Suisei no Gargantia - generic discussion thread

[Guido]

Originally Posted by Clarste

When I said "silly" I didn't mean it was absurd. I meant it would be pointless. I still don't understand what kind of plot could come out of it that's different from the plot of being stranded on the other side of the galaxy on a world that's presumably spent hundreds or thousands of years developing out of sight. Ledo's culture lost track of the Earth, and now the Earth is different from how they remembered it. Who cares if it's the past or the future? It's still completely different, especially since it's basically confirmed that Ledo's culture abandoned Earth centuries before the present, which means that regardless of when he is it's after his culture forgot about Earth. Which means anything that happens here is completely irrelevant to his civilization on the other side of the galaxy, and we have no sense of that civilizations history or even its current status so there's nothing interesting on that side either, time-travel wise. I guess it also implies that he'll never meet anyone he knows ever again, but he doesn't know anyone (or at least the show has made no attempt to play anything like that up).

There is basically no way that time travel could have any effect on the story, at least not in a way that any of the characters care about. Unless I guess the lightbugs turn out to be the ancestor of the Hideauze and Ledo needs to make a moral decision to exterminate them or not (since the human rely on them), but then again you could make the exact same story by saying they're the larval form or something. It simply makes no difference.

I challenge you naysayers: how exactly could time travel possibly have an effect on this show's plot in a way that couldn't be accounted for without time travel? Be specific.

In my case, I do agree the concept of time travel or space-time travel is used just as a plot device to move the story from the first act to the next one. I don't think that other people should buy into it deeply.

It's the director's choice whether leave that concept as a plot device or make it relevant to the story later.

Simply put, the time/space-time travel already fulfilled its purpose. The theme of this story from what I'm seeing is a boy that unknowingly and unwillingly gets dragged away from his known world in space where mankind must struggle for its very survival against an alien species.
And, he ends up in a planet Earth where the Earhtling mankind live in giant ships and make a living from what best can get from under the sea while also struggling against mankind itself; humans themselves are their worst predator.

Probably is not the main trope, but the boy finding himself in an unfamiliar world, that he only heard about as a historical myth in archives, now must learn how to adapt, to live, and to befriend the people of that world.

[Mubyoshi]

Wow, the second episode has impressed me. I'm getting the same feeling I get from watching Gundam Unicorn when I watched this, which is the feeling of "AWESOME!". I'm also loving the soundtrack so far.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Guido

In my case, I do agree the concept of time travel or space-time travel is used just as a plot device to move the story from the first act to the next one. I don't think that other people should buy into it deeply.

It's the director's choice whether leave that concept as a plot device or make it relevant to the story later.

Simply put, the time/space-time travel already fulfilled its purpose. The theme of this story from what I'm seeing is a boy that unknowingly and unwillingly gets dragged away from his known world in space where mankind must struggle for its very survival against an alien species.
And, he ends up in a planet Earth where the Earhtling mankind live in giant ships and make a living from what best can get from under the sea while also struggling against mankind itself; humans themselves are their worst predator.

Probably is not the main trope, but the boy finding himself in an unfamiliar world, that he only heard about as a historical myth in archives, now must learn how to adapt, to live, and to befriend the people of that world.

But... what part of this is time travel? The distance in space that already exists serves the exact same purpose. The show never mentioned time travel, and if it's already fulfilled its purpose it will never need to. Time travel is irrelevant, and therefore silly.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by Clarste

I challenge you naysayers: how exactly could time travel possibly have an effect on this show's plot in a way that couldn't be accounted for without time travel? Be specific.

