[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Renall]

Well, it's not difficult:

• Unnecessary: Not required to solve anything. This is true.
• Ridiculous: It is kind of absurd, especially the disguise variant, which is utterly laughable.
• Unreasonable: A reasonable person does not assume that just because two people aren't seen together in front of the narrator, that they are the same person. A paranoid fan of mystery stories and Ryukishi07, perhaps, but not a reasonable reader.
• Requiring Assumption: From the perspective of 1-4, there is no confirmation one way or the other; therefore, any analysis requires an assumption be made as to its truth or falsehood. Assuming it true requires a lot of coping mechanisms. Assuming it false changes almost nothing.

[witchfan]

As to why it is ridiculous, I have reiterated the reasons countless times, and you can dig into my posts if you want to find them (we even had a long-winded argument about this, I recall). As to why it is unnecessary, many people, including me, have proposed an alternate theory (I mentioned mine just a short while ago), and I have yet to see someone point out a blatant flaw in most of them. As to why it requires assumption... I'm not really sure what you're asking here.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

And yet you've been unable to explain in any satisfactory means why Shkanon is "unnecessary and ridiculous", "unreasonable", or "requiring assumption," witchfan.

I'll take this one. It's unnecessary because there are better tricks to use in its place, it's unreasonable because it requires us to assume all characters are idiots, and it requires assumptions because up until episode 6 we had basically no evidence to support it. The only way to arrive at its conclusion was "let's try the most ridiculous theory that gets around red and reminds us of Higurashi in a way!" which is bad reasoning.

If you want to say that there were clues for Shkanon back in episode 1 or 2, like you have said in the past, go ahead. But really those come down to "now that I know the answer I can find evidence to support it." It's like arguing in favor of creationism.

[rogerpepitone]

AuraTwilight: Other than the logic error in Episode 6, what does Shkannon explain that cannot be explained without Shkanon?

In addition:
- Why did Hideyoshi lie about seeing Shannon's body in Episode 1?
- How do you explain "Kanon died in this room." in Episode 2?
- How do you explain the adults seeing both bodies in Episode 3?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

AuraTwilight: Other than the logic error in Episode 6, what does Shkannon explain that cannot be explained without Shkanon?

In addition:
- Why did Hideyoshi lie about seeing Shannon's body in Episode 1?
- How do you explain "Kanon died in this room." in Episode 2?
- How do you explain the adults seeing both bodies in Episode 3?

In fairness, for the reverse we must ask: Where does Kanon keep going?

[rogerpepitone]

Keep going? It's only a problem in Episode 2. In Episodes 1 and 3, his body has a position. In Episode 4, it could have been locked in the chapel, thrown into the woods, or thrown into ocean.

The key to the mystery should answer far more questions than it opens.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

AuraTwilight: Other than the logic error in Episode 6, what does Shkannon explain that cannot be explained without Shkanon?

In addition:
- Why did Hideyoshi lie about seeing Shannon's body in Episode 1?
- How do you explain "Kanon died in this room." in Episode 2?
- How do you explain the adults seeing both bodies in Episode 3?

They can be explained actually but you need to suspend your disbelief in nearly all the cases.

Hideyoshi being bribed or threatened to stay quiet

Name/character shenanigans or something to do with Jessica dying

Switching clothes and running from the parlor to the chapel + fooling everyone twice about actually being alive or bribing all of them to play along.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Keep going? It's only a problem in Episode 2. In Episodes 1 and 3, his body has a position. In Episode 4, it could have been locked in the chapel, thrown into the woods, or thrown into ocean.

The key to the mystery should answer far more questions than it opens.

Sure, you can argue "just because his body wasn't found, it doesn't mean there was no body to be found," but then why is he the only one not found in ep4 by Battler? Nevermind where he is, from a literary standpoint, why is that important?

[witchfan]

For fun: what about the burnt corpse? It's confirmed Kanon died in the room where it was found. And I don't really trust Gold Text. Hrehrwhewhewhehwerr.wav. (I'm not really sure if this solves the problem, mind).

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

AuraTwilight: Other than the logic error in Episode 6, what does Shkannon explain that cannot be explained without Shkanon?

In addition:
- Why did Hideyoshi lie about seeing Shannon's body in Episode 1?
- How do you explain "Kanon died in this room." in Episode 2?
- How do you explain the adults seeing both bodies in Episode 3?

I'd probably answer fake first twilight, fake death and fake first twilight respectively.

