Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[karice67]

As I said, I personally don't care about seeing basic training, or about Hayate not achieving anything against physically superior Windermereans.

And besides, it doesn't belong in this thread.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

However, again, Gramia does not dislike or hold disdain for other races; he is shown to feel grief for their situation (believing they're controlled by NUNS). If Windermere held disdain for other races, their offer to Voldor wouldn't exist.

That is a major part of the pro-Windermere argument that I strongly disagree with.

The only way Windermere truly believe what they believed, is if they had NEVER, not even once, talked to the leadership of the other planets. I am not sure what is more outrageous; believing that they know what the other planets are feeling but never actually talked to any of them, or that they DID talk to the leadership of the other planets, but they came away with the insane impression that these leaders would be happy to have been invaded by Windermere.

How ignorant does Windermere had to be, to think the planets would be happy to be invaded? Wouldn't it make more sense, if they think the planets want more freedom, to help these other planets get their own independence? To cooperate with these other planets? To ALLY with them?

Instead, Windermere thinks the best course of action is to take over these planets with mind control, for their own good.

Are Windermerians mentally deficient?

[karice67]

^ I don't really care for either side of that argument, to be honest, so let me just point the following out.

I think you've jumped a fair few steps in logical reasoning (if that's what you were trying to achieve), because this:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That is a major part of the pro-Windermere argument that I strongly disagree with.

The only way Windermere truly believe what they believed, is if they had NEVER, not even once, talked to the leadership of the other planets. I am not sure what is more outrageous; believing that they know what the other planets are feeling but never actually talked to any of them, or that they DID talk to the leadership of the other planets, but they came away with the insane impression that these leaders would be happy to have been invaded by Windermere.

How ignorant does Windermere had to be, to think the planets would be happy to be invaded? Wouldn't it make more sense, if they think the planets want more freedom, to help these other planets get their own independence? To cooperate with these other planets? To ALLY with them?

Instead, Windermere thinks the best course of action is to take over these planets with mind control, for their own good.

Are Windermerians mentally deficient?

doesn't really address the points being made in this:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

However, again, Gramia does not dislike or hold disdain for other races; he is shown to feel grief for their situation (believing they're controlled by NUNS). If Windermere held disdain for other races, their offer to Voldor wouldn't exist.

It doesn't actually sound like you're talking about the same "beliefs" here. Perhaps you should both specify what you think Windermereans believe--if they can all be argued to believe in exactly the same thing.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That is a major part of the pro-Windermere argument that I strongly disagree with.

The only way Windermere truly believe what they believed, is if they had NEVER, not even once, talked to the leadership of the other planets. I am not sure what is more outrageous; believing that they know what the other planets are feeling but never actually talked to any of them, or that they DID talk to the leadership of the other planets, but they came away with the insane impression that these leaders would be happy to have been invaded by Windermere.

How ignorant does Windermere had to be, to think the planets would be happy to be invaded? Wouldn't it make more sense, if they think the planets want more freedom, to help these other planets get their own independence? To cooperate with these other planets? To ALLY with them?

Instead, Windermere thinks the best course of action is to take over these planets with mind control, for their own good.

Are Windermerians mentally deficient?

Regardless of their actions, Windermere is never shown nor said to hold anger or animosity towards any races other than Earthlings. Basically, their swirl of hatred is for NUNS alone. If they held animosity or hatred for other races, their goal would have been to eliminate them during their mind control.

The problem is: Ones like you arguing this disregard how Gramia and Roid shared different goals for their mind controlling of these planets. I'd argue Roid is the bigger evil of the two because he desires to control the whole galaxy without anyone's say. At least Gramia had a logical goal in mind regardless of its outcome; Roid only desires galactic domination regardless of if it'll kill his own people even... (I'm not even going to address how Roid believes what he's doing will save his people when it's doing the opposite...)