If it was the past he was flung into: The lightbugs might potentially be Hideauze ancestors, and Ledo, as you said, could decide to exterminate them to save his future. (and say, to be interesting- They are the only method he could use to go back to present) This is obviously different from how it would otherwise be in the present since destroying their larval forms really doesn't mean anything- Ledo only destroyed what's probably just a small portion of their hatchery and they are still out there, potentially being a threat that could eventually arrive to defenseless Earth with only Ledo in the way. Of course, the Alliance would also be involved if this was the present, and not the past, where they simply wouldn't exist at all. It's completely different and I don't see how you could see this as pointless.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Marly

If it was the past he was flung into: The lightbugs might potentially be Hideauze ancestors, and Ledo, as you said, could decide to exterminate them to save his future. This is obviously different from how it would otherwise be in the present since destroying their larval forms really doesn't mean anything- Ledo only destroyed what's probably just a small portion of their hatchery and they are still out there, potentially being a threat that could eventually arrive to defenseless Earth with only Ledo in the way. Of course, the Alliance would also be involved if this was the present, and not the past, where they simply wouldn't exist at all. It's completely different and I don't see how you could see this as pointless.

The Alliance could also not be involved because he's on the other side of the galaxy in uncharted territory. It doesn't make a difference whether or not the bugs are the ancestors or the larva because the moral choice would still be the same. To exterminate the enemy or to help Gargantia.

Time travel has three key components in any story: distance, foreignness, and causality. The time traveler is far from home, in an unfamiliar environment (or eerily familiar), and their actions can have far-reaching consequences. In this story, he's already impossibly far from home with or without time travel, he's already in foreign environment unlike anything he's encountered, and his actions can't really have any effect on his future/past because he's so far away.

Not to mention we've never even seen Avalon or the daily lives of Alliance soldiers. There's simply no context for his actions to change anything.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by Clarste

The Alliance could also not be involved because he's on the other side of the galaxy in uncharted territory. It doesn't make a difference whether or not the bugs are the ancestors or the larva because the moral choice would still be the same. To exterminate the enemy or to help Gargantia.

Time travel has three key components in any story: distance, foreignness, and causality. The time traveler is far from home, in an unfamiliar environment (or eerily familiar), and their actions can have far-reaching consequences. In this story, he's already impossibly far from home with or without time travel, he's already in foreign environment unlike anything he's encountered, and his actions can't really have any effect on his future/past because he's so far away.

Not to mention we've never even seen Avalon or the daily lives of Alliance soldiers. There's simply no context for his actions to change anything.

How does it not make a difference? He'd be changing the future by exterminating the ancestors of Hideauze. Just because he's far away from home in the future doesn't change the fact that he's there where the source of the problem in the future lies. When time travel is involved, it's less on where he is, and more on when he is- And since he is in the past where the ancestors of Hideauze are located (and at their current state, they probably can't travel from planet to planet- so that would account for every single Hideauze ancestor), it doesn't matter where he is now. Taking the action here will most certainly save his future.

If it was not the past, again- The larvaes become completely inconsequential because there are more Hideauze out there, so that plot detail would become just rather pointless since it would imply Hideauze are all over the galaxy, even in the uncharted areas.

[Guido]

Originally Posted by Clarste

But... what part of this is time travel? The distance in space that already exists serves the exact same purpose. The show never mentioned time travel, and if it's already fulfilled its purpose it will never need to. Time travel is irrelevant, and therefore silly.

Moving from one space to another through the wormhole can be another plausibility.

Though I should be more specific with the context. I wouldn't mean time travel in the traditional sense about moving forward and backward, future to past and viceversa.
Or maybe not time travel at all, but simply Chamber put Ledo in suspended animation as an emergency resort. The voyage it took for Chamber to arrive in the solar system after passing through the other side out of worm hole, and later to crash land in Earth was six months.

It was just the time recorded by Chamber it took to reach their unknown destination.
There's no need to think deep about it; that's irrelevant.

[Clarste]

Save his future? It would destroy his future.

And of course where he is matters, because time travel doesn't matter if you can't see the results. Say he somehow figures all this time travel stuff out (how would that happen, anyway?). He discovers that he can end the Hideauze for good by killing the lightbugs. And then he does, because they're the "enemy". Then what? Gargantia gets pretty pissed at him for destroying their source of energy, and then he has to deal with that.