I mean, in episode 1, it could be that Kanon returns the favour at the second twilight.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Renall

Sure, you can argue "just because his body wasn't found, it doesn't mean there was no body to be found," but then why is he the only one not found in ep4 by Battler? Nevermind where he is, from a literary standpoint, why is that important?

Ignoring the literary standpoint, allow me to respond from the mystery point of view.

"The whole question of Dagmar Doubledick's guilt," declares the detective, "turns on the kind of necktie he was wearing when we met him that day at Wemmerly Park. Of course you remember it was a green tie?"

To which the honest reader is compelled to answer: "No, I'm damned if I do!"

And then, if he is conscientious, he will turn back through the book to discover whether Dagmar Doubledick's tie really was green. Perhaps he finds this clue, a violet by amossy stone, half hidden somewhere in the dusky recesses of Chapter Six; perhaps he misses the page and does not find it at all. In either case he is left with a vague feeling of dissatisfaction: as though he has been, if not swindled, at least out-talked.

Now it may be argued, and reasonably, that the author here was playing perfectly fair. He was not compelled to repeat it,or even stress it. Thus when the whole solution of Earll Derr Biggers’ Charlie Chan Carries. On is based on the single Word "stuffy," or When Carolyn Wells in The Luminous Face argues guilt from the thesis that no gentleman would wear a wristwatch with evening clothes, these novels are at least technically within the rules.
But the masterpiece of detection is not constructed from "a" clue, or "a" circumstance, or one single inconsistency of any kind. Such methods, dubious enough in a short story, become grotesque when they are applied to a full-length novel. It is too reminiscent of those minute-mysteries, vignettes accompanied by paralytic-looking photographs, with which we are so familar in magazines.

This is why I personally will never accept Umineko's mystery as the masterpiece many fans claim it to be, and why I will never accept Shkanon as a 'clever' solution.

It's just sort of there.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, it's not difficult:

• Unnecessary: Not required to solve anything. This is true.
• Ridiculous: It is kind of absurd, especially the disguise variant, which is utterly laughable.
• Unreasonable: A reasonable person does not assume that just because two people aren't seen together in front of the narrator, that they are the same person. A paranoid fan of mystery stories and Ryukishi07, perhaps, but not a reasonable reader.
• Requiring Assumption: From the perspective of 1-4, there is no confirmation one way or the other; therefore, any analysis requires an assumption be made as to its truth or falsehood. Assuming it true requires a lot of coping mechanisms. Assuming it false changes almost nothing.

* There's more to Umineko than "solving the mystery", though.
* It's not any more ridiculous than "I'm going to prove this witch bitch doesn't exist by arguing and conversing with her personally."
* That's true, but in the context of Umineko in it's entirety, Shkanon does not require any special "assuming."

Really, I keep getting a vibe from people that Shkanon is being blown out of proportion in comparison to other equally valid problems because of an intense personal dislike with it.

As to why it is ridiculous, I have reiterated the reasons countless times, and you can dig into my posts if you want to find them (we even had a long-winded argument about this, I recall). As to why it is unnecessary, many people, including me, have proposed an alternate theory (I mentioned mine just a short while ago), and I have yet to see someone point out a blatant flaw in most of them. As to why it requires assumption... I'm not really sure what you're asking here.

1) Your "ridiculous" accusations have been unsatisfying and rooted entirely in personal emotion from what I've seen.

2) Alternate theories don't mean jack shit if they're not implied or supported by the text. Things like "Double Shkanon where Kanon is a hired bodyguard body-switcher whatever the fuck that will leave with Shannon one way or another" or "Shannon and Kanon never appeared to anyone and Jessica's and George's characterizations are nearly entire fabrications" lack elegance due to being, by their nature, asspulls and fanwanks that are even more flimsy, unnecessary, and unsupported than actual Shkanon.

AuraTwilight: Other than the logic error in Episode 6, what does Shkannon explain that cannot be explained without Shkanon?

In addition:
- Why did Hideyoshi lie about seeing Shannon's body in Episode 1?
- How do you explain "Kanon died in this room." in Episode 2?
- How do you explain the adults seeing both bodies in Episode 3?

It's not my responsibility to answer this: I've never once stated that Shkanon is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING, only that with the entirety of the information given (including EP7 and EP8 and such), it is the most satisfying explanation that is supported by the text. You can MAKE more satisfying explanations, but these will not have any canonical credibility, and thus reek of a bit of a hypocritical vibe to me, personally.

