Hanasaku Iroha (generic discussion thread)

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ninryu

But you can't blame her, can you?

I totally can. Yeah, it sucks that her failure created a slack, but she has no right to lash out at Ohana because she was considerate enough to pick it up.

If I were in Mincchi's place I would rage too.

And you'd be wrong. It'd be different if Ohana had stolen Minko's turn at cooking, but that's not what happened. The fact was the cooking staff didn't have the time to cook for the employees. Maybe Ohana was wrong to expect thanks from Minko (not that we saw her really expecting any), but again, them getting fed was more important than Minko's feelings in the matter.

The way I see it, all Ohana really needs to become a good employee is a reliable senpai to show her the ropes. She's cheerful and hardworking, even if she doesn't have the kind of emotional investment in the inn her grandmother has.

But Minko and Nako? They've both got serious attitude problems. It doesn't matter how good or bad at your actual job you are, if you can't work with others you're a bad employee. They don't have to be friends, but they have to at least be able to talk about the work and not insult each other.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by acejem

I use to think Jun Maeda had the best script writing when it comes to drama, and as much as I liked Kanon and Clannad After Story, I am now sure that his writing pales in comparison to Mari Okada. Jun Maeda tends to jump from slapstick comedy to drama too abruptly at times and his melodrama moments sometimes feel a bit too forced. In contrast, Okada's are more transitional and natural and therefore more believable and relatable. She also imposes what happens impliedly very well, whilst Jun Maeda seems to struggle with this, which was clearly evident in Angel Beats. However, I do acknowledge that because Jun Maeda wrote scripts for Visual Novels, whilst Mari Okada wrote scripts for anime, it may not be perfectly fair to compare. Nonetheless, I'm personally seeing big differences in quality.

I have to say that I very strongly disagree with you here.

There are scenes in Clannad After Story that captures realistic emotional drama in ways more powerful and compelling than what I've seen in any other anime, including this one so far.

That's not to take anything away from this anime, but I think that you're selling Maeda short here.

Furthermore, Clannad After Story felt quite transitional and natural to me, and hence very believable and easy to relate to.

Angel Beats! was a fair bit more choppy, but that's because Maeda is used to writing VNs, not animes, and struggled in trying to adapt to the time restrictions presented by the medium.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to say that I very strongly disagree with you here.

There are scenes in Clannad After Story that captures realistic emotional drama in ways more powerful and compelling than what I've seen in any other anime, including this one so far.

That's not to take anything away from this anime, but I think that you're selling Maeda short here.

Although it does come down to personal opinion and tastes whether you like Jun's style or not, despite me liking Jun Maeda, when it comes to anime, I think he far from perfect. You are perfectly right when saying he can do powerful and compelling drama (the famous Clannad After Story episode 18 for example), and is probably some of the most powerful in terms of oomph. However, in reality a significant of his writing actually composes of quite anime-ish comedy, usually slapstick. About half of Clannad S1, and up until episode 8 of Clannad AS comprised of this, and there would be moments of drama towards an end of an arc for example. Air also had a significant amount, though it did die down by towards the end, whilst Angel Beats was probably the worst offender. This was what I meant by abrupt comedy --> drama, which can often feel quite unnatural.

In addition, his drama/melodrama buildup and moments can feel a bit too exaggerated. In fact, I can liken Jun Maeda's style of tackling drama in similar ways that Koreans tackle the majority of their TV dramas. K-dramas are notorious for almost always having a main character with a terminal illness that gets killed off, with over-melodramatic music playing in the background with lots of crying. I can see the same formula being applied to Jun Maeda's scenarios - we have seen many arcs where you see a girl with an illness or supernatural abnormality who disappears in a melodramatic fashion that is intended to invoke tears. To me, this feels quite forced, but because I've grown up on these type of shows, and thus inherently a sucker for it, think it's great. However, a lot of people do not feel the same. For example, reviewers on ANN have expressly stated that they dislike the "sad girls in the snow" approach in drama that Jun Maeda seems to take. See this podcast from 46:00 onwards for example for views from non-Key fans.

