Character Discussion - Suzaku

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Wait, when you say G.P. and Darlty, you mean they're in tune or twisted?

If they are twisted, it's a good kind of twisted.

Guilford and Darlton were simply about loyalty and honor to the unit, they couldn't care less about the entire world. Just a couple of soldiers fighting whatever battle their princess tells them to, and defending a place until they think she'll return.

[Gromnir]

go pick up the OED and read the entry for hypocrisy, and no matter how you spin it, suzaku fits the definition in many ways. however, the fact that suzaku is a hypocrite is Not my problem with his character. there are many intriguing hypocrites in fiction. heck, i am a big fan of the Elmer Gantry type character. yeah, some folks who like suzaku keep railing that he isn't a hypocrite and those folks are clearly incorrect, but ultimately that is beside the point.

suzaku... sucks. i know that this is anime, and reality is a tertiary concern at best in anime, but if a character is not believable enough for an audience to empathize with him, then the character will fail.

"wtf"

when suzaku has screen time, i am almost always sub vocalizing the above. nobody could be so naive. nobody could be so self-deluded. nobody could have these ridiculous quasi-religious transformations multiple times in their life. etc. the character... sucks.

it isn't the hypocrisy itself that is a problem. it is the manner in which the character's hypocrisy plays out, because his transformations and ridiculous comments and actions simply carry him beyond the realm of the plausible.

dts

[Dann of Thursday]

I think we're meant to wonder how he could possibly think the way he does early on until the whole reveal about his father. Even that doesn't portray his personality as well as the last picture book does, which is of a highly selfish person who claims to be fighting for morals and such but is really doing it for himself. I am curious to see how he'll be throughout R2 though and whether we'll see any changes.

[Gromnir]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

I think we're meant to wonder how he could possibly think the way he does early on until the whole reveal about his father.

...

I am curious to see how he'll be throughout R2 though and whether we'll see any changes.

i too am curious, and it is indeed true that the character might be fleshed out, grounded and humanized before the eventual conclusion of the series. (unlikely, but possible) however, as he is now, suzaku is simply a wtf.

dts

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Gromnir

go pick up the OED and read the entry for hypocrisy, and no matter how you spin it, suzaku fits the definition in many ways. however, the fact that suzaku is a hypocrite is Not my problem with his character. there are many intriguing hypocrites in fiction. heck, i am a big fan of the Elmer Gantry type character. yeah, some folks who like suzaku keep railing that he isn't a hypocrite and those folks are clearly incorrect, but ultimately that is beside the point.

suzaku... sucks. i know that this is anime, and reality is a tertiary concern at best in anime, but if a character is not believable enough for an audience to empathize with him, then the character will fail.

"wtf"

when suzaku has screen time, i am almost always sub vocalizing the above. nobody could be so naive. nobody could be so self-deluded. nobody could have these ridiculous quasi-religious transformations multiple times in their life. etc. the character... sucks.

it isn't the hypocrisy itself that is a problem. it is the manner in which the character's hypocrisy plays out, because his transformations and ridiculous comments and actions simply carry him beyond the realm of the plausible.

dts

Oh, god forbid a story actually have character development.

I don't know what dictionary you're reading, the oxford one I happen to have defines hypocrisy as: "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense." Last I checked, Suzaku didn't have any morals left to violate.

Now stop talking about Season 1 Suzaku, he's dead, Suzaku's mental state stabilized and he's using whatever means necessary to support Britannia, which he is more or less betting will change something over time, just like Lelouch is betting that destroying Britannia and putting new people in power will change something over time. There's nothing unbelievable or ridiculous or hypocritical about any of that. -_-

[Gromnir]

"Oh, god forbid a story actually have character development."

that was a joke, right? i know that in anime any kind of character development beyond the archetypes is almost unheard of, but the "character development" of suzaku is laughably inept. spastic and contradictory and ridiculous, and it makes empathy next to impossible.

and the only way you can ignore the hypocrisy of suzaku's character is to imagine qualities into him, or to completely ignore him every time he speaks.

btw, the writers do not get a clean-slate for suzaku simply because this is a new season, just as the character doesn't. you are the sum total of all your actions leading up to this moment. the same goes for suzaku's character.

if you get an exam question regarding hamlet and you only speak of him as he is in act 5, what sort of grade do you think the professor will give you?

dts

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Gromnir

suzaku... sucks. i know that this is anime, and reality is a tertiary concern at best in anime, but if a character is not believable enough for an audience to empathize with him, then the character will fail.

