2011-12-31, 23:14
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Link #6482 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
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I've been thinking
One of the things that Zen says he wants is for Medaka to understand people's hearts and feelings. Someone else brought up the parallel between her and Ajimu. Medaka who loves everyone but just doesn't understand them, and Ajimu who can understand everyone but couldn't care less about them. I'm wondering what'll happen if Zen succeeds, and Medaka learns how to take other people's feelings into account. What would it do, I wonder? Would it make her a better person as now she can try to give people what they want as well as what, she thinks, they need? Or could it backlash. Could learning empathy impact her when she realizes how many things she's done without considering other people's feelings on the matter? I wonder |
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2011-12-31, 23:41
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Link #6483 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Yeah I remember that.
It could go 1 of 3 ways: 1. It makes her a better person on awhole and it would allow her to understand the mind set of normals. 2. It breaks her mind and she mentally breaks down due to her past actions that have caused much grief to individuals. 3. She becomes Ajimu 2.0 and zen becomes hanten 2.0 (something I think was hinted at in 128) We'll have to wait and see what happens. |
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2012-01-01, 01:12
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Link #6485 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Commenting on the 'Unlike justice, love doesn't have to win' saying, I think that she means that if you are in love you can sacrifice your chance with them while still fulfilling what being in love drives you to do... For instance, if you were in love with someone so much that you helped them get the attention of the one they were in love with, you could sacrifice your own chance at a relationship while being in love with that person and doing what your love drove you to do. In this case, your love 'lost' but at the same time you expressed your love (did what it drove you to do). Unlike love, the side justice is on has to win to fulfill its expression. Or if it is a commentary on shounen comics, it might mean that justice always wins in shounen comics, while love doesn't always win. Sometimes it does, but mostly only for the main characters. The supporting characters to the romance generally just act as foils to prove that both of the main characters are desirable (proven by being loved by other people), to provoke jealousy, or to provide a contrast to the main character's relationship. Plenty of those side characters in love end up losing to the romance between the main characters, often tragically and in self-sacrificing ways. Last edited by sungreentakeo; 2012-01-01 at 02:01. |
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2012-01-01, 03:31
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Link #6486 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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To be honest, I'm failing to see the point to Kumagawa's group at this point. It made sense when it seemed that Zen was going to fight Medaka, since the whole thing could have ended up generating bad feelings within the SC and perhaps even in the whole school - Kuma's own duel against Munakata showed things could easily go in a rather serious direction. However, now that Zen has apologised and the things in the SC seem to be running smoothly, is there any point to the NAA any more - other than having Kuma get some focus?
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2012-01-01, 04:33
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Link #6488 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: London, England
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On the other hand you could still say that those two (Medaka and Zen) being against each other in a student council election would mess up the equilibrium of the whole school not just the student council. Quote:
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2012-01-01, 09:12
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Link #6491 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
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2012-01-01, 17:49
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Link #6493 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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2012-01-01, 23:32
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Link #6494 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Quote:
Zenkichi doesn't want to hurt Medaka or even screw up what she's doing (as long as what she is doing is right in his opinion). What he's trying to do isn't as simple as that. But, he isn't trying to act as her subservient subordinate now either. He is trying to do pretty much the same thing she is trying to do, and do it better. That would be the only way to genuinely defeat her on her own turf. Since I have an excuse, let's dig a little deeper into this character. I've recently been doing a lot of thinking about Zenkichi and why he is in love with Medaka. Zenkichi says Medaka is 'right' all the time, so what does that mean about himself? Not everybody thinks Medaka is right. Not everyone wants everybody to be happy or even thinks about things like that. Some people, like Naze (at least before she was reformed), don't even want to be happy themselves. The real reason that Zenkichi thinks Medaka is right must come from himself. In the end, he likes the things that Medaka does. She pulls off stuff he would want to happen (which outside of abnormality are completely unrealistic and impossible), but he knows he couldn't possibly pull off himself. In other words, Medaka is capable of bringing about the ending that he deep down he thinks is best, even if he finds it personally unfair or unsatisfying sometimes (considering the damage some people have done, or how himself or his friends were hurt). That he saw that potential in Medaka might very well be the reason why he loves her. Medaka is crucial to him. He's become extremely attached to her now so it's completely fair to say "He's in love with her and it's as simple as that", but at some point you have to ask the reason why he originally fell in love with her in the first place. It's also interesting to note that this original reason still exists. Which brings up another question.. Why isn't he completely happy with her type of justice? He often seems troubled by it. I've just going out on a limb here, but it might be because of how he connects to other people. Medaka is interested in making everyone in the world happy. Zenkichi would do that given the chance, but he'd like to see the bad guys punished and the good guys rewarded. He values his friends more than his enemies. In order to get 100% behind Medaka's justice, you have to be completely impartial to people, their history, and their actions. You don't have to prove your forgiveness to Medaka. You don't have to repent to her. You don't even have to undo the damage you've done. As soon as you ask for forgiveness, it's over. It's as if everything you had done had never happened. It's really easy to show how this could be unsatisfying. Let's say Kumagawa did something particularly harmful. Kumagawa asks for forgiveness from Medaka. She forgives him. Then he does it again, and then asks for forgiveness again. Wash and repeat. Even if it just happened once, the fact that Kumagawa in this case didn't have to actually repent or fix the damage in some way leaves an unsatisfying aftertaste. He hasn't even changed. Honestly, he probably doesn't even want to be forgiven. Being forgiven probably makes him feel sick. The only way to make him feel better would be to prove that the forgiveness was 'useless work' by doing something else. It's easy to imagine in this scenario that giving Kumagawa a free card would make anyone sympathizing with his victims would bother them. After all, it's natural to value the victims more than the aggressors, and make the aggressors responsible for their actions. It's also natural to sympathize with the victims and understand their feelings. Medaka neither sympathizes with the victims nor values the victims more than the aggressors. They're all equal in her eyes. She dislikes when people are hurt, but that isn't the same as sympathy or understanding. She likes people, but that isn't the same as connecting with anyone or even taking their side. Consider when Medaka 'reformed' Akune. Let's say that Medaka hadn't gotten in the way and both Zenkichi and Akune had fought. Here's what probably would have happened. First of all, at that point Akune was already changing and deep down he was feeling guilty at what he was doing, so at some level he probably would have welcomed being defeated. Zenkichi would have gone on a diatribe about how great Medaka was and how what Akune was doing was wrong, and Akune would have agreed. Then Zenkichi would have sympathized or at least connected with him, and they would have become friends with mutual respect. I think this fits how many of Zenkichi's 'making friends' fights go. Although Zenkichi can't do some things that Medaka can, his conflicts end up with very similar results usually. Although he doesn't really reform them so much as he connects to them and by doing so causes them to change. There are edge cases though due to his limitations combined with his concerns for other people. During his internal monologue, he reveals he wouldn't mind becoming Kumagawa's friend/underling personally, but if he did he wouldn't be able to save anyone else. So, he chose mutual destruction. I think an interesting question to ask though would be, "what would Zenkichi do if he had the unlimited confidence and ability of Medaka?" I also think a very interesting thing here is that Zenkichi prioritized other people over Medaka during that event. Killing Kumagawa would make Medaka unhappy. Zenkichi killing himself would make her unhappy. When analyzing the situation, he doesn't seem concerned about what Medaka would want. He's shown before that he understands Medaka well enough to understand that 'double suicide' would definitely fit under