cast it there is still the matter of its practicality. Conventional mages have easier ways to defend, so there isn't much merit in picking it up."

You guys are saying that in order to use it all you need is to have the reserves of psions for it, if we follow that line of thought then it wouldn't even take them a second to learn how to use it since anyone with the psions reserve can be considered practionners of this move, still it was explicitly said that there is almost no practionners of it, as in there is almost no one who CAN cast it, it didn't say that there is almost no one who can will make use of it.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

An exceptional magician won't waste his power just because he can, if this strong magicians just decided against doing so Honoka wouldn't have been so amazed by seeing it, she would know that it isn't such a big deal.

Who said anything about wasting power? Let me try and use a math example, because we're talking about Tatsuya's magic calculation area. Let's say you want to know the number of marbles in a jar. A brain which can only handle simple calculations will be forced to count the marbles one by one. It's very precise, but it's also slow. In contrast, a more powerful brain might instead do an estimate by counting the number of marbles high and multiply by another estimate of the number of marbles in a horizontal cross section of the jar. And if the jar has an irregular shape, even more estimates have to be made. It's much faster, but the answer is much less precise.

So going back to the Magicians in MKnR, because the Magicians are taught from early on that speed is what is critical (and for the most part, this is true), they power their way through creating magic sequences by doing a rough job, or quick estimates. And Tatsuya, with his abacus-level calculation area, is forced to do everything step-by-step.

As for Gram Demolition Miyuki likes to let her brother show off but she had no way of knowing he was going to intervene or what he was going to do in the first place, that was a situation that required split second decision and there is no way she would've thought that far ahead, if she had it she would've used it, plain and simple.

The book already implies Miyuki knew Tatsuya was going to do it.

Just as Miyuki was about to invoke her magic with the flaming metal hulk bearing down on them......
The rampaging Magic Sequences all disappeared in an instant.
As if waiting for this moment to occur, Miyuki immediately activated her magic.

Miyuki knows even she would have difficulty casting a spell in the middle of all the conflicting magic sequences. However, she's used to working in a team with Tatsuya. So she leaves the magic sequences to Tatsuya, while she takes care of the physical phenomena that Tatsuya cannot (unless he uses Decomposition)

You guys are saying that in order to use it all you need is to have the reserves of psions for it, if we follow that line of thought then it wouldn't even take them a second to learn how to use it since anyone with the psions reserve can be considered practionners of this move, still it was explicitly said that there is almost no practionners of it, as in there is almost no one who CAN cast it, it didn't say that there is almost no one who can will make use of it.

Let's use a real-world example: Even if you can do a karate chop, it doesn't make you a karate practitioner. Same idea.

[silenceblade]

What is the weakness of psion armour beside limited options? Other than non-magic attacks and very powerful magic attack, it seem to be invincible. Of course removing it is an option but very difficult and direct magic attack on the user have no effect.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by silenceblade

What is the weakness of psion armour beside limited options? Other than non-magic attacks and very powerful magic attack, it seem to be invincible. Of course removing it is an option but very difficult and direct magic attack on the user have no effect.

The weakness is that because your magics have to be zero-range, it means you have little options against a sniper with a gun.

[silenceblade]

I meant how to injure the user of psion armour. Except non-magic attacks such affecting the environment there is no way but a huge different in magic abilities.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by silenceblade

I meant how to injure the user of psion armour. Except non-magic attacks and affecting the environment there is no way but a huge different in magic abilities.

That seems like a pretty large weakness if you think about it. The Psion armor only blocks direct magic attacks, but I don't think it has any affect if, say someone were to fire bullets made from frozen nitrogen (like Mayumi's magic), if they were to control the temperature of the environment like Inferno or Nifelheim, or if they used weaponized CADs like Erika and Leo.