Originally Posted by karice67

doesn't really address the points being made in this:

Ironically, it's even worse because I'm addressing if Windermere is outright shown to hold animosity or hatred for other races which is not based on mind controlling them but is based on their actual feelings for the races themselves. The answer is clearly "no." Their anger for NUNS implies if they held hatred for other races, they'd kill all of them, too. After all, they didn't hold back when eliminating a NUNS fleet in episode 15...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I find it absurd that Windermere think they are doing the invaded planets a favour.

Now, the show itself doesn't tell us this. It is the pro-Windermere posters in this forum who are making this argument. The argument being that the planets are being "liberated" from NUNs control.

The argument is insane.

The first thing anyone would try, when trying to liberate a people, is trying to raise a Resistance group internally. Windermere, if they truly care about liberating planets, would have tried to find allies in these planets before the war started, and organise power transition for them.

The fact that they did not do any of that, suggest that they either 1. Didn't find any allies in those planets, and as such had no grounds for liberation, or 2. They never tried because they never considered what they do as liberation.

[HirouKeimou]

^
Again, you're arguing logic about their actions and not their feelings, which is where our discussion of their animosity towards other races began. They are not shown to hold disdain or animosity towards any other race aside from Earthlings.

And, for another thing, I'm so sick of you titling those of us who see something different in Windermere, "pro-Windermere." I'm tired of you calling us "defenders" like we believe they're doing something right or justified; we're arguing our interpretation of the characters and how they're portrayed; doesn't mean we agree with it!

And if you're going to continue to call us that, I shall begin calling you "pro-NUNS" posters.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

^
Again, you're arguing logic about their actions and not their feelings, which is where our discussion of their animosity towards other races began. They are not shown to hold disdain or animosity towards any other race aside from Earthlings.

And, for another thing, I'm so sick of you titling those of us who see something different in Windermere, "pro-Windermere." I'm tired of you calling us "defenders" like we believe they're doing something right or justified; we're arguing our interpretation of the characters and how they're portrayed; doesn't mean we agree with it!

And if you're going to continue to call us that, I shall begin calling you "pro-NUNS" posters.

Feel free to call me anything you want. I am not the guy who is arguing that feeling is enough to justify declaring war.

Windermere feel a lot of things, but they are also horribly wrong. They can have any feelings they want in private, but once they declared war it is no longer a game.

I wonder, do people not know that people of Fascist Germany and Imperial Japan had serious grievances against world powers too? Do people think WW2 started because the Axis was JUST evil? No, WW2 started because of real feelings. Axis appeared because feelings were hurt. This is fact. I am happy to hear how Windermere was mistreated in this forum, over and over. But I will take a stand and say that Windermere had it easy compared to Germany after WW1, or how Japan got shafted despite being an ally to the Europeans and fought the Germans in WW1.

So many feelings got hurt. Actual lives ruined. Much more than Windermere's problems. Windermere's grievances are pathetically minor.

[HirouKeimou]

You are the one who is pro-war here.

Because we're not discussing how their feelings begun the war and how you misplaced that is beyond me. We're discussing how they personally feel about other races in general, meaning outside of war.

And I'm really not discussing with you.
Because you're failing to realize how much Delta is emulating a real world war even down to its reasoning for beginning a war. In your world, Germans should dominate the whole world because Hitler is justified because his reason is logical. Don't play with me. War is bad regardless of reasons; doesn't mean people don't believe their reason is logical at the time they choose to go through with it. There's a reason people compare the Windermere/NUNS conflict 7 years ago to Pearl Harbor and could compare Roid's conquest to Hitler.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

You are the one who is pro-war here.

Because we're not discussing how their feelings begun the war and how you misplaced that is beyond me. We're discussing how they personally feel about other races in general, meaning outside of war.