her list of 'things she would hate for people to do.' He seems to be concerned with saving people in general than with protecting Medaka in this case. I thought that was odd in light of his recent character development of "I live for love!". Zenkichi tries to make everything about Medaka, but more often what he does is more telling about himself. He says things like, "I don't want anybody to get hurt, because Medaka will cry." while crying himself, and then he goes on to say things like, "I can't stand it when I see someone suffering like that; I have to do something to help them. (Emukae's final conflict with Zenkichi)" or "I don't care about if I become corrupted; it's more important to me that other people don't become corrupted. (Zenkichi's first fight with Kumagawa)" Before he made that statement about not wanting anybody hurt because Medaka would cry, he was referred to as a 'savior' type person (Chapter 44 - 17) who was always trying to keep people from getting hurt. He justifies that line of logic by saying, "Medaka this, and Medaka that' but really why is he even thinking that way? Akune is far more focused on Medaka in this case than Zenkichi is. Zenkichi even starts talking about the welfare of the entire student body! On the same page, someone mentions to him that looking for help from others never crosses Zenkichi's mind. In other words, if you took Medaka out of the picture then Zenkichi would want to do the things that Medaka does effortlessly, but he knows that he is completely incapable of them. If you think about it that way, it makes perfect sense why Zenkichi is completely infatuated with Medaka. Of course, now he has 13 years of meaningful history (meaningful to him at least) of growing up with Medaka, which is also another very potent reason. Like the original pilot for the series, it's likely that Zenkichi has been in love with Medaka since he was 2 years old. The original reason and a continuing reason he is in love with her is because Medaka is Zenkichi's hero, even if he took a crucial role in creating that 'hero' from the raw material during the very first time he met her. Consider the attitudes towards Zenkichi of all the people who know Zenkichi. Zenkichi has a bunch of friends whom seem genuinely cared for. He accepts people without trying to change them. He seems to get along with anybody who doesn't have a problem with Medaka. He also seems to be hanging out with nearly everyone during the lulls and timeskips of the story. Basically, he's out doing things like that even when Medaka isn't even in the picture. You could even say he does those things more when Medaka isn't around. When you think about it, it becomes pretty obvious that his positive personality and motivations have little to do with Medaka. In fact, the only time he doesn't seem to get along with people is when it's somehow related to Medaka. Zenkichi has always been a person who genuinely cares about and connects with other people. He wants other people to be happy and would prefer to get along with them. Deep down, he's even gotten to the point where he admits that he 'can't say that he doesn't like' Kumagawa (Chapter 126 - 10). He's indirectly saying that he likes -Kumagawa-. He even accepts Kumagawa. He's had that sort of personality trait since he was born. In contrast, it's likely that Medaka's primary flaw is that she can't connect with other people because of her inborn super abnormality. That inability to connect with other people is probably why Medaka actually falling 'in love' with someone is currently the most impossible thing in the world. It's also probably why Zenkichi will need to become as ridiculously 'abnormal' as her in order to get her to fall in love with him. That doesn't necessarily mean he will be 'abnormal' in the same way as her though. Zenkichi wouldn't ever say he wants to "make everyone in the world happy" and he certainly wouldn't think that way (he's a normal person). He also doesn't have Medaka's drive to seek out problems to solve or conflicts to resolve (one of the reasons why he wasn't a good candidate for main character before Ajimu's influence). But if you put him in the right situation and he had to choose then he'd choose to save other people even at the cost of sacrificing himself. A person who connects to and likes everyone would naturally want to make everyone happy. If he were given the chance to make everyone in the world happy, then he would choose to do it. Medaka as a child was looking for a purpose, and he gave her one.... The one that he wanted... Or it might be more fitting to say the purpose that fit his personality. Medaka herself said that he was, "The one that made me." In retrospect, Zenkichi has been shown to have a number of flaws or limitations that have held him back. The one we've been introduced to so far is that he doesn't tell the truth to himself. Well, it might be as simple as he's unintentionally wrong about himself. He doesn't understand himself. Even after all this time, he never figured out that he was 'in love' with Medaka in a romantic way and actually wanted to date her, which was something that just about obvious to any observer. Actually, I'm a little confused by what this new development