In the other scenario, he somehow figures out that the lightbugs are larva. He exterminates them because they're the "enemy". Then what? Gargantia gets pretty pissed at him for destroying their source of energy, and then he has to deal with that.

The end result is exactly the same. It literally made no difference to the story. The moral choice is the same too. To follow his programming and kill bugs, or to consider the needs of his new home.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Save his future? It would destroy his future.

And of course where he is matters, because time travel doesn't matter if you can't see the results. Say he somehow figures all this time travel stuff out (how would that happen, anyway?). He discovers that he can end the Hideauze for good by killing the lightbugs. And then he does, because they're the "enemy". Then what? Gargantia gets pretty pissed at him for destroying their source of energy, and then he has to deal with that.

In the other scenario, he somehow figures out that the lightbugs are larva. He exterminates them because they're the "enemy". Then what? Gargantia gets pretty pissed at him for destroying their source of energy, and then he has to deal with that.

The end result is exactly the same. It literally made no difference to the story. The moral choice is the same too. To follow his programming and kill bugs, or to consider the needs of his new home.

You say it would destroy his future, yet you don't explain why. Why, if you want to be technical, I suppose it would 'destroy' it in a sense that his future will be different since Hideauze would have never existed in the first place, and might hinder the technological progress of humanity by quite a bit since the lightbugs would be no more, but he's still effectively saving the humanity in the future from an even greater threat than them lacking power source from the lightbugs.

I also don't get your argument about the 'end result' being 'exactly the same.' All you did was bring up one similar possibility that could happen in either scenario, and just dismiss them as 'exactly the same.' Like, really? Yes, of course Gargantia would be pissed since Leto has destroyed their source of energy- But that's all you're looking at. It's also a moral choice that Leto makes internally- Yes, the change isn't visible since it's something that would ultimately affect something in the future where Leto might or might not be able to return to through some method, but Leto has made a completely different moral decision from what he would make otherwise if it was not the past.

If they were just larvae, why would Leto even consider destroying them when it won't really change a thing? The whole purpose of Leto destroying the lightbugs in the past would be because that would eliminate the threat in the future for good, whereas in the present, it wouldn't do anything and he has no reason to do so at all.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Marly

You say it would destroy his future, yet you don't explain why. Why, if you want to be technical, I suppose it would 'destroy' it in a sense that his future will be different since Hideauze would have never existed in the first place, and might hinder the technological progress of humanity by quite a bit since the lightbugs would be no more, but he's still effectively saving the humanity.

Honestly, all we've seen of humanity in the future is propaganda. There's no particular reason to believe that the Hideauze are really all that bad. More to the point though, without them his society would be completely different, and he himself probably wouldn't have been born. He's spent his entire life in the service of the military, and his entire life fighting bugs. That is his life.

He also mentions wandering tribes, which presumably aren't annihilated by bugs yet, so it's not like the Alliance is all of humanity anyway.

I also don't get your argument about the 'end result' being 'exactly the same.' All you did was bring up one similar possibility that could happen in either scenario, and just dismiss them as 'exactly the same.' Like, really? Yes, of course Gargantia would be pissed since Leto has destroyed their source of energy- But that's all you're looking at. It's also a moral choice that Leto makes internally- Yes, the change isn't visible since it's something that would ultimately affect something in the future where Leto might or might not be able to return to through some method, but Leto has made a completely different moral decision from what he would make otherwise if it was not the past.

If they were just larvae, why would Leto even consider destroying them when it won't really change a thing? The whole purpose of Leto destroying the lightbugs in the past would be because that would eliminate the threat in the future for good, whereas in the present, it wouldn't do anything and he has no reason to do so at all.

