StarCraft 2

[amasposu]

Yesterday had many memorable games. <:

- iNcontroL vs. BoxeR - You got to love BoxeR.
- IdrA vs. CrunCher - Idra cracks me up with his BM. I don't mind his BM as long as he actually wins.
- IdrA vs. SjoW
- MVP vs. GanZi - Excellent back and forth action.
- White-Ra vs. Drewbie - White-Ra wins his 10th BO3 of the day.
- Choya vs. Jinro - Only game 1. Game 2 and 3 are anti-climatic.

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Good question. Good force fields tho. But yea sentries are so damned strong for early units and maybe force field lasts too long.

But the other issue which is kinda the real one as you've brought up before is that Terran production late game is utter shit; maybe they need to bring in the tech reactors from the campaign.

As my cousin remarked "How would you feel if you instantly lost because I built a supply depot near your base? HURRR"

As it is, if your first attack fails to kill P you might as well just ragequit and uninstall the game. Same effect.

They were talking about the tech reactor in the official forums, and I do agree that T's late game is fked compared to Z and P, you have to ball up and pray in large engagements that you do not lose your army, otherwise you basically lost the game. With the strength of collosus and infestors, it's impossible to not trade armies with a P or Z, making T late game utter crap.

As for the tech reactor, someone suggested that it should be researched on fusion core, cost 200/200 to prevent rushing it. Each Tech reactor should cost 100/100 as well.

I think the research should be around 250/250, and the tech reactors 100/100, simply because dual factory tech reactors would be 4 thors at once, that's pretty OP...or 4 banshees, 4 ravens...OMG THE PDDs ~_~

[Archon_Wing]

Sounds like a good idea, having the tech at fusion core would confine it to late game.

[Ithekro]

Or what about that rebuilding Thors tech, where you can autorepair a downed Thor in the field?

Or make the Terran endgame unit (the Battlecruiser) worth it. I've seen it used very rarely in anything except TvT. I've seen in used once in TvZ at endgame, and it was basically luck cause the Terran get out a couple of BCs just before the Ultralisks showed up...and while Ultras have really thick armor...they can't do anything to BCs.

I've see TvT were BC is used to try to break a 30 minute stand off, and I've seen it used as a rush unit (and proxy rush unit) in TvT to end the game in 10 minutes...one way or the other.

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Or what about that rebuilding Thors tech, where you can autorepair a downed Thor in the field?

Or make the Terran endgame unit (the Battlecruiser) worth it. I've seen it used very rarely in anything except TvT. I've seen in used once in TvZ at endgame, and it was basically luck cause the Terran get out a couple of BCs just before the Ultralisks showed up...and while Ultras have really thick armor...they can't do anything to BCs.

I've see TvT were BC is used to try to break a 30 minute stand off, and I've seen it used as a rush unit (and proxy rush unit) in TvT to end the game in 10 minutes...one way or the other.

BC is just as useless as Ultras and Carriers, SC2 tier 3 are all trash.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by HurricaneHige

BC is just as useless as Ultras and Carriers, SC2 tier 3 are all trash.

Except Broodlords, which are a must in lategame ZvP or ZvT if you wish to break the "impenetrable" Terran siege line/Protoss Deathball.

[Who]

Story of Anaheim:

[Flying Dagger]

Back in GSL season 1, I think it was oGsTheWind that fought and lost against a Terran with the repairian build: TvP 1 base quick BC+some marine marauder+scv repair. Played vs an offrace cella on NA whom tried to pull the same build vs my toss.

I was able to scout quick gas before probe got chased away and I originally suspected it to be a banshee open: thus I opened 1 gate robo into 3 gate expo. Battlecruisers with their innate high armor+hp can kill quite a number of stalkers, esp with bio support: I was caught off guard.

White-ra sometimes throws own a fleet beacon after a stargate expand and start making carriers. They are decent vs hydras. While it might just be another special taktik to entertain his stream viewers, it is surprisingly effective even at the GM level.

Thors/colossus are considered t3, they are insanely useful in all matchups.

I have seen some ultralisk play in ZvP. Ultralisk gets countered by almost anything terran makes (even thors).


David Kim chatted with the Slayers team on game balance (and I suspect he would talk to the other pros as well). I wouldn't be surprise to see "something done" about hellions directly/indirectly (recall the reaper nerf for TvZ that followed IEM? People defended it saying how its "just a new style"/"just get another queen and some spines"/"better creep spread").