He seems to be trying, but he just doesn't have the cashe as a character to be a bada$$ and honestly I think he's just a teddy bear trapped in the body of someone with the power to make a difference...Then you add Yuffie's death and he's now forcing himself to hate Lulu and sell him out because that's what he believes he must do (Not necessarily what he feels he should do IMO)...Suzaku fails because he doesn't have the ability the make the audience sympathize with him, and that's a direct play on the writing for his character...Ya know Lulu (ignoring the charismatic jadedness that makes him cool) OWNS his character..I think alot of people feel like Suzaku has yet to OWN who he is as a character, and that makes him kinda wishy-washy...I can careless about him being a hypocrite though because nearly every character in this show is racing near the finish line to see who's the biggest one...

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Gromnir

"Oh, god forbid a story actually have character development."

that was a joke, right? i know that in anime any kind of character development beyond the archetypes is almost unheard of, but the "character development" of suzaku is laughably inept. spastic and contradictory and ridiculous, and it makes empathy next to impossible.

and the only way you can ignore the hypocrisy of suzaku's character is to imagine qualities into him, or to completely ignore him every time he speaks.

btw, the writers do not get a clean-slate for suzaku simply because this is a new season, just as the character doesn't. you are the sum total of all your actions leading up to this moment. the same goes for suzaku's character.

if you get an exam question regarding hamlet and you only speak of him as he is in act 5, what sort of grade do you think the professor will give you?

dts

-tell me why you think it's spastic contradictory and ridiculous. point out exactly what you've found about it to be so "poorly done".
-He's an antagonist, I'm not surprised there's little to empathize with. Just don't confuse what the lack of empathy is about.

-Imagine qualities into him? I've told you exactly how his actions in 25 to 28 have shown him to no longer be a hypocrite. Evil? A traitor? sure. But no longer a hypocrite. You're the one who's imagining things into the character and ignoring the past 8 episodes.

-even if you want to ignore the fact that this is one continuous story, Suzaku has been developing towards who he is now since 16, and has been in his current mindset since 25. the "new season" has nothing to do with it.

-Hamlet's character development over that play has little to nothing to with Suzaku's character development. The comparison you're trying to make is a gross oversimplification.

[dom33]

Originally Posted by ashlay

Oh, god forbid a story actually have character development.

you are aware who's writing/directing this right?

@WD about the suzaku part but not sure what you mean about the race to see who's the biggest hypocrite part.

[Onizuka-GTO]

yeah, great post WD, but also puzzled. if it's a race you see, okay then. but at the moment it's a one man race, with Suzuku doing timed laps against his personal best....

[wingdarkness]

^My only point is that he isn't the only hypocrite in this show...Don't read too much into it...Earlier the debate was on Suzaku hate based on hypocrisy..

[Gromnir]

Originally Posted by ashlay

-tell me why you think it's spastic contradictory and ridiculous. point out exactly what you've found about it to be so "poorly done".
-He's an antagonist, I'm not surprised there's little to empathize with. Just don't confuse what the lack of empathy is about.

-Imagine qualities into him? I've told you exactly how his actions in 25 to 28 have shown him to no longer be a hypocrite. Evil? A traitor? sure. But no longer a hypocrite. You're the one who's imagining things into the character and ignoring the past 8 episodes.