Keep going? It's only a problem in Episode 2. In Episodes 1 and 3, his body has a position. In Episode 4, it could have been locked in the chapel, thrown into the woods, or thrown into ocean.

The key to the mystery should answer far more questions than it opens.

But this doesn't explain things like how Kanon's corpse keeps vanishing into the ether in like every universe wherein Battler never fucking sees it, and why Beatrice or whoever is the Gamemaster deems this a necessary consistent feature of the mystery, unless she is just fucking with us and trying to imply something's up when really it's just some ol' thang.

For fun: what about the burnt corpse? It's confirmed Kanon died in the room where it was found. And I don't really trust Gold Text. Hrehrwhewhewhehwerr.wav. (I'm not really sure if this solves the problem, mind).

Even Bernkastel, the most cynical and critical character in the series, has to yield to Gold Text.

That, and the burnt corpse has six toes and Kanon was alive at the time of the body and...you know, a few feet over. This doesn't even make a good joke theory.

I'd probably answer fake first twilight, fake death and fake first twilight respectively.

I mean, in episode 1, it could be that Kanon returns the favour at the second twilight.

They have stakes in their faces, and George would've noticed if his mom's heart was beating when he shoved his face in her chest (and apparently she was totally fine and keeping perfectly still when he motorboated her?)

Ignoring the literary standpoint, allow me to respond from the mystery point of view.

This is why I sort of appreciate that Ryukishi defined his work as Anti-Fantasy VS Anti-Mystery, and denied vehemently that it was either Mystery or Fantasy. He has a nice copout for not having to adhere to the standards of either genre.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

This is why I sort of appreciate that Ryukishi defined his work as Anti-Fantasy VS Anti-Mystery, and denied vehemently that it was either Mystery or Fantasy. He has a nice copout for not having to adhere to the standards of either genre.

The problem here is that mystery novels already give the author a lot of leeway with explanations and coincidences. The amount of leeway they have is something that authors of any other genre couldn't even dream of pulling off. A fantasy writer for example, couldn't dream of making foreshadowing as hard to understand as a mystery writer frequently does.

"Anti-mystery" is basically Ryuukishi's excuse. You can't create a new genre that is defined by "requiring me not to be as clever as the genre it derives from would require me to with no other differences at all" and expect that excuse to stick.

If I were to create a fantasy sub-genre called Torrent-Fantasy, where I don't explain or describe its setting or beings or even imply they exist saying I want 'the reader to have the chance to create his own world' chances are I'll be either a genius or a moron trying to defend myself from criticism by renaming the genre to fit my poor work.

Anyone with half a brain reading it would go "no, this is just a fantasy book where you left the descriptions out because you were too lazy to think of them."

Anti-mystery is just a really, really poor mystery. It doesn't deserve to be called another genre or treated differently.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

They have stakes in their faces, and George would've noticed if his mom's heart was beating when he shoved his face in her chest (and apparently she was totally fine and keeping perfectly still when he motorboated her?)

Eva dead? Sure.

Hideyoshi, on the other hand... is in exactly the same situation as Shannon. Guess there isn't any need for it, though, since it doesn't line up with Will's solution ("Wasn't really locked").

[witchfan]

Even Bernkastel, the most cynical and critical character in the series, has to yield to Gold Text.

I'm not saying it has no meaning. I am saying it does not mean the 'truth' at face value. It can even mean the 'magical truth', if you want to interpret it that way. "You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic."

Kanon was alive at the time of the body

Okay, prove this and I'll back out.

[victorino123]

Originally Posted by witchfan

For fun: what about the burnt corpse? It's confirmed Kanon died in the room where it was found. And I don't really trust Gold Text. Hrehrwhewhewhehwerr.wav. (I'm not really sure if this solves the problem, mind).

what was the gold truth? I forgot :x

[witchfan]

"You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic."

"I guarantee this corpse belongs to Ushiromiya Kinzo!"


Remember?

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by witchfan

Okay, prove this and I'll back out.

He was like... talking to people and breathing and stuff.

[witchfan]

Beatrice was too, you know. Oh and those goats? Old friends of Kinzo. Remember Kinzo?

I'll give you that he was talking to Battler (the detective extraordinaire who is also a culprit), but Battler also talked with Beatrice in the end of EP4, along with other outrageous things.

[Leafsnail]

I mean as in, the guy was in the room with Erika. And in the first episode, he was in the room with Battler. And in the third episode, he'd have to run off and unburn himself. And in the fourth episode... ok, that one works if Battler assumes Kinzo's body build to be extremely small.