Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Hm, wasn't Tomitake given the pathogen as an injection?

Tomitake is injected with H173, a compound that causes the pathogen to go out of control and sends the patient almost immediately at L5. It won't have an effect on someone who isn't a carrier.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Going back to Takano-obfuscates-everything mode, I figured the paving over of the swamp was primarily a red herring either left by the government to give the public the sense that the matter had been dealt with, and thus left as a plot device to confuse the reader/viewer into buying more into Takano's "theories", plus perhaps a number of bodies and evidence was disposed of there. But if there is some connection between the pathogen and the swamp, then I'm inclined to believe that there could still remain some natural or supernatural connection to the Hannyu/Ouka story that hasn't been puzzled out yet.

That's actually a pretty good idea. I thought there might be a link between the syndrome and the swamp because the latter was filled in, but perhaps the real reason the Yamainu filled it with cement is because they dumped all the corpses of the people they murdered without the use of gas there and wanted to make sure nobody would ever find them. After all, the swamp has traditionally been used to dump corpses in and Takano would probably enjoy upholding that tradition. To be honest I think that this theory for the filling in of Onigafuchi is more likely than there being a connection between it and the syndrome.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

In the end, the mixed natural-supernatual explaination may be the only possible answer left.

I think you are overanalyzing things. Just because a real pathogen can't behave in such a manner doesn't mean that a fictional pathogen has to be restricted in the same way. Ryukishi07 doesn't provide almost any information regarding the pathogen's life cycle or mode of transmission. I think this is intentional since he realizes that it's pretty much impossible to have such a pathogen sound realistic and thus chooses to gloss over the details; just as he glosses over the fact that Hanyuu never bothers to spy on Tomitake and Takano on the night of the Watanagashi ritual. As a result I think that since Ryukishi07 provides no evidence of a supernatural origin for the syndrome, he intends the pathogen to be natural but quite simply has to have it behave in a non-realistic manner to fit the plot. I don't believe its behavior alone is enough to justify believing in a supernatural origin for it.

[ganbaru]

This talk about the pathogene ( source, realism etc...) is going for how much day?
Who know, maybe even Ryukishi07 did'nt fixed his mind on thoses points, we could be arguing about answer than do not exist.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

This talk about the pathogene ( source, realism etc...) is going for how much day?
Who know, maybe even Ryukishi07 did'nt fixed his mind on thoses points, we could be arguing about answer than do not exist.

It's a discussion, not an arguement.... And technically, this matter's been discussed as part of the mystery well before this latest string of posts, so rather than days, you might ask how many months (years?) it has been....

Actually I think a lot of interesting insights have come out of this, and it's cleared up a lot of areas that were murkier before (at least for me!). I think the point has already been made that Ryukishi07 may well have left some things open deliberately, but the key to unravelling the mystery is identifying and corroborating which facts and clues he has left in the work.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

It's a discussion, not an arguement.... And technically, this matter's been discussed as part of the mystery well before this latest string of posts, so rather than days, you might ask how many months (years?) it has been....

Actually I think a lot of interesting insights have come out of this, and it's cleared up a lot of areas that were murkier before (at least for me!). I think the point has already been made that Ryukishi07 may well have left some things open deliberately, but the key to unravelling the mystery is identifying and corroborating which facts and clues he has left in the work.

Sorry for the little error, and I must say than I agree with you ; this discussion is quite enjoyable and lots of interestings thing came out of it, but the fact remain than the answer might not exist/being selected by Ryukishi07.

[Ayu-ayu]

Agreed, too. Yay, now it's a mutual consensus, lol.

Ah, changing gears a little, what should we make of Hanyuu's original incarnation? What exactly is she? A human born with horns? It's a rather strange abberation to say the least and seems almost as supernatural as the rest of her later existence. Are there any clues here or is this the limit of how far back we can go?

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Ah, changing gears a little, what should we make of Hanyuu's original incarnation? What exactly is she? A human born with horns? It's a rather strange abberation to say the least and seems almost as supernatural as the rest of her later existence. Are there any clues here or is this the limit of how far back we can go?

She's a demon who was killed by her own daughter

[Proto]

Hmm... but is it accepted that she is a demon per se, or is that just how she is brandished?

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Proto

Hmm... but is it accepted that she is a demon per se, or is that just how she is brandished?

IIRC It's not made clear

[Ithekro]

A really cute demon at that.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

IIRC It's not made clear

I thought it was fairly clear from the dialog that "oni" (demon, ogre, take your pick) was what she was dubbed *because* she had horns on her head, not the other way around. I don't think "because she was an oni" really answers the larger question as to what is the reason for her oni-like appearance--was she actually one, or just identified as one because of her appearance? If she was indeed one, were there more? Does the existence of one or more oni in turn validate some of the supernatural causes and Hinamizawa/Onigafuchi lore we've discussed? Is it correlation or coincidence?