-even if you want to ignore the fact that this is one continuous story, Suzaku has been developing towards who he is now since 16, and has been in his current mindset since 25. the "new season" has nothing to do with it.

-Hamlet's character development over that play has little to nothing to with Suzaku's character development. The comparison you're trying to make is a gross oversimplification.

1) people have been pointing out for dozens of pages just how much suzaku bothers him due to his "wishy-washy" contradictory. annoying, hypocritical character. go back and peruse. you don't see it? great. nevertheless, such a large % of people being annoyed is a flaw in the writing.

2) being an antagonist has little to nothing to do with empathy. as i noted earlier, the only villains that work sans empathy are either cartoonish or they are the sauron/grendel variety. "because he is evil." "because he is the bad guy." a raison detre that removes all need for rationality or humanity, eh? HA!

3) suzaku has had barely any screen time the past few episodes and yet you are certain about his character. that in itself is a mistake. again, look back at the thread. if so many people disagree, then that is a flaw with the writing.

4) i am not comparing hamlet to suzaku, so there is no an oversimplification. i am saying that you do not ignore the first half of a play as you discuss the strengths or weakness of a character.

btw, this bullet point reply crap is stoopid. you end up ignoring the whole and respond only to specific points. again. suzaku's hypocrisy is not the problem. i already stated that i am a big fan of elmer gantry.

bah.

you can keep trying to convince yourself that the people who don't like the character are not "getting" him, but that is clearly erroneous. we get him. we get that he is a wtf with legs and arms.

dts

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by dom33

you are aware who's writing/directing this right?

@WD about the suzaku part but not sure what you mean about the race to see who's the biggest hypocrite part.

please tell me you're not going to say sunrise. And yes, it's Okouchi and Taniguchi. have you seen any of the other shows Taniguchi directed? There's plenty of character development in pretty much all of them (maybe not GxS, I dunno.)

Originally Posted by Gromnir

btw, this bullet point reply crap is stoopid. you end up ignoring the whole and respond only to specific points. again. suzaku's hypocrisy is not the problem. i already stated that i am a big fan of elmer gantry.

bah.

you can keep trying to convince yourself that the people who don't like the character are not "getting" him, but that is clearly erroneous. we get him. we get that he is a wtf with legs and arms.

dts

uh...then why do you keep saying things like:

annoying, hypocritical character. go back and peruse. you don't see it? great. nevertheless, such a large % of people being annoyed is a flaw in the writing.

and the only way you can ignore the hypocrisy of suzaku's character is to imagine qualities into him, or to completely ignore him every time he speaks.

and how can you say you get him when your only explanation for him is throwing out insults and calling him "wtf with legs and arms." Tell me what exactly he's been doing recently that suggests that. I've at least given you examples of what he's done since 20 to support my points that he's developed as a character into what he is now, you haven't even tried to interpret or explain any of the recent screentime Suzaku has had. I've discussed with all sorts of other people about their thoughts on the character and pointed out why their thoughts are questionable. I want to know what you see right now that makes him contradictory or wishy-washy, whatever you feel like calling it at this point, I don't care. Give me lines or scenes or actions.

If it's just "I don't like the fact he was a hypocritical psychotic for the majority of the first season", just say that, I'm not going to argue you on that point. But don't write off what's happening now. To use your analogy, that's like ignoring the last act of a play completely.

[Gromnir]

"and how can you say you get him when your only explanation for him is throwing out insults and calling him "wtf with legs and arms." Tell me what exactly he's been doing recently that suggests that."

he is still fighting for britania, the oppressors of his nation (one thing the writers have been pretty consistent about is showing just how brutal the britanians are. not that the jingoistic stuff is unexpected, but they do lay it on a bit thick.) he still pretends to be an honorable chap. lay down your arms and i won’t kill you… but then you will probably be executed and i will ignore that fact. and yeah, anybody that commits patricide is going to have a hard time selling the honorable shtick.