I think the roach speed upgrade should be removed with speed rolled into the unit.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Flying Dagger

I think the roach speed upgrade should be removed with speed rolled into the unit.

Bad idea imo. Roaches are already cost effective against stalkers and speed-upgraded roaches actually move faster than stalkers even off-creep. This would give protoss players an incredibly hard time to hold off roach pressure in the early game.


I honestly think BF hellions are fine. They are just seriously equivalent to BW reaver drops and I remember Terran players QQing in BW about how an unlucky reaver scarab can kill like 10+ scvs as well. People just need to adapt to it which they will.

Also, the real reason for nerfing reaper speed was that 2v2 reaper/ling combo was broken and an autowin against any team that had a protoss player.

[brocko]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

...I honestly think BF hellions are fine. They are just seriously equivalent to BW reaver drops and I remember Terran players QQing in BW about how an unlucky reaver scarab can kill like 10+ scvs as well. People just need to adapt to it which they will...

Bad analogy imo. Reaver drops were pretty expensive to get up and running and required good reaver-shuttle control to be effective.

[Archon_Wing]

Once upon a time, there was a unit similar to the helion.

They were cheaper, only slightly more than a marine, and with a cheap upgrade could create the equivalent of 3 cloaked banelings.

They had a speed upgrade too! You could take out infinity zerglings with these. With these combination of these mines and the unit, you could even take out small amounts of anything, including tanks!

A single mishap, a single mine in the mineral line could result in the instant destruction of one's probes. Protoss were dead instantly if they failed to get observers promptly. In fact Protoss frequently went robo just for observers.

With proper micro they were cost effective against far more than light.

Overpowered obv.

There was also another unit that was similar. It was slower and required gas. But it could use stim packs and be healed by a medic!

Tl;DR: overpowered units always do not make the race overpowered. In sc1, you can pwn a slightly worse player just with 11 mutalisks. That doesn't make them overpowered, does it?

[Who]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Once upon a time, there was a unit similar to the helion.

They were cheaper, only slightly more than a marine, and with a cheap upgrade could create the equivalent of 3 cloaked banelings.

They had a speed upgrade too! You could take out infinity zerglings with these. With these combination of these mines and the unit, you could even take out small amounts of anything, including tanks!

A single mishap, a single mine in the mineral line could result in the instant destruction of one's probes. Protoss were dead instantly if they failed to get observers promptly. In fact Protoss frequently went robo just for observers.

I thought hovering units like workers didn't trigger mine explosions.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Who

I thought hovering units like workers didn't trigger mine explosions.

Except the majority of units that can actually fight vultures do trigger mines, and what else are you gonna send if you want your mineral line back?

[Flying Dagger]

Dragoons!
Spidermines take a second to burrow and a second to popout and activate =D

Vultures are not "as game changing". They get inside your base and can snipe a few workers and lay some mines. Hellions, due to their AoE nature, can roast a LOT more lings/workers/marines than a group of vultures. In this hellion-heavy MLG 4 hellions have managed to just massacre 50% of workers in matter of seconds (rmb game 2 MVP v MMA?). SC2 bases feel a lot bigger so you have more room to run around and kite.

Getting spidermines/thrusters upgrades require a machine shop (tech dedication): hellions require only a techlab (which can then be reused by many buildings). Hellions can be reacted, while vultures are made 1 at a time...



FF kills roaches.

[Archon_Wing]

What? Vultures were and are game changing. I already brought up the example of the spider mine explosion. It's fairly easy to happen if you're not careful and dragoons w/o observers aren't in small numbers aren't that great against vultures with mine.

It forces a certain tech path and there is the possibility of insta-loss if you're not careful.

Not to mention that virtually every TvP sc1 game has more vultures than any other unit. They are just are invaluable as banelings are against terran. And this has been true for many many years, so it's not just any gimmick.

They are way more flexible, because they may not be as godly worker killers as helions, they are still great in actual combat and harassment.

[Who]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Except the majority of units that can actually fight vultures do trigger mines, and what else are you gonna send if you want your mineral line back?

Probes. If they want to mine, they'll have to earn the right to use those mineral patches by proving their worth.

/Protoss hate.

[Archon_Wing]

Anyhow, pretty much every new strategy that has success has been deemed omgomg that's impossible to stop, so I am skeptical at the very least.