Another thing I like to mention is that personally I don't think I've liked how any of Jun Maeda works ended. I always felt that his endings were weak or cheap (Air, Clannad AS and Angel Beats but particularly Clannad AS).

Mari Okada does not seem have the same problem. Her way of tackling drama seems to more naturally flowing and a significant of it is implied, rather than "explosively" shown like Jun Maeda's is. Never did the drama in say True Tears, Wandering Son and Hanasaku Iroha (so far at least) feel forced, or "suddenly" come out. In my opinion, the best form of drama is one that doesn't force it down your throat, but one that either impliedly portrays it or one that naturally flows to it. This of course, depends on how you like your drama.

Once again though, I would like to acknowledge since Jun Maeda writes scripts for VNs, so it may be unfair to compare it completely, so I'm only comparing it to its applicability to anime. As I have not played all of Key's VNs, it may be very well that his style of script writing fits very well for a visual novel medium.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by acejem

Although it does come down to personal opinion and tastes whether you like Jun's style or not, despite me liking Jun Maeda, when it comes to anime, I think he far from perfect.

I don't think he's perfect, either.

But nor do I think that the writing in this anime is downright perfect.

You are perfectly right when saying he can do powerful and compelling drama (the famous Clannad After Story episode 18 for example), and is probably some of the most powerful in terms of oomph.

Exactly. And for a lot of people, myself included, that's precisely what we're looking for in slice of life animes with a touch of drama and/or romance to them.

However, in reality a significant of his writing actually composes of quite anime-ish comedy, usually slapstick.

True. I myself am not a big fan of this. Some people are though. I don't think that the presence of slapstick comedy, in and of itself, makes a writer's work of less quality.

About half of Clannad S1, and up until episode 8 of Clannad AS comprised of this, and there would be moments of drama towards an end of an arc for example. Air also had a significant amount, though it did die down by towards the end, whilst Angel Beats was probably the worst offender. This was what I meant by abrupt comedy --> drama, which can often feel quite unnatural.

I felt that Clannad and Kanon blended comedy and drama well, but that Angel Beats! largely failed there. But that's a lengthier discussion for another day perhaps.

In addition, his drama/melodrama buildup and moments can feel a bit too exaggerated.

While I respect your view here, it is a matter of personal taste. In my mind, a drama should be, well, dramatic. Even a bit hammy in places. To me, that's the whole fun of a drama. It's also with slight exaggeration that I think dramatic pieces can have the most emotional impact on its viewers. Think of Shakespeare himself, for example.

I can see the same formula being applied to Jun Maeda's scenarios - we have seen many arcs where you see a girl with an illness or supernatural abnormality who disappears in a melodramatic fashion that is intended to invoke tears. To me, this feels quite forced, but because I've grown up on these type of shows, and thus inherently a sucker for it, think it's great. However, a lot of people do not feel the same. For example, reviewers on ANN have expressly stated that they dislike the "sad girls in the snow" approach in drama that Jun Maeda seems to take. See this podcast from 46:00 onwards for example for views from non-Key fans.

Well, even works widely regarded as great works of literature are not beloved by everybody. That doesn't make them any less great, though.

Also, not everybody is fond of Hana-Saku Iroha either (although I myself now am).

The fairly well-known anime blog blogsuki gave a less than flattering review of Episode 1 here.

There's plenty there I disagree with, but I do see some potentially valid criticisms too.

[Reckoner]

I'll also have to echo acejem's sentiments regarding who is the better drama writer... True Tears and Wandering Son are rated higher for me because they were written a lot more clearly and cleanly.

For me personally, there were only 2 or maybe 3, if I push it, poignant moments in Clannad AS. In all the rest of Jun Maeda's animes, I was never left as emotional as one would expect. As acejem pointed out, it is the very unnatural transition from slapstick comedy to sudden drama, Angel Beats being the worst offender, that often left me in the cold.

In contrast, with Mari Okada I almost always feel tension underneath the surface so thick that it's hard to breath. The way she implicitly conveys struggles and drama is really, in my opinion, a touch of class above Jun Maeda.

[taichi-kun]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

The page of the "novel" that Ohana drops has ostensibly been translated. It's pretty incriminating.