means because he states that he's in love with her in the first chapter. It seems odd to admit to yourself that you're in love with a woman and not connect 'dating'. I get the weird feeling that the characters are being pulled around by the genre shifts. In any case, the whole lack of understanding himself led to a lack of motivation, and that's one of the traits that are key to becoming an abnormal. It's pretty much certain Ajimu will fix, change or add traits until Zenkichi undergoes some transformation. It'll be a how-to demonstration on creating an 'abnormal' and/or a 'main character' from a normal person/character. The first requirement was apparently motivation. Zenkichi is the best initial test run guinea pig in the world for Ajimu. He's the person who resists change the most. Regardless of the ridiculous trials he's gone through, he's still a 'normal'. If Ajimu can turn him into an abnormal, she could probably turn anybody into an abnormal. It might very well be the case that Zenkichi has every single trait that keeps people from becoming abnormal. It makes you wonder how much of a test case that Zenkichi might have been from the very beginning. After all, Ajimu seems to have had her fingers in the plot from the very beginning of the story, probably even before Zenkichi, Medaka and all the others were born. It's more than a little odd that the most abnormal and changing person and the most normal and unchanging person were stuck together like that. Last edited by sungreentakeo; 2012-01-02 at 09:20. |
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2012-01-02, 09:12
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Link #6497 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Quote:
I wouldn't say that Zenkichi being the hardest person to turn abnormal is neccesarrily correct. He's not that cut and dry which Aijimu learnt first hand. He did not refuse Aijimu's offer for an abnormality and asked for a completely different type than Aijimu was thinking of. Meaning he's not completely indisposed to it. I think the reason why he originally hated it so much was that he was too obsessed with his scenario of a normal guy hard working, working hard to earn the love of an abnomal girl. Once he got over that he started to discover his true self which is most probably that he doesn't care about being an normal beating abnormals, but more of simply doing the impossible while having the odds stacked against you. He's the type of person who willing cranks up the difficulty purely because it's fun. No wonder he fell in love with Medaka because she's the one girl he couldn't have heck the one girl no guy could have. This is most probably the trait he needs in order to get that 100% approval. Everybody has that want to beat someone greater than themselves, minus's, normals, and abnormals the true an unadulterated underdog spirit and everyone has someone above them, except Medaka and it's something she'll never be able to truly understand. On the issue of Aijimu's plan I don't think Aijimu wants to turn Zenkichi into an abnormal I think she wants to turn him into something else entirely. I don't think Medaka is a perfect human, she's simply a perfect being, but she's not human. I think Aijimu thinks Zenkichi can be one howver, as a perfect human can be interpretated as someone that embodies all of humanities traits, their good ones and bad ones, meaning it would also be potenially be able to get along with every human, hence why someone who could simply be able to get every human to choose hiim/her over any other candidate would work. He doesn't need to be the strongest like Medaka isjust a personification of humanity because humanity is not perfect. Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2012-01-02 at 09:31. |
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2012-01-02, 10:38
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Link #6498 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Quote:
If the perfect human doesn't have anything to do with pluses and minus abnormalities, I would wonder why the flask plan did so much research on them... Besides, a part of Medaka's 'The End' abnormality is that she's able to do things that other people cannot do. She could have all the bad traits and good traits and switch off and on whatever parts she wanted. If it were impossible to become the perfect human, then maybe she could do the impossible. But maybe the fact that the flask plan was originally introduced as a plan to turn normals into abnormals is a hint. Maybe it is true that you could only create the 'perfect human' from a normal. I can't figure out off the top of my head why that would make sense. It does make sense that Ajimu would try to create someone who can get along with everyone. I had thought about suggesting that somewhere in my post last night, because Zenkichi's seems to be able to connect with anybody. It also fits with being able to get a 100% vote, especially since he'll also have to convince Medaka to vote for him as well as all the other abnormals. Well, either way achieving 100% is going to require some spectacular event. Well, there is one thing that Zenkichi has that Medaka doesn't.. He understands how it is to be normal. If he started progressing by becoming 'special', then becoming 'abnormal' (plus + minus), and then becoming 'ultra abnormal' (Medaka's level) then he would have an understanding that she can't currently seem to recreate. Besides, there probably isn't anybody who understands better than Zenkichi what it feels like to be a normal person surrounded by 'special' and 'abnormal' people. Or this could be some roundabout way of giving Medaka that ability or turning Medaka into Ajimu's friend or teaching Medaka the experience of defeat. Ajimu's plot twists can be pretty unpredictable. It might be the case that she is trying to set things up for Kumagawa's victory or pleasure so that her seal is released even more. Last edited by sungreentakeo; 2012-01-02 at 10:57. |