But He Has Changed.


so what?

assume that he has changed. ok, that means that he has had yet another life altering change… another wacky and improbable life altering change that occurred seemingly in moments. crap. deus ex machine but for character. “He isn’t the same guy!” what a cheap dodge. you build a character for 20 plus episodes and then suddenly lobotomize him? cheap.

of course, as you can tell from the thread, hardly everybody agrees with you that suzy has changed. so, either you are wrong, or the writers have failed to make clear what you see as obvious.

either way, the Character sucks.

“I want to know what you see right now that makes him contradictory or wishy-washy, whatever you feel like calling it at this point, I don't care. Give me lines or scenes or actions.”

for chrissakes…

it

doesn’t


matter


if I am complaining about the writers handling of the character, my personal observations are far less important than is the impressions of the audience as a whole. if you want to argue for the sake of arguing, be my guest. i don’t see the point.

a friend of mine writes for a crpg developer. one of the recurring complaints he heard a few years back was that the villain from game X was nothing more than the typical evil-mage-gone-mad-with-power. my friend asked me for some feedback, and i admitted that i saw his villain character differently than did much of his audience. nevertheless, if his audience en masse saw nothing other than the evil mage bit, then what i personally thought was beside the point. the proper question was two-fold:

1) does it matter that the audience didn’t get the character?

ultimately the story worked pretty well with a cookie cutter villain, and the game sold millions, so maybe it didn’t matter in his case. maybe you can say something similar about code geas. in spite of the fact that the writers really flubbed with suzaku…

2) if it does matter, what could I have done differently that would have allowed my audience to better empathize with my character.

please keep in mind that empathy does not equal Like. Empathy requires an understanding of motivations and actions, not approval.

you want my personal enumeration of scenes wherein suzy acts bizarre. i, and many others, have already done that, but it ultimately doesn’t matter what i say or how you can rationalize every single action in your own mind. again, that is why the bullet point approach is so flawed; you are missing the bigger picture.


"and how can you say you get him when your only explanation for him is throwing out insults and calling him "wtf with legs and arms." Tell me what exactly he's been doing recently that suggests that."

that part is worth reading again. you are bothered that i am insulting an anime character. do you realize how irrational that is? i have no idea why you are taking slights directed at suzy so personally, but you should be directing your ire at the writers, and not me. if so many people don’t get suzy the way you do, then whose fault is that?

and as for ignoring the last act… i am clearly not doing so, but suzy hasn’t done much lately, and regardless, it would not change who suzaku has been for the majority of the play. macbeth changed, but it isn’t that he was a great character at the start of the play and a terrible one at the end. richard iii was an unpleasant chap from start to finish, but he was a an intriguing character throughout. sure, you don’t develop any compassion for richard until nearly the end of the play, but the character is intriguing regardless of the fact that you don’t like him . suzaku, the character, sucks, i am not speaking of his personality and persona, and maybe that is what you are missing. the fact that you see suzaku as being a completely different character post episode 25 is just one more reason why the character sucks, rather than a valid defense of the character. a sudden and complete change of personality is analogous to deus ex machine, but for character rather than plot. suzaku has experienced 2 personality altering shifts already, and i expect at least 1 more. that alone should be too much for the sudience to swallow.

*snort*

lazy arsed writing at best.

btw, you win. i am finished with this thread at least until suzaku's next 180. you are victorious through attrition if nothing else.

dts

[dom33]

Originally Posted by ashlay

please tell me you're not going to say sunrise. And yes, it's Okouchi and Taniguchi. have you seen any of the other shows Taniguchi directed? There's plenty of character development in pretty much all of them (maybe not GxS, I dunno.)

I meant Taniguchi
examples

Van simply went back to wandering around with no real direction.
Ryuho still fights what he considers evil(different things but still)
Kazuma is still a brute with a heart of gold.
Shirley has had her character reset 2 times.
there was another list on this forum.

@Onizuka I'm making that part of my sig!