For those who must know, her literary counterpart's tango partner is... Nako.

Obviously it's not horrifically graphic, but even so, consider yourself warned before reading. I found it kinda.. icky.

OMG! this is true? what's up with this writter?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I'll also have to echo acejem's sentiments regarding who is the better drama writer... True Tears and Wandering Son are rated higher for me because they were written a lot more clearly and cleanly.

I see no lack of clarity in Clannad: After Story or Kanon. I also see very little in the way of plot holes, and hence they're very "cleanly" written. I find both quite easy to follow, and that the characters in both develop very smoothly and naturally.

For me personally, there were only 2 or maybe 3, if I push it, poignant moments in Clannad AS.

For me personally, there were many poignant moments in Clannad AS, ones more poignant than what I've had from this anime so far.

In contrast, with Mari Okada I almost always feel tension underneath the surface so thick that it's hard to breath. The way she implicitly conveys struggles and drama is really, in my opinion, a touch of class above Jun Maeda.

I see no supposed lack of class in Clannad: After Story. Actually, I find it to be a very classy work.

I also felt plenty of tension underneath the surface in a few later Clannad: After Story episodes.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I see no lack of clarity in Clannad: After Story or Kanon. I also see very little in the way of plot holes, and hence they're very "cleanly" written. I find both quite easy to follow, and that the characters in both develop very smoothly and naturally.

It is hard to argue otherwise that Jun Maeda's writing isn't often bi-polar in nature for the aforementioned reasons made above, sudden transitional slapstick comedy to drama and things like that. That is why I said Okada's writing is clearer, and end up being more clean overall. There aren't so many rough patches where I suddenly have to shift my attention to different details and change my mindset. It isn't about an easy plot to follow... I mean KEY VN's are nowhere near complicated and boast some of the most simple stories there are...

I do feel Okada's writing is more natural, flows and conveys the message appropriately without rough transitions and sudden bursts in tone to any one direction.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

For me personally, there were many poignant moments in Clannad AS, ones more poignant than what I've had from this anime so far.

I see no supposed lack of class in Clannad: After Story. Actually, I find it to be a very classy work.

I also felt plenty of tension underneath the surface in a few later Clannad: After Story works.

I see no need to restate your sentiments here.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

It is hard to argue otherwise that Jun Maeda's writing isn't often bi-polar in nature for the aforementioned reasons made above, sudden transitional slapstick comedy to drama and things like that.

I disagree. It isn't hard to argue otherwise.

Where you see "bi-polar", other viewers see comedy and drama that compliment one another, and feed into each other.

One thing I will say against Okada's writing is that it doesn't make me laugh much, whereas Kanon did.

That is why I said Okada's writing is clearer, and end up being more clean overall.

Well, I disagree. I never felt that my attention was overly divided or taxed while watching any of the Jun Maeda works, except with Angel Beats! to some degree.

I do feel Okada's writing is more natural, flows and conveys the message appropriately without rough transitions and sudden bursts in tone to any one direction.

Maeda's writing feels very natural to me, especially in Kanon and Clannad After Story. I think that Maeda usually conveys his messages well.

From time to time, I like sudden bursts in tone. They break up what otherwise can become a bit monotonous, imo.


Edit: I do want to say here, though, that I do think that Okada is an excellent writer. Her work on True Tears was (mostly) superb (I would have preferred if she had went with a different romantic end, but that's the shipper in me talking ). I also like what I've seen here in Hana-Saku Iroha so far.

I'm mainly aiming to defend Maeda here, a writer that actually moved me to tears. And that's rare for me.

[ninryu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If I was in Minchi's place, I'd glare a bit at Tohru, for his unwelcome comparison, but that would be all. I wouldn't hold it against Ohana, as she was clearly just trying to be helpful.

I definitely think that Minchi has been too harsh towards Ohana.

That being said, I'm willing to view Minchi in a more positive light if her attitude towards Ohana improves at least a little bit.