And I'm really not discussing with you.
Because you're failing to realize how much Delta is emulating a real world war even down to its reasoning for beginning a war. In your world, Germans should dominate the whole world because Hitler is justified because his reason is logical. Don't play with me. War is bad regardless of reasons; doesn't mean people don't believe their reason is logical at the time they choose to go through with it. There's a reason people compare the Windermere/NUNS conflict 7 years ago to Pearl Harbor and could compare Roid's conquest to Hitler.

I am pointing out that it is crazy to even talk about Windermerian "feelings", because it is well known that their feelings were not able to be used to justify their actions. Windermere is WRONG, about EVERYTHING. And it is entirely pointless to talk about how they feel about things when that requires completely ignoring the feelings of everyone else threatened by the war they started.

NUNs were proven right that Windermere as a people were violent warmongers who are willing to mind control the galaxy, and should never be allowed to have the weapon. Windermere declaring war, retroactively justified why they should have been disarmed. This was similar to how Japan was shafted in not being able to build Battleships after ww1, and them starting the Pacific War justified the treaties that originally seemed unfair at the time.

Windermerians got their feelings hurt, and they decided to start a war over minor issues that could have been dealt with diplomatically. They are bad, stupid, or both. And they will be punished now that they proved NUNs right, for needing to destroy the ruins to begin with.

[HirouKeimou]

Back on target for our discussion:

@karice: From the anime, Windermere is never shown to hold animosity for other races, only Earthlings. The treaty on Voldor solidifies this a little more, because Roid goes in to discuss it and is very civil with him.

Their animosity towards NUNS is shown; however, it's also shown how they dislike (or hate) Earthlings in general because even prior to knowing who Hayate is related to, the Aerial Knights (Bogue especially) shows downright anger towards Hayate who is an Earthling (human from Earth, albeit his planet of birth and race (if he is half of another race) is not discussed once so it's up for debate here).

And Heinz sort of addresses this a bit more in episode 24 while questioning Mirage; he addresses she is Zentradi and says in basic terms that she (as in her race) is not involved (ergo he is not wishing to fight against her kind?).

I don't believe they're xenophobic; I genuinely believe their anger and hatred is directed at NUNS as a military and not its individual races who are involved in their organization. Since NUNS is based from Earth, naturally they hold hatred for Earthlings.

That's all I have for this area of discussion.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I saw one or two person who can be branded as xenophobe. That's either Bogue (whose family got killed by the dimension eater) and the ones behind NUN approving to drop bombs.

So I guess you missed all the talk the Windbags had among each other how they are the superior race, the chosen ones, chosen to lead the other races? And show me a single Windbag outside of Freyja who is welcoming of other people visiting their planet (without bringing huge weapon deliveries or doing a bad bondage job on them).

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

You are the one who is pro-war here.

Because we're not discussing how their feelings begun the war and how you misplaced that is beyond me. We're discussing how they personally feel about other races in general, meaning outside of war.

And I'm really not discussing with you.
Because you're failing to realize how much Delta is emulating a real world war even down to its reasoning for beginning a war. In your world, Germans should dominate the whole world because Hitler is justified because his reason is logical. Don't play with me. War is bad regardless of reasons; doesn't mean people don't believe their reason is logical at the time they choose to go through with it. There's a reason people compare the Windermere/NUNS conflict 7 years ago to Pearl Harbor and could compare Roid's conquest to Hitler.

This argument makes literally no sense at all. Vallen has consistently argued against the Windermerans, who are the ones who started a war of aggression based on racism, eugenics and vengeance. You, together with person-who-is-on-my-ignore-list-now, have been one of the main persons who have consistently argued for Windermeres position, making you the one who is clearly pro-war of agression. You can say all day long that you personally don't agree with Windermere, but you still argue for their right to invade an entire sector of space and try to enslave the entire galaxy. Saying " I don't personally agree with the Nazis, but they were right in invading Poland and France" would make you a pariah on most forums. So I personally think that you might want to think a bit deeper if your arguments for Windermere are not equally abominable as that example statement would be.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Vallen has consistently argued against the Windermerans, who are the ones who started a war of aggression based on racism, eugenics and vengeance.