[Flere821]

More Vol11 Chinese translation is up:

Spoiler for comment on new stuff:

After the 3rd intelligence division (not sure on the Eng name) backed by the Saegusa took the Parasites away from Mikihiko, Leo and Erika, there's a scene showing Kudou Retsu and his granddaughter Kyouko watching the scene. We've got some interesting tidbits here, such as the Yotsuba are the only family among the Ten Master Clans to have the 'Branch Families' set-up, though Kudou's words suggest the Kudou family might have been a splinter from the Kokonoe clan a long time ago. (either that, or he's remembering his brother who went to the US a long time ago)

Another interesting tidbit was that Saegusa Koichi only got involved in the Parasite incident because he thought Maya had a interest in them, having sent the one of Yotsuba's branch families to eliminate them. Judging from Kudou's words Koichi seems to have a love-hate relationship with Maya, due to what happened 30 year ago he wants to be stronger than the Yotsuba no matter what. The inner Tatsuya+Miyuki shipper in me thinks Koichi is targeting the 101st Battalion and Tats but not Miyuki is because Tats' has a connection to Maya and Miyuki doesn't, but this is pure WMG TL notes snarked Koichi is like a primary school kid who likes to bully the girl he likes, but I'm not sure how reliable this comparison is

Kyouko asks what should they do in response, as they couldn't just allow 3rd division to do as they pleased. Kudou said to leak the info the Maya anonymously and let the Yotsuba take care of things - while fully aware of the irony of how painful it is for Koichi if Maya was the one directly responsible for shutting him down this time.

After Maya got the info and verified it, she sent it towards Libra, who then sent the command to Lina to execute the Parasites 3rd division has stored. The WEB version didn't mention how the USNA had managed to find out about those Parasite's location.

[Chimurry]

Originally Posted by Flere821

More Vol11 Chinese translation is up:

Spoiler for comment on new stuff:

After the 3rd intelligence division (not sure on the Eng name) backed by the Saegusa took the Parasites away from Mikihiko, Leo and Erika, there's a scene showing Kudou Retsu and his granddaughter Kyouko watching the scene. We've got some interesting tidbits here, such as the Yotsuba are the only family among the Ten Master Clans to have the 'Branch Families' set-up, though Kudou's words suggest the Kudou family might have been a splinter from the Kokonoe clan a long time ago. (either that, or he's remembering his brother who went to the US a long time ago)

Another interesting tidbit was that Saegusa Koichi only got involved in the Parasite incident because he thought Maya had a interest in them, having sent the one of Yotsuba's branch families to eliminate them. Judging from Kudou's words Koichi seems to have a love-hate relationship with Maya, due to what happened 30 year ago he wants to be stronger than the Yotsuba no matter what. The inner Tatsuya+Miyuki shipper in me thinks Koichi is targeting the 101st Battalion and Tats but not Miyuki is because Tats' has a connection to Maya and Miyuki doesn't, but this is pure WMG TL notes snarked Koichi is like a primary school kid who likes to bully the girl he likes, but I'm not sure how reliable this comparison is

Kyouko asks what should they do in response, as they couldn't just allow 3rd division to do as they pleased. Kudou said to leak the info the Maya anonymously and let the Yotsuba take care of things - while fully aware of the irony of how painful it is for Koichi if Maya was the one directly responsible for shutting him down this time.

After Maya got the info and verified it, she sent it towards Libra, who then sent the command to Lina to execute the Parasites 3rd division has stored. The WEB version didn't mention how the USNA had managed to find out about those Parasite's location.

So Retsu do a dual band game with Saegusa and Yotsuba?, hope don't get caught in the middle fire, to certain point looks like Koichi just want Maya recognition, We ready known Miya classified Him as coward when only Koichi could escape from the kidnap attack, Who knows?? maybe He doing all this around about just to get Saegusa alliance with Yotsuba with marriage partners included as peace guarantee, lets say Koichi meddling (pseudo truce) with blanche and anti magic factions is a subtle motivation to raise their heads and finally taking actions allow 10 Master Clans take "defensive" suppression.

BTW: THANKS @Flere821 !!!