Originally Posted by Blue-kun

Well, I don't particularly disagree that being angry might, of course, be a big part of why she acts the way she does, but so far (and of course, this will change sooner or later) I particularly don't see the reason why Minko developed this sudden animosity towards Ohana. Sure, she was cutting the rocamboles or whatever they are called, but is that enough to start telling someone else to die? It's as if she feels really insecure about herself and the simple fact that Ohana is now going to live there bothers her. So her "hate" does seem to be completely unjustified, too.

Look, I'm not saying Minchi acted right nor she have a real reason to hate poor Ohana, but I still want you to know where she's coming from. I really don't get her hate toward Ohana as well. To me she looks like a very stressed and frustrated person.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ninryu

Look, I'm not saying Minchi acted right nor she have a real reason to hate poor Ohana, but I still want you to know where she's coming from. I really don't get her hate toward Ohana as well. To me she looks like a very stressed and frustrated person.

At a guess - she's poor, and really has to work for a living despite her age. And she resents Ohana for, well, having had her financial needs taken care of thus far and generally taking for granted she'll be fed, clothed, and sheltered.

[Malkuth]

Jun vs. Mari? Give me a break... Jun (judging by the anime adaptions and Angel Beats) writing is cheap and corny, throwing random jokes to balance things (usually achieving the opposite), and the worst is that he is repeating himself to death. On the other hand, the original works from Mari were also too corny, but not cheap, characters were better fleshed out and humour was used correctly to balance drama, also prevalent in her adaptions.

My main issue with both is that are too conservative, their universes feel too rural filled with peasants who could not finish elementary school... on the other hand, it is hard to write a drama when your characters are mature and rational

[wm4]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

At a guess - she's poor, and really has to work for a living despite her age. And she resents Ohana for, well, having had her financial needs taken care of thus far and generally taking for granted she'll be fed, clothed, and sheltered.

I don't know if Minko is rich or not. Perhaps it is the terms of her internship
(to learn as a chief) that requires her to stay in the dorm. Note that it is
pretty common for Japanese to learn cooking at a really young age (actually,
starting from 13-14, and Minko is a bit late to start with.)

Spoiler for Maybe she was a little bit retarded:

when the leek she grew was pulled by someone the first day she came there.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If I was in Minchi's place, I'd glare a bit at Tohru, for his unwelcome comparison, but that would be all. I wouldn't hold it against Ohana, as she was clearly just trying to be helpful.

I definitely think that Minchi has been too harsh towards Ohana.

That being said, I'm willing to view Minchi in a more positive light if her attitude towards Ohana improves at least a little bit.

I went over this a bit in response to the first episode, but bassically you get the feeling that Minchi feels she can't respond at all to Tohru's berating due to him being in a superior position, age wise and his place in the kitchen (though some theorize that she might also be crushing on Tohru). But Ohana being a new employee around her age makes her seem to Minchi to be a possible outlet for her own frustration (you see this right when Minichi is being harassed by the author, and the first thing she does is let her frustration off on Ohana).


Minchi seems to be less malicious, and more insecure. A truely malicious person would not have been intimidated during Ohana's interrogation regarding the food they hated the most. A maliciousness person would have told Ohana to do something that author-san would have wanted to be around to hear so he could take note. Instead Minchi gets flustered and backs down the second Ohana asserts herself after Minchi gives a disparaging comment. This is an example of the smallest dog barking the loudest.

[Anh_Minh]

It doesn't make her not malicious. Just cowardly. Like a bully who backs down as soon as her victim stands up for herself.

Well, I don't really think of her as "malicious". Then again, it depends what you mean by that. She does tend to take out her frustrations on Ohana. She may be doing it out of weakness rather than actual meanness, but the result's about the same.

[Silverwyrm]

I can see why she snapped, even if I don't agree with it. She gets up early and toils day after day only to be constantly criticized and treated like a useless burden by her senpai.

Then this girl shows up, same one who was pulling her plants and got her in trouble/slapped by the manager only a day before. She cooks the meal that was supposed to be skipped due to her own (Minko's) mistake and the usually ruthless senpai cheerfully says "she may be better at this than you".