It is the same moral decision to him because of how he thinks. That was the point of episode 2. If something is designated as "the enemy" then he destroys it. That's all there it to it, and all there's ever been to his life. Thinking about the fate of humanity is above his pay grade and wholly irrelevant.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Honestly, all we've seen of humanity in the future in propaganda. There's no particular reason to believe that the Hideauze are really all that bad. More to the point though, without them his society would be completely different, and he himself probably wouldn't have been born. He's spent his entire life in the service of the military, and his entire life fighting bugs. That is his life. He also mentions wandering tribes, which presumably aren't annihilated by bugs yet, so it's not like the Alliance is all of humanity anyway.

Yes, effectively it could also cause him to be erased since he is from the future himself- But that's also the part of the moral decision. He would be sacrificing himself to give the humanity a brighter future. Furthermore, it was implied in the first episode that the wandering tribes had a rather primitive technology in comparison to the Alliance's, so it's not like they stand a chance against Hideauze at all if they are as aggressive as they're implied to be. While there is no reason to believe that the Hideauze are really 'all that bad,' I don't see how that has anything to do with this. That's like dismissing this argument as pointless because we don't know much about the world yet, but that's the whole point of this argument- To speculate. I don't even know why you brought that up, to be honest.

Originally Posted by Clarste

It is the same moral decision to him because of how he thinks. That was the point of episode 2. If something is designated as "the enemy" then he destroys it. That's all there it to it, and all there's ever been to his life. Thinking about the fate of humanity is above his pay grade and wholly irrelevant.

There's something called character development that you obviously missed out on. It's quite possible that his hardened militaristic views will be changed through his interaction with the residents of Earth not as a soldier, but as a regular person. He's not a robot like Chamber. EDIT: Which is why I also believe that Chamber would serve as a nice character to illustrate this change in views- Since Chamber's a robot, his logical/programmed views wouldn't change, so it would naturally diverge bit by bit as Ledo actually gets character development.

[Triple_R]

Ledo is first and foremost a practical soldier. He has become aligned with humans that are willing and eager to negotiate with him (at least this is the impression he's getting from Amy). These humans have enemies called "pirates". These pirates were attacking those he was negotiating with, and so the "Envoy" (Amy) asked for Ledo's assistance in combating them.

Pragmatically speaking, the wisest course of action here is crystal clear (at least it is when you have absolutely overwhelming force on your side) - Meet the Envoy's request, as completely and smoothly as possible. Taking prisoners out of the enemy ranks complicates matters, and may in fact be an approach that's completely alien to Ledo (as all of Ledo's enemies are basically assumed to be beings you can't negotiate with, so they must be eliminated).

Morally speaking, the humans Ledo has met up with have at least shown a willingness to negotiate and have done so with a certain degree of friendship (i.e. offering Ledo food). There's no particular reason for Ledo to suspect that Amy's enemies are the more "just" side of the conflict - If anything, Ledo would have some reason to think that Amy's enemies are the less just side of the conflict (i.e. Amy and her people have shown a willingness to engage in careful, friendly negotiation; Amy's enemies are the aggressors here).

Taking all of the above into account, I don't find Ledo's actions here particularly problematic. However, I hope they will be a good source of conflict in episodes to come.

"You can't just go killing people so casually like that, even if they are enemies!" - I hope that somebody, ideally Amy herself, voices this line (or something close to it) to Ledo, forcing him to make deeper moral considerations when it comes to the field of combat.


In any event, this has been a fantastic anime so far. Very, very smooth. Quite effective storytelling. Amy, Ledo, and Ledo's mecha are all excellent characters, and I look forward to more interaction between them.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"You can't just go killing people so casually like that, even if they are enemies!" - I hope that somebody, ideally Amy herself, voices this line (or something close to it) to Ledo, forcing him to make deeper moral considerations when it comes to the field of combat.

Judging by blond mechanic's proposed course of action, I don't think they're very into taking prisoners either (the logistics problems are obvious, and resources are scarce). And what's the alternative, release the pirates so they can attack again another day?

