2013-01-06, 16:42 | Link #6901 | ||||
Banned
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A writer has to establish plot points early. And Thoma's feelings are one big cocked Chekov's Gun. Quote:
And Curren's message wasn't too much of a threat. It was mostly an invitation. She just said that if he waited too long, she might do some kidnapping. And if you'll note right after that, Thoma still feels sympathy for them. Thoma: "I know that well. It's just that I do owe them for giving me a helping hand. I wonder if permission would be granted..." So he's clearly thinking about it, and it proves that Curren is reading Thoma well enough. Also, RF is aware of it: (Can't tell who is talking): "This has clearly become a solicitation. It'll be good if Thoma doesn't feel anymore affection towards them. His sense of morality is a bit unique... It seems he feels he owes them some gratitude." The characters seem to understand Thoma well enough. And if they see it, then I'm forced to conclude it is there as well. Quote:
Now, if we get 5 more chapters mostly devoted to training, I'll begin to have a problem with it. But a page or two per chapter, interspersed with other developments, isn't so bad. |
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2013-01-06, 16:54 | Link #6902 |
Goat Herder
Author
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 37
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As far as potential future plot elements go, it could also turn out that Curren and Veyron were the "book and gunblade duo" like the one flashback implied, and they just don't remember it due to extenuating circumstances. Say they find what they think are the duo and Touma ends up joining them. Then once he's gained the Huckebein's friendship, he finds out the truth and that Curren and Veyron were responsible. What then? Go for revenge, or try to forgive due to the new feelings of friendship and such?
Could be interesting. And it's not without precedent either; we have Chrono and Lindy coexisting peacefully with the Wolkenritter, who were to a degree partially responsible for Clyde's death.
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2013-01-06, 17:00 | Link #6903 | |
Banned
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But it will mean at the end, with Veyron beaten, and Thoma pointing his sword at the man who wiped out his town... and overcoming his dark feelings to get Veyron some help instead of kill him. Or maybe Veyron will kill himself, or someone else will. Lots of interesting potential here. |
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2013-01-06, 17:33 | Link #6904 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Canada
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Isis was basically a big "there is no mystery here, it was all in your head". Nice trolling, Tsuzuki... Lily... Don`t like her much. I can`t see her as more than a device... A plot device. I can find Fifth more interesting with her having faced the same experiments as Lily plus getting beat up by her driver. Getting "saved" by Veyron who told her that there was no god to save her somehow was touching. To me, at least. Just asking, is it that easy to get in and out of a TSAB prison ? One breakin and one break out in the same chapter. After Lucky Luke and the Daltons, you have Nanoha and the Grendels.
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2013-01-06, 17:33 | Link #6905 |
Manus ad Ferrum
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
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I will give that to Force the training is handle better there than StrikerS. I still consider those scenes as unnecessary padding but aren’t that bad and overall harmless.
I still consider Thoma to be way too passive. Is not a matter of what may happen but more of what is he doing? And the short answer to that is: nothing. He might train, and be ready for anything but he lacks passion and shows no interest on learning the truth he was looking before. He just sits there and waits to the others to go and tell him what he wants to know. I mean, if he did use his new “job” on SD6 to search for the truth of his past I will not mind it as much. I only talk about what we see and we really don’t see him doing much, in fact he seems to be having a lot of fun right now and almost forget how much he care in the beginning. And “maybe later” is not always a good answer. I just think that if Thoma was to get rid of the Silver Cross and the Eclipse he will go back home and wait, after all those are the only reasons he still remains with the TSAB. It really doesn’t matter what he does but he needs to do something. Maybe is just that I miss the feeling and rather faster pace the first part of the series had when I compare it to this rather boring office routine they made for the characters when we see them writing reports, cleaning tables, having reunions, serving tea, going to pick people, etc. is no what I call “exiting adventure”
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2013-01-06, 17:49 | Link #6906 | |
The Flame Crussader
Join Date: Aug 2009
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For example, as someone mentioned before, the Wolkenritter have the tendency to treat anyone who do as much as threaten Hayate's life as mortal enemies. Here? not so much.
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2013-01-06, 18:16 | Link #6907 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie
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Him being cool with it is the thing I don't like. Even if he feels grateful to the Hucks as a whole, the first person this woman does when he meets her is threaten him and his friends? At least get a little upset. |
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2013-01-06, 19:03 | Link #6908 | ||
Banned
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Well, not totally. She has her own version of "ridding the world of evil" that she is engaged in, hence her destruction of the fake dividers and people experimenting with the zero gene. At this point, I think she(and the other Hucks) feel Thoma really would be better off with them. His own kind, so to speak. Quote:
In short: Yeah, a part of him knows they are technically criminals and seem to have done bad things, but another part of him is thankful for their help. There's also another part of him that doesn't think he can fit in with a normal family (the imaginary Veyron conversation), so while his dark side is repressed for now, it's not gone. He may go with the Hucks, just because his dark side convinces him that he belongs with an outcast family. I'm sure you've come across many stories where someone went emo claiming, "I have blood on my hands, so I can never be part of something good. I must remain in the shadows and atone for my sins." This is a similar variation to that. Thoma's subconscious is keeping him open to the Hucks as a possible home. And as RF6 noted, he is "morally unique." I'll agree that it isn't something I'd do, but then again, I'm not inflicted with a disease that will make me kill people and amplifies my darkest thoughts. I'd imagine that would have something of an effect on me. |
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2013-01-06, 19:06 | Link #6909 |
The Flame Crussader
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Well, since it was revealed the EC-virus also works to alter the psyche of it's victims (providing yet another convenient excuse to justify the Hucks's behavior xDU) it's probably that imaginary chat with Veyron was induced by the virus itself.