Of course, Hanyuu's continued existence as a god is supernatural, is it much a stretch to assume her pre-death existence as supernatural as well? As I lean toward naturalistic explanations, I'm a little puzzled how to view this part of the mystery.

[Kets]

Im just wondering, but why was Keiichi screaming at the end of the Sevens Mart tips?

[Klashikari]

We will obviously never know exactly, he broke big time, though I would assume that he saw "something like Rena" or Rena herself.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Kets

Im just wondering, but why was Keiichi screaming at the end of the Sevens Mart tips?

My guess is that he saw Hanyuu but altered in a way to fit with his paranoid delusions, just as Rena when she sees what she thinks is an alien following her in Tsumihoboroshi-hen. Since he's afraid of Rena it may well have been an image of her.

[Kets]

Hmm, I guess that makes sense.

I have another question. With the The Great Hinamizawa Disaster Casualties List, what do they mean by "Accident during evacuation of the Great Hinamizawa Disaster" under Chie? And why did Shion commit suicide?

[Ithekro]

Possibly they were outside what would be considered the "dead zone" so their deaths to thr Great Disaster woudn't fit the actual deaths. I would think these would be people that couldn't be rounded up, or resisted. Shion would fight if she was in town. Otherwise she would be depressed, having lost everyone she has ever cared about and much (if not all) of her family. Chie probably would resist....especially if they caught her eating curry.

I wonder how many (if any) military/special forces guys got killed or wounded during this event?

[Rias]

While they never really explained it, "accident/missing" probably means they didn't die by the gas. Minagoroshi-hen has shown that some people tried to escape the school after being round up, and were shot. So, the principle, being the martial arts master, and Chie, who was secretly sent by the Burial Agency, probably were among the people who sensed something was wrong and tried to escape.

As for Shion suicide...it's very likely diguised by an inside job, just like the others who survived the disaster but knew enough about the village (Keiichi/Kasai/Mion/Satoko in various arcs). I don't think Shion would suicide becuase of losing her family and friends, mainly due to her personality and attitude towards the people in the casulity list. (Well, there IS Mion and Kasai...but I have the feeling that she would rather go find out the truth behind the incident instead of getting depressed and commit suicide)

[ganbaru]

I am not sure than we can say tha Shion would be fine if Hinamizawa would dissapear.
Even if she feel like a outsider, she is a outsider from Hinamizawa, that is a part of her.

[Rias]

Thinking about it some more:

Now assuming Shion who suicided is Shion, not Mion (Mion probably has more reason to suicide), and having the pre-Meakashi-hen mentaility, we know that she
- Moved to Okinomiya with her family before elementary school. Spent her elementary school days in Okinomiya, but probably spent some time with the club memebers by posing as Mion.
- Moved to St.Lucia Academy in S56 for 1/2 years.
-"Frieightingly cold" by Mion (okay, we know that she can also be very caring for others)
-"Not good at controlling her own emotion" by Rika. Easily excited, somewhat emotionally unstable in S58
-At least L3? Easily sensed a presence and heard footsteps in Watanagashi/Meakashi.

After the disaster, she would've only lost Mion and Kasai. Maybe she's got a thing for Keiichi, but Satoshi should take over in her mind when that happens. Since people in Okinomiya are fine, her parents most likely survived. She also didn't care for Oryou at that time. However, seeing her personality, I would say she probably she went out to poke around for the truth, or learned something from Keichi/Kasai and tried to confront something/something and got "suicided".

Of course, it's all speculation, but I find it hard to believe for someone like her to have suicided. She didn't suicide when Satoshi disappeared, after all; she went out to poke around for the truth, then went on a rampage.

[Ithekro]

Unless of course she had remembered Satoshi's request and was doing it from time to time. She would have failed to take care of Satoko. Also anyone see would have considered to have has any knowledge on Satoshi would now be dead, right?

But her "suicide" depends on when and where. It also could be that she did start snooping, and was "silenced". Or she arrived back in town before the reports were out (or because of thr reports, but before the operation was finished...."boom".

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

I am not sure than we can say tha Shion would be fine if Hinamizawa would dissapear.
Even if she feel like a outsider, she is a outsider from Hinamizawa, that is a part of her.

In Yoigoshi-hen she manages quite well for herself after the disaster and even tries to regain control of the Sonozaki group after its leadership gets usurped by a different faction. Her being assassinated in Tatarigoroshi-hen seems fairly plausible. But then again characters do react differently in different worlds.