I think they were just shocked at Chambers' capabilities, rather than brutality. The difference between the mechanic and the leaders' mindset is the same as between Chambers and Ledo: the formers are more focused on the immediate problem, while the latters have a broader view and long-term plans. But they're all willing to get bloody if it becomes... not just necessary. Pragmatic would do it.

[.Mero]

I don't think Amy expected this level of force from Ledo and Chamber.

Right now Chamber is the black ship of power, as it stands now, the Leaders of Gargantia will be after Chambers tech more then ever, probably at the cost of Ledo's life if possible, but also with more caution because they know what it can do.

There will be no praise when he gets back, only fear for the most part at least.

[MeoTwister5]

There's actually one thing I want Urobutchi to do: I actually want him to maintain the language barrier between Amy and Ledo. Ledo is an obvious alien to the world, and in most other shows you'd have the main character either already speak the same language or suddenly learn it quickly.

It would be a very different and maybe ballsy move for him to keep the language barrier there, keeping a certain level of disconnected tension between Amy and Ledo despite the two of them growing closer. In this end Chambers if their only communication bridge, so imagine what would happen if something happened to Chambers...

[zztop]

I researched details on Gargantia's music composer, Taro Iwashiro.

He's got a pretty accomplished pedigree, having composed for movies and some anime alike.

Famous commissions include his composition of the soundtrack for John Woo's 2008 China historical epic, Red Cliff Pt. 1&2,

Images

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and 2012's Rurouni Kenshin movie.


His composition for Gargantia sounds quite similar to his work for Red Cliff. In particular:
EP 1: Compare OST during Ledo's intro, wormhole jump and alien battle scene to this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFos7j34L08

EP 1 : Compare OST during Amy's kidnapping scene to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH3qp...96F1D3&index=7

Whew, that was a lot!ヾ(￣0￣ )ノ Enjoy, and feel free to comment!!

[Raviel]

I just watched the first two eps and I have to say the setting is pretty fascinating to say the least. I don't know if it's just me but the art style somehow prevents me from fully feeling how bad humanity's situation is; not that the art style diminishes my enjoyment of the show (on the contrary I really like how the setting looks), it just feels weird because one side of my brain tells me "humanity is in some pretty deep ****" while the other side says "ooohhh look at the pretty colors and girls".

For one reason or the other the art seems to alleviate the depression/despair that comes with an Urobuchi production, I mean right from the start we get the Allliance putting all it has to defeat the Hideauze and utterly failing to do so and yet I feel perfectly fine aftewards

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Judging by blond mechanic's proposed course of action, I don't think they're very into taking prisoners either (the logistics problems are obvious, and resources are scarce). And what's the alternative, release the pirates so they can attack again another day?

Good points, which may have factored into Ledo's actions as well.

To be clear, I was mostly defending Ledo's actions here. I don't think they make him overly brutal.

However, I do see some potential for compelling moral conflict here, and it might be interesting if the narrative explored that. But it doesn't have to, of course.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

There's actually one thing I want Urobutchi to do: I actually want him to maintain the language barrier between Amy and Ledo. Ledo is an obvious alien to the world, and in most other shows you'd have the main character either already speak the same language or suddenly learn it quickly.

It would be a very different and maybe ballsy move for him to keep the language barrier there, keeping a certain level of disconnected tension between Amy and Ledo despite the two of them growing closer. In this end Chambers if their only communication bridge, so imagine what would happen if something happened to Chambers...

Good idea. I'd like for Chambers to be a good translator, but for Ledo and Amy to not learn each other's languages. Then one day something happens to Chambers, and these two people who have become friendly with each other are suddenly unable to communicate easily through spoken words. Seeing them try to improvise and struggle to understand each other could be interesting.