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2013-01-06, 19:22 | Link #6910 |
Banned
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I'm not saying the virus/book/etc had no effect, and I'd be willing to agree that a large part of stuff like that chat were induced by his condition. Then again, humans have had such thoughts naturally, when they sink into depression.
Anyway, the important thing is... that part is still there. Expect it to come up again. Lastly, as a psychology/sociology lesson, we humans love to associate with our own kind. Not just racially, but with countries or sports teams, etc. There is a very primal impulse to join the side most like us and root for it, regardless of what they've done. If I'm a fan from Big City A, and my city has a soccer team, I am going to identify with the soccer team my city has, because it is from my city. Even if that team has a reputation for drunkeness, assault, douchebaggery, etc. Even if the city next to mine has a soccer team that is well-mannered and good sports, I'll still identify with the one from my city. On a subconscious level, Thoma probably feels like he is more Huck than human, hence those lingering pleasantries he feels towards them. We'll probably never know the exact ratio of what is affecting him, but one thing to be damn sure of, is that both the book and his own feelings are in play. Ruling either out, would be folly. |
2013-01-06, 20:35 | Link #6911 |
Manus ad Ferrum
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
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There is only one problem with all that Kaijo. We don’t see it. So far Thoma doesn’t seem to have any trouble fitting in to the SD6 or Subaru’s family. At all. And when you don’t make some room to construct this “conflict” is really nothing that can be use as a plot device to make him join the Hückebein family. And if that were the case I should come up already after 3 months Thoma have been living with SD6. I think that could be nice but as this is going right now will be kind of rush, or I am afraid it will be.
Besides Thoma’s morality is odd. I am still confused by his reaction to Veyron when he apologizes for attacking him on the church. First, while Veyron might not be the one who attack his village (That being said, they never offer any proof and Thoma just take Fortis word for it) Veyron did kill 3 innocent nuns that were not a treat to him. That is bad. That is enough to attack someone. I don't know you guys but I will never apologize to a guy who commits murder in front of me just because he isn’t the murder I am looking for.
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2013-01-06, 20:59 | Link #6912 | ||
Banned
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Thoma is between two worlds at the moment, which is why he feels he can fit in with RF6 and Subaru's family. He was taken in and helped by Subaru, a kind person, whereas the Hucks were helped only by other outcast Hucks. The Huck's themselves realized Thoma could become some sort of liaison. Quote:
Seriously, dude, you've been told he's a strange person. And yet you still complain when he acts strange... despite being pointed out the exact factors that direct his motivation. Just because someone doesn't think like you, doesn't make them a less valid character. You may as well be calling everyone here who doesn't agree with you (and most don't): "strange." |
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2013-01-06, 21:08 | Link #6913 |
The Flame Crussader
Join Date: Aug 2009
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It could be that Tohma is really an amoral person trying to mantain sanity? It won't be the first case of someone having inner murderous impulse but trying to hold on the idea of moral principles. Disgrace hit Tohma at a very young age and spent some time living by himself as a small child, probably his concept of "good" and "evil" (or more specifically what "fair" means) isn't a well cemented as normally rised people.
Sure, he was taken by Subaru and learn't what a kind and functional family is but he himself feels stranged from that scene, sometimes people only follows rules and do the "right" thing not quite conviced at heart but more likely for a desire to fit inside that society. The Hucks rejected society and live their lives doing as they pleases, it's almost hedonistic, and it could be very temptating to Tohma's inner psycho the chance to be part of a family that doesn't try to impose rules on him nor forcing him to be a "good person". Tohma could probably be just a tortured kid that grows up as a mosnter who is constantly deluding himself into believing he's a noble person.
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2013-01-06, 22:06 | Link #6917 |
Manus ad Ferrum
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
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It will but Thoma is a little bland for it. Passive and without passion. To me he doesn't really stands out as he should. And still, why nobody ever address the fact he apologizes to Veyron who kill 3 defenseless nuns? That did happen and Thoma say to him "Sorry I attack you because of a misunderstanding". To me that is always strange.
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2013-01-06, 22:08 | Link #6918 |
Goat Herder
Author
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 37
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So he forgave him for accusing him of a crime he may not actually have committed. Can we please not translate that as "absolving him of all his sins"? Seriously, that's right up there with Aki and his stupidity over Signum's one loss.
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2013-01-06, 22:15 | Link #6919 | |
The Flame Crussader
Join Date: Aug 2009
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2013-01-06, 22:26 | Link #6920 | |
Banned
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This post was actually an incredibly insightful and thoughtful observation. It... brings a tear to my eye, and almost makes me take back everything I may have said about you. Having said that, I don't think Tsuzuki will go that deep, but that's at least closer to what I feel is going on. I don't think he'll become a Kirei(maybe a bit of an Kiritsugu), but he might be tempted to. Hell, Curren might think she is one, feeling she is doing dirty work for a good cause, so the TSAB "white knights" don't have to dirty their hands like this. And Sansker... no, nevermind. No matter what Thoma does or doesn't do, he'll always be bland to you, and he'll always be a problem. There is no situation or condition that would make you think anything of him. He could become a Kotome Kirei or a Kiritsugu Emiya, and you'd still think he was bland. |
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manga, nanoha force |
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