And is therefore supporting NUNS who began this conflict 7 years prior by their stupidity.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

You, together with person-who-is-on-my-ignore-list-now, have been one of the main persons who have consistently argued for Windermeres position, making you the one who is clearly pro-war of agression. You can say all day long that you personally don't agree with Windermere, but you still argue for their right to invade an entire sector of space and try to enslave the entire galaxy.

I said many a time that I don't personally care because I don't.

Because, at the end of the day, the actions of Windermere and NUNS in the anime literally mirrors real life conflict. Like our discussion now: You could rightfully ignore if people disagree with you or don't grasp your vision but disagreements come of it regardless. And Windermere is on the side which don't agree with NUNS' vision (and vise versa later on, really).

How Windermere goes about their conquest is not justified in our eyes but in their personal opinion, it is. And again, goes back to my argument of "everyone fights for a reason, said reason is not always justified." Regardless, NUNS is foolish because they choose dropping a bomb on Windermere, killing civilians, and maiming their planet all for a silly possibility Windermere might one day grow in power, a power Windermere did not personally care for, all they desired is a longer lifespan and freedom on their own planet. Their animosity for NUNS carrying for 7 years... well, how would you feel if someone murdered your friends or family and destroyed your home or a big piece of your land and said "it's all your fault"? Of course you'd be pissed, you'd desire revenge, because what else do you have with a short lifespan like theirs? You have to think about the next generation and all.

And don't bring Thess into this because I personally don't always share her opinion on Windermere myself, especially on Heinz.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So I personally think that you might want to think a bit deeper if your arguments for Windermere are not equally abominable as that example statement would be.

No, I'm not going to "rethink" anything because you and others take things out of context.

You're all believing we're defending Windermere like it's got no faults but none of you even care about seeing the NUNS side of this at all. You all act like Windermere is the big bad evil and should be eliminated because they did horrible things; they're not the ones who killed civilians on Windermere for avoiding said planet gaining power one day or bombed Ragna with dimensional weapons for information on stupid ruins; they're not the ones whose solution for everything is apparently dropping dimensional bombs on planets because it's "all they have." At least Windermere did things within their power which could potentially not be as damaging for the civilians involved (prior to Roid) and did not kill unless necessary. Don't tell me which side is more justifiable of the two because it's Windermere (again, before Roid).

Claiming we're defending Windermere places you on the side of NUNS.

[magnuskn]

Quite honestly, while I freely acknowledge that NUNS behaved deplorably in Delta, the overall existance of the organization is what allows humanity to even exist anymore. Hence, yeah, I generally stand on their side.

And the point stands that you support the side which is a bunch of racist eugenicists who want to enslave the entire galaxy to get their idea of racial superiority through and who started a war of aggression. That you don't think everything they did was correct is immaterial on the simple fact that you still support them.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Quite honestly, while I freely acknowledge that NUNS behaved deplorably in Delta, the overall existance of the organization is what allows humanity to even exist anymore. Hence, yeah, I generally stand on their side.

And the point stands that you support the side which is a bunch of racist eugenicists who want to enslave the entire galaxy to get their idea of racial superiority through and who started a war of aggression. That you don't think everything they did was correct is immaterial on the simple fact that you still support them.

That's... Pretty much it, basically.
The fact that there's a bunch of evil assholes in the NUNs, given the size of the organization is... a given. Arad even comments on it, at some point, if memory serves. Windermere's a bit more difficult to defend, given that it's central government was responsible for it's own actions.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

That you don't think everything they did was correct is immaterial on the simple fact that you still support them.

Again, I don't support either side here.

Saying you see something is more applicable on one side does not explicitly mean you support them. It's only saying that in their eyes you could perceive yourself reacting in a similar fashion or understanding their logic given their resources or mental capacity, etc.