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2012-01-02, 13:16
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Link #6499 | ||||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Quote:
I don't disagree with most of your analysis, but you're over-emphasizing various parts of the narrative. Most of Zenkichi's dissatisfaction with Medaka's righteousness does come from the fact that he is selfishly in love with her--this was the major (personal) revelation of chapter 126. As for Zenkichi's limitations, the principle one is exactly that he can't fulfill his own ideals like Medaka can. The very basis of Medaka's righteousness is the desire to help everyone achieve their dreams and become happy, so--despite the fact that those goals came from Zenkichi's words to her--if Zenkichi can't even believe in and chase after his ideals himself, it is obvious they would have differences one day. Quote:
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What do abnormalities have to do with being a Main Character: well, it was emphasized near the beginning of the series that the principle feature of an abnormal is that the universe itself seems to bend in various ways about them. What do minuses have to do with the Flask Plan: well, it was eventually explained that unlike abnormalities (which come from the personality), Minuses originate from a person's environment. Thus, it may be easier to give people abilities by making them Minuses rather than making them Abnormals. Quote:
Shiranui said that Medaka may have been able to get a 98% approval rating even with 100% vote participation. There is no reason not to place weight on that possibility; it is highly premature to assume that Medaka is unable to connect with any portion of humanity (Ajimu stated that Medaka's core support in her election came from the specials. Well, in the period following that election, Medaka managed to connect with and reform not only the former leader of the abnormals, but also the most notorious Minus). In the first place, approximately half of Medaka's original support must have already come from people in the "normal" category. As far as Zenkichi "progressing" through Special, then Abnormal, or whatever; I think you're off-base there. As I said, what Ajimu is truly focused on is being a "Main Character". The Flask Plan's goal is to jump Zenkichi straight into "Main Character" status. (Of interest regarding this in the previous chapter: note that Ajimu mentioned that "popularity" is not necessarily equivalent to being a Main Character, as in the case of popular side-characters like Kumagawa's case.) The idea of Zenkichi "becoming" a Special, an Abnormal, a Minus, etc. is completely unnecessary. At the same time though, you don't need to worry about Ajimu trolling by suddenly aiming just to befriend Medaka or make Kumagawa happy, though. This "Main Character" issue lies at the core of the themes of this story; Ajimu is undoubtedly 100% behind making Zenkichi one in order to displace Medaka. |
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2012-01-02, 15:06
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Link #6500 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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This chapter does explain how Kumagawa became President 3 years ago: People didn't vote for him per se but voted for Ajimu instead. Plus, the voter turnout was probably low. It was mentioned that it took a couple of months for Kumagawa's 0% approval rating to disappear. Makes sense with Medaka's case as well considering the original circumstances surrounding her election and the fact her personality is hard to tolerate.
On the subject on Zenkichi turning into an "Abnormal", he's been showing explicit signs of Abnormality since chapter 30 onwards. Beforehand you had strong hints there was something unusual about him as Kikaijima, Shiranui, and Nekomi attest. He is a similar case as with Naze and Koga, two Abnormals who awakened during their teen years. And at this point he can no longer be considered "Normal" as Ajimu attests. As for whether he is now a Minus, Plus, or even a Not-Equal remains to be seen. (Current evidence suggests he is the probable third Not-Equal Kumagawa foreshadowed but that is conjecture on my part.) Quote:
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| action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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