[SuperKnuckles]

haha, Gromnir. It's fine if you dislike Suzaku but you should try to stop being so desperate in trying to somehow *prove* that the character is badly written. Don't you get how you being so perturbed by him is basically the whole point? Why the hell would Taniguchi Goro of all people care how the characters rub people a certain way? That's the charm of his directive style that I always enjoy. If he catered to popular opinion (BTW, Suzaku is pretty damn popular in Japan in 2ch, whether it's to hate or love him. Hey, it isn't any different here is it? You can hate Suzaku ALL YOU WANT, but you can't deny the magnetism of his character's themes and ideals no matter how your opinion sways), then the bold direction of the show is compromised. That's just not how Taniguchi Goro does things. And I'm trying not to sound like a fanboy because I think everything he touches turns to gold.

As for Gun X Sword, the story had plenty of twists and turns for characters, albeit most of it seemed to be resolved before changing gradually or anything.

Michael was basically 100% Suzaku. Same "kid pilot with extreme piloting skills" joining the 'bad guys' because he believes a violent/militaristic change to the world is necessary for the greater good. Same with the Clawed Man who changed his mind to destroy and remake the world after seeing so much violence in his youth (Also sorta like Suzaku, though Suzaku didn't totally turn insanely violent and crazy like the Claw Man).

And you know what? I love Suzaku as the character of intrigue. And so did I with Michael and Claw Man.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Superknuckles

As for Gun X Sword, the story had plenty of twists and turns for characters, albeit most of it seemed to be resolved before changing gradually or anything.

Well the thing about Gun X Sword is that it started really brilliant and creative then it somehow found it's way back to cliche'-ally where it pitstops for the final arc of episodes leaving a bit of a bad taste...Sorta how CG Season 1's final ep did with the shot vs. shot finale, and also like the horrible technique of using a reboot in R2 ep 1...So he's already done it thrice, I'd hate to see him do it a fourth time in R2's finale...I'm seeing a pattern here...

[Dann of Thursday]

Hence why I worry about them dropping the ball with R2.

[ashlay]

meh, there's nothing really to suggest it won't be what it's always been so far.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Well the thing about Gun X Sword is that it started really brilliant and creative then it somehow found it's way back to cliche'-ally where it pitstops for the final arc of episodes leaving a bit of a bad taste...Sorta how CG Season 1's final ep did with the shot vs. shot finale, and also like the horrible technique of using a reboot in R2 ep 1...So he's already done it thrice, I'd hate to see him do it a fourth time in R2's finale...I'm seeing a pattern here...

the "reboot" thing is a standard in all the shows Taniguchi's directed: build a protagonist up, cut him down to nothing, build him back up to the highest of heights from there. This is just a halfway point thing, and the story really is just one continuous set of events, a reboot would have happened regardless of this being a second season or not. only the level of references would have changed.

And Gun x Sword was a show that was about robot anime cliches, how the heck does it find it's way back to being cliche when that's exactly what it was in the first place? >_>

You're making this pattern on your own. Though hey, if you don't like what happened in the ending arcs of S-cry-ed, PlanetES, Infinite Ryvius and GxS, you've been given fair warning. That's just the kind of stuff him and his staff makes 'em, though I don't particular think of them as failing in any way myself. 0_o

[wingdarkness]

^
Reboot = Sometimes Fail IMO

Now ep 2 definatley made up for it a bit, but still reboot episodes like in R2 basically tell the audience all the angst, intensity, and spirit they put into last season is a balled-up piece of trash to us now...

As for Gun X Sword I could argue you to the pits of haiti on that front because I disagree with the assertion it started off as just a cliche' of a cliche' but honestly I don't wanna stink up the Suzaku thread with that type of off-topicness...

As for Suzaku, I hope he isn't the baine that once again cheapens the ending of one of this staff's stories...So I do hope you're wrong when you say that's a calling-card that I should expect at the end of R2 aswell (Which coincidentally enuff contradicts your point about me making up a pattern when you just made my point for me)