How many times do I need to repeat my argument of "killing is not justifiable no matter the circumstance" for either side of this? I said it a million times how war is begun for a reason or vision someone once believed in and people followed along because there is either no choice or they perceive it will be a logical vision for the future (a.k.a. believe they'll do something which could help the future without knowing if this logic is justified). This is relevant because you all hold all of Windermere responsible because its military and royalty give its civilians no real choice in the matter. Tell me how its civilians could give their two cents about this war to their leaders who are hellbent on revenge on NUNS for an event likely civilians don't even care about or remember. Holding a whole civilization responsible for acts of less than half its race is really stupid. That's like saying all of Germany is responsible for World War II and Hitler is only the Messenger. However, people here claim it's applicable to eliminate or detain a whole race for the choices of its military and royalty... Yes, the world is a dark, cruel place indeed...

And, on the side of NUNS, for all the bullshit NUNS pulls in Delta, these bastards receive no punishment by their own organization. Where is their court martial for disobeying orders or committing atrocities on planets like Ragna or smuggling illegal weapons? For all the bullshit you all spout about Windermere, at least when Roid goes "off the deep end", the Aerial Knights do something about their corrupted soldier. NUNS sits in a corner and covers it all up and blames it on other races.

[charles883]

Quite honestly, while I freely acknowledge that NUNS behaved deplorably in Delta, the overall existance of the organization is what allows humanity to even exist anymore. Hence, yeah, I generally stand on their side

Which means that you also support Nazi Germany or Apartheidas what you says like "while I freely acknowledge that Nazi/Apartheid behaved deplorably in history, the overall existence of the organization is what allows their nation strong . Hence, yeah, I generally stand on their side'

What kind of sick message is this. They the one who treated local race very badly especially Windermere as if they own the planet despite Windermere independence rules. Also who the one use illegal weapon in 7 years ago and now. Oh wait its NUNS.

The way I look, you are seems to be Nazi supporter better yet Western imperialist supporter which NUNS portray as

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Quite honestly, while I freely acknowledge that NUNS behaved deplorably in Delta, the overall existance of the organization is what allows humanity to even exist anymore. Hence, yeah, I generally stand on their side.

Why not Chaos? There aren't just two sides, you know. More importantly, what led you to the conclusion that NUNS has had anything to do with allowing humanity to still exist? Just because NUNS hasn't destroyed humanity yet doesn't mean they should take credit for its continued existence.

[charles883]

SleepingTerror,you are right as NUNS become more on British Imperalist as NUNS keep treating local badly thinking they are superior race and does not care and keep trampling local race like Ragna and Windermere. Unless magnuskn , you are supporter of Western Imperialist era and support their racist policy to local

[SleepingTerror]

@charles883
Yeah NUNS has just about zero care for the locals.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by charles883

SleepingTerror,you are right as NUNS become more on British Imperalist as NUNS keep treating local badly thinking they are superior race and does not care and keep trampling local race like Ragna and Windermere. Unless magnuskn , you are supporter of Western Imperialist era and support their racist policy to local

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

@charles883
Yeah NUNS has just about zero care for the locals.

What total BS. Seriously. The way some of you people try to shift legitimate criticism of Windermere, to making ridiculously over-the-top criticisms of NUNs, is truly disgusting.

Did NUNs oppress Ragna in any real way? Did its people seem unhappy? Were its local cultures and traditions being trampled upon? No, no, NO.

Anything negative that NUNs did to Ragna, in this anime, was ultimately brought about by Windermere's racial supremacist warmongering. If Windermere never declared war, NUNs would not have dropped any bombs on Ragna. Windermere provided the pretext for some shady guys within NUNs to do what they wanted to do, but without that pretext, Ranga likely remains unharmed.

And frankly, given the extreme threat posed by Windermere to the rest of the galaxy, a strong argument can be made that desperate times call for desperate measures. Or would you rather have had the entire galaxy forever enslaved in Roid's hive-mind?

You don't always get nice, clean, easy choices in life.