There's no doubt it's a very strong strat, but we can't just nerf every strat as it pops up with out proper testing. If people start winning GSLs undefeated several times in a row, it's time to think. But one can't just run over to Blizzard right away.

Thus far, I just see that Boxer and co have come up with a new strategy and caught the other koreans off guard while stomping on some non-Korean trash. It's not the most indicative of all things.

When it comes to balance debates, the most common mistake is to have tunnel vision, of which we all have to some degree.

tl;dr It's not always Blizzard's fault

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by HurricaneHige

BC is just as useless as Ultras and Carriers, SC2 tier 3 are all trash.

T3 are mainly breaker units. Ultras can break an entrenched position so easily it's not even fun anymore. BC can turn the tide in a tank stalemate extremely quickly. I don't really have that much experience to say anything about carriers but I do know that they're extremely annoying even in small numbers.

They do have their uses.

[Ithekro]

Carriers are used to break a Terran that has mass marauders and tanks. Four is usually enough to break it for the ground forces to clean up afterwards.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by brocko

Bad analogy imo. Reaver drops were pretty expensive to get up and running and required good reaver-shuttle control to be effective.

As is blue flame hellions.

Reaver requires Gateway --> Core --> Robotics Bay --> Robotics support bay. Needs both a shuttle and reaver to be effective.

Hellion requires Barracks --> Factory --> Tech Lab --> Blue flame upgrade. Needs a medivac to be effective generally, so also add in a starport to the mix (which is 150/100)

People forget BF research is 150/150 (and likely the 150/100 for the starport too). That's a significant investment and if you don't do damage you're behind. Reavers are also very nice for sniping isolated tanks or defending against a hydra bust.

Hellions are trash in actual combat. Did you know marines do more DPS against light units than hellions do except against possibly zerglings. Marines are also much better in the lategame because you will be upgrading infantry weapons and armor almost every game, whilst mech upgrades is varied (usually for TvZ, but never for TvP).

Players just need to adapt. In BW, Terrans learnt to build a few turrets + put a siege tank at both their main base and natural which makes the reaver harassment really risky, and if the reaver or shuttle is lost without killing at least 10+ scvs, protoss has pretty much lost.

Players in SC2 need to do the same. Soooo many people are skimping on static defence and they are paying dear for it. Put 1-2 spine crawlers with a queen or two photon cannons at ur main base and natural. There, you just made the hellion harassment very risky. Also, another mistake a lot of players do is to run their workers away in a straight line... lol at that. Hellions attack in a straight line...

Say the terran player decides to suicide his hellions into your static defense for like 10+ workers. Ok... you are slightly behind economically (if they expanded behind it, which they should), but they probably have no units at home because they teched. So just go f*&@king kill him (using Day9's words). If you see a lot of units at his base... that means he's 1 base all-ining. Then you're not behind at all.


People need to relax on omg nerf this nerf that. When Nada first turtled a to 200/200 terran mech army... it was considered unbeatable for protoss. Then Protoss players discovered how to use arbiters with their statis ability. When Julyzerg first "invented" mutalisk stacking in SC1, it was considered overpowered. Then terrans figured out science vessels raped mutalisks. When MC first used the 6 gate push against zerg with bazillion forcefields, it was considered overpowered. Now Zergs are have learnt research roach burrow.

And the most gamechanging one. For the longest time, Zerg's thought that Protoss was unbeatable because the Protoss Sentry/Stalker/Collosi/Voidray deathball. Now Zerg's have realised that you be trading armies much earlier, like how a MMM ball should which stands little chance against a Protoss lategame ball too. Alternatively the ling/roach/baneling drop/infestor composition is gaining huge popularity in Korea which effectively shuts down Protoss deathball play.

Metagame changes happen all the time. I have yet to see a two GSLs or tourney won consecutively because of an OP unit or combination (cept the Protoss Collosi/Voidray deathball which took a long time to figure out, but is now very seldomly seen in the pro scene, thus is not considered overpowered anymore).

If you want to talk about something that's broken, then talk about Terran lategame production and instant reinforcing anywhere on the map via warpgates. Terran lategame being terrible and protoss lategame being too powerful has been a complaint forever now. There also seems to be talk of infestors being too strong in the lategame for a while now because fungal growth = better version of storm and also can be cast instantly as fester pops due to energy upgrade, but even that's skeptical to be changed.