Originally Posted by Raviel

I just watched the first two eps and I have to say the setting is pretty fascinating to say the least. I don't know if it's just me but the art style somehow prevents me from fully feeling how bad humanity's situation is;

I don't think that "bleak dystopia" is the vibe we're supposed to be getting here. Yes, humanity's situation certainly isn't all that great in this narrative, but many of our protagonists are a rather plucky and generally upbeat lot that are certainly making the most of it.


I want to make a caution here - I want to caution those who expect this show to become uber-dark and depressing just because Gen Urobuchi is part of the writing staff. It's not inconceivable that Urobuchi is growing as a writer, and can write more than just "dark" material. And even if his tendencies/limitations as a writer haven't changed, his role here is more limited compared to most of his previous anime works.

While I don't doubt there will be some significant character death in this show (this I feel simply because it's a serious-minded mecha show), I also don't get the impression that this will be a show focused primarily on "grimdark".

One element I find suggestive here - The way those pirates were obliterated was downright pretty. It's like the complete opposite of how death-by-Dominator looks in Psycho-Pass (extremely gorey and bloody).

If this show was aiming for grim-dark, I doubt its first "widespread death" scene would involve people turning into what looks like sparkling water vapor. It's as sterilized a death scene as you can get.

I think we should be prepared for the possibility that this narrative represents a considerable departure from Urobuchi's well-known style. And if so, I think that's great. Isn't it good to see a good writer grow and expand his horizons, and show that he's capable of writing more than just one tonal type of narrative?

[Raviel]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't think that "bleak dystopia" is the vibe we're supposed to be getting here. Yes, humanity's situation certainly isn't all that great in this narrative, but many of our protagonists are a rather plucky and generally upbeat lot that are certainly making the most of it.


I want to make a caution here - I want to caution those who expect this show to become uber-dark and depressing just because Gen Urobuchi is part of the writing staff. It's not inconceivable that Urobuchi is growing as a writer, and can write more than just "dark" material. And even if his tendencies/limitations as a writer haven't changed, his role here is more limited compared to most of his previous anime works.

While I don't doubt there will be some significant character death in this show (this I feel simply because it's a serious-minded mecha show), I also don't get the impression that this will be a show focused primarily on "grimdark".

One element I find suggestive here - The way those pirates were obliterated was downright pretty. It's like the complete opposite of how death-by-Dominator looks in Psycho-Pass (extremely gorey and bloody).

If this show was aiming for grim-dark, I doubt its first "widespread death" scene would involve people turning into what looks like sparkling water vapor. It's as sterilized a death scene as you can get.

I think we should be prepared for the possibility that this narrative represents a considerable departure from Urobuchi's well-known style. And if so, I think that's great. Isn't it good to see a good writer grow and expand his horizons, and show that he's capable of writing more than just one tonal type of narrative?

I guess I'm just too used to Urobuchi's other works, after going through Fate/Zero, Madoka, and reading about Saya no Uta, I've learned to expect that things aren't going end well for most of the cast if Urobuchi is involved (though you could argue that for F/Z you already know how it ends before anything even happens). With that said I'm still holding my breath, hopefully this is a departure from his usual style and we won't have something like Earth getting caught between the Hideauze and the Aliiance later on.

Also, now that you mention it the way the pirates died was kind of pretty, hell it's probably one of the prettiest deaths by laser I've ever seen (not to mention its a pretty clever way of working around the gore ).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Raviel

I guess I'm just too used to Urobuchi's other works, after going through Fate/Zero, Madoka, and reading about Saya no Uta, I've learned to expect that things aren't going end well for most of the cast if Urobuchi is involved (though you could argue that for F/Z you already know how it ends before anything even happens).

Urobuchi's reputation for grimdark is certainly well-earned. So I can understand people expecting that with works that have his name attached to them. But this anime is giving me the impression of a significant departure here.

Tonally, this show is reminding me a bit of Eureka 7. However, I like the characters in this show more than I did those in Eureka 7, so that's a plus.