As far as Minko is concerned, Ohana is largely a burden as she's done little more than cause trouble up to that point. Yet she's being compared as the inferior suddenly, not to mention at the same job she has been pouring herself into and only receiving harsh treatment. Even if it's not the right thing to do, I can completely understand why Minko snapped at her and got very upset. She feels like the bottom of the totem pole, this new girl shows up and screws up left and right yet she's STILL the bottom.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

At a guess - she's poor, and really has to work for a living despite her age. And she resents Ohana for, well, having had her financial needs taken care of thus far and generally taking for granted she'll be fed, clothed, and sheltered.

I doubt that's the case. She doesn't act this way to the rest of the staff, and at least one of THEM has to have had the bourgeois luxury of a normal upbringing.

The most logical explanation, especially after seeing the 2nd episode, is that Minko is having trouble learning the job she's supposed to do. It's only the 2nd episode and we've already seen her make two mistakes (one being major, that would have had the staff without breakfast*) which resulted in a workplace superior harshly berating her. When the superior gives her a dressing down, she bows, locks up and just repeatably apologizes. The impression I'm getting is that this is happening to her allot.

Her attitude towards Ohana is quite different. And the distinction I think there is, is because Minko perceives Ohana as being lower on the totem pole. Someone who she can deride for her mistakes.

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

I can see why she snapped, even if I don't agree with it. She gets up early and toils day after day only to be constantly criticized and treated like a useless burden by her senpai.

Then this girl shows up, same one who was pulling her plants and got her in trouble/slapped by the manager only a day before. She cooks the meal that was supposed to be skipped due to her own (Minko's) mistake and the usually ruthless senpai cheerfully says "she may be better at this than you".

As far as Minko is concerned, Ohana is largely a burden as she's done little more than cause trouble up to that point. Yet she's being compared as the inferior suddenly, not to mention at the same job she has been pouring herself into and only receiving harsh treatment. Even if it's not the right thing to do, I can completely understand why Minko snapped at her and got very upset. She feels like the bottom of the totem pole, this new girl shows up and screws up left and right yet she's STILL the bottom.

Except Minko had a REALLY bad attitude about Ohana before that incident.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Where you see "bi-polar", other viewers see comedy and drama that compliment one another, and feed into each other.

One thing I will say against Okada's writing is that it doesn't make me laugh much, whereas Kanon did.

Aye, there's so much stuff that I don't know where to start quoting. But yea, I never really saw comedy in Kanon or Clannad to be out of place. Life consists of people fucking around. And sometimes shit does happen. Now, of course, it's hardly perfect, as was horrifically magnified in Angel Beats.

Also, I liked the comment about ham and drama.

Edit: I do want to say here, though, that I do think that Okada is an excellent writer. Her work on True Tears was (mostly) superb (I would have preferred if she had went with a different romantic end, but that's the shipper in me talking ). I also like what I've seen here in Hana-Saku Iroha so far.

I'm mainly aiming to defend Maeda here, a writer that actually moved me to tears. And that's rare for me.

Hmm, truth be told, I only know of 2 animes she wrote for. True Tears and Toradora. I will admit the stories are very well constructed and written, but often times they have some downtime which makes me think of the series as "dull" and I sometimes feel the same way with Hana Saku.

It may be because out of all the categories in all these 3 shows, the only characters I've liked was Ohana and maybe Noe because they feel alive. Every time we talk about someone else I start checking when the episode will end. I'm sorry, all I remember about Shinchiro is "tears", but at least he was not nearly as compulsive as Yorito from Sola and the sky.

It's not completely fair though. I'm just not a huge fan of this genre.

Anyhow, I think Maeda's really good at tugging at this heartstrings, even if he couldn't make a logical conclusion to save his life. It's of course my opinion that Higurashi has completely mastered that formula of casual days into melodrama build order far better than Air/Kanon/Clannad could ever have, but then it's not all about me is it?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

I doubt that's the case. She doesn't act this way to the rest of the staff, and at least one of THEM has to have had the bourgeois luxury of a normal upbringing.

Yeah, but she's not in a position to use them as stress balls the way she's been using Ohana, is she?

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, but she's not in a position to use them as stress balls the way she's been using Ohana, is she?

And that's the point. Minko is in a high stress environment from being at the bottom of the totem poll, and now a new person seemingly comes in whose lower on it than she is.