Ore no Imouto - General Discussion

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by omimon

Check out the author's receding hairline

and check out the awesome Index from another camera angle:

Spoiler:

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by taofd

To be honest, I feel this show is largely in part, a huge ploy to justify the Otaku subculture.

It's fairly obvious that this is a big part of what the anime is aiming for. It's not quite outright propaganda (it treats its subject material with enough sincerity to avoid that), but a major goal for this anime is probably to cast the Otaku subculture in a more positive light.

Given the target audience for this, and the simple fact that it's an anime, this is probably to be expected. I mean, it would be like a Spiderman comic book with a story about comic book fans being ostracized for their hobbies, or a video game about gamers being ostracized for their hobbies. It's pretty obvious where the fictional work is going to come down on such a subject.

Truthfully, I'm pleasantly surprised that this anime is as intellectually honest as it is, as the desire to cast your own target audience in a positive light makes for a very vested interest indeed. I appreciate that it presents otakus as they actually tend to be (I don't mean as it pertains to Kirino's harsh treatment of her brother, which has nothing to do with being an otaku, but rather just how passionate she is about her hobby), and doesn't try to deny or sugercoat that.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's fairly obvious that this is a big part of what the anime is aiming for. It's not quite outright propaganda (it treats its subject material with enough sincerity to avoid that), but a major goal for this anime is probably to cast the Otaku subculture in a more positive light.

Given the target audience for this, and the simple fact that it's an anime, this is probably to be expected. I mean, it would be like a Spiderman comic book with a story about comic book fans being ostracized for their hobbies, or a video game about gamers being ostracized for their hobbies. It's pretty obvious where the fictional work is going to come down on such a subject.

Truthfully, I'm pleasantly surprised that this anime is as intellectually honest as it is, as the desire to cast your own target audience in a positive light makes for a very vested interest indeed. I appreciate that it presents otakus as they actually tend to be (I don't mean as it pertains to Kirino's harsh treatment of her brother, which has nothing to do with being an otaku, but rather just how passionate she is about her hobby), and doesn't try to deny or sugercoat that.

Yeah, I agree. I think there is nothing wrong with having any intellectual hobby, as long as it doesn't negatively impact another individual in a reasonable manner. In that regard, I have no qualm with the message their trying to convey. My main concern is how they're conveying Otaku (and by extension, all other fans of related works) as socially dysfunctional. Moreover, I'm just upset that, while this work had a lot of potential in exploring new ground in an intellectual defense against anti-otaku sentiments, they had to dilute it with ecchi humor and questionable content. Well, if the anime adaptation is loyal to the original work, I guess it's not really the anime's fault... :/

I sincerely hope that this doesn't turn Kiss x Sis.

Edit: Err, in response to the "Justifying Otaku sub-culture part"-- it just feels weird; they seem to be eager to justify both the good and the bad, which IMO completely destroys the legitimacy of their argument. For example, their Dad (Gendou ftw) is completely right. Regardless of whether or not he believes the media, there is a reason that R-17 labels are on those games. Any good parent could not and WOULD not knowingly condone a middle-schooler being exposed to those kinds of questionable influences.

[technomo12]

Originally Posted by ZeKeR

a treat for Saintess....

Spoiler for AzuRino:

HEH.... like THESE two?

you sire have made my loli blood over flow in me god SOOO MUCH CANDY

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by taofd

Yeah, I agree. I think there is nothing wrong with having any intellectual hobby, as long as it doesn't negatively impact another individual in a reasonable manner. In that regard, I have no qualm with the message their trying to convey. My main concern is how they're conveying Otaku (and by extension, all other fans of related works) as socially dysfunctional.

I don't get the sense that Otaku are being conveyed as socially dysfunctional, at least not especially so.

Kirino herself certainly isn't portrayed that way, as she clearly is very popular at school, very successful at virtually everything that she does, and has many strong friendships.

Remember that most of the nameless girls that were seen at that girl otaku get-together back in episode 2, dressed and acted pretty normally. It's just that the two girls that Kirino ended up making friends with were probably the two most unusual girls there.

Moreover, I'm just upset that, while this work had a lot of potential in exploring new ground in an intellectual defense against anti-otaku sentiments, they had to dilute it with ecchi humor and questionable content.

You could be right.

Well, if the anime adaptation is loyal to the original work, I guess it's not really the anime's fault... :/

Well, from what I've been told, the more ecchi bits of the two latest episodes were anime original add-ons, so whatever a person thinks of them probably shouldn't reflect on what that person thinks of the source material.

I sincerely hope that this doesn't turn Kiss x Sis.

Edit: Err, in response to the "Justifying Otaku sub-culture part"-- it just feels weird; they seem to be eager to justify both the good and the bad, which IMO completely destroys the legitimacy of their argument. For example, their Dad (Gendou ftw) is completely right. Regardless of whether or not he believes the media, there is a reason that R-17 labels are on those games. Any good parent could not and WOULD not knowingly condone a middle-schooler being exposed to those kinds of questionable influences.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Part of me wishes that Kyousuke had gone along with his father's desire to remove the R-17 material from Kirino's collection (Kirino herself made it clear that she has "all ages" versions of at least some games).

The point of this anime might have been better conveyed if we were dealing with an adult otaku defending his or her hobby (that would negate any age-appropriate issues)... but then, that would also make for probably a less comedic or visual appealing anime.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, from what I've been told, the more ecchi bits of the two latest episodes were anime original add-ons, so whatever a person thinks of them probably shouldn't reflect on what that person thinks of the source material.

I'm not sure about that; edited/"enhanced" maybe but... for example.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm inclined to agree with you. Part of me wishes that Kyousuke had gone along with his father's desire to remove the R-17 material from Kirino's collection (Kirino herself made it clear that she has "all ages" versions of at least some games).

Seriously? And exactly what good would that do at this point? She's already been exposed to the material, and already spent thousands of dollars acquiring it. Is removing the material now going to restore her innocence, moral purity and a "rightful sense of propriety"? Is it going to "teach her a lesson" about following society's rules? Is it going to make her a better person?

Kirino is who she is, and this is already a part of her character -- "distasteful" material and all. As you alluded to yourself, it's not as if she's doing anything wrong in her life -- she's living responsibly, doing well in school, and even holding down a well-paying job at her age. If exposure to this sort of material were going to "corrupt her character", that corruption would already be there anyway. Taking away even the 18+ material at this point isn't going to make anything better, and will only cause her to be resentful of her parents for their legalistic views, not to mention pissed as hell at having all that expensive merchandise basically stolen from her. The fact that she has all-ages versions of "at least some games" helps... how, exactly? Are you also going to confiscate/filter her Internet? Make her uninstall everything from her PC? Tell her to stop hanging out with her "shady" friends? And all this under the guise of somehow... what? More importantly, why?

Confiscating the odd thing when someone's just getting started to help point them in the right direction is one thing. But when someone is already this deeply entrenched, you're not going to "cure" them by forcefully ripping away that which has already become a part of them. So long as her hobby doesn't negatively impact the rest of her life, the best thing her family can do is continue to love and support her as they always have (and in Kyousuke's case, as he never really bothered to do until recently). And, heaven forfend, maybe they could actually have a real talk with her about these issues, rather than a "society says this is evil and wrong and I'm firmly against it!" ultimatum.

So anyway, I'm glad that Kyousuke didn't give a passing throught to entertaining his father's (rather half-hearted) rhetorical objection. You don't search for a cure unless the patient is sick, and Kirino is not sick. That was the point of the episode. Granted the rest of taofd's argument that Kirino's private personality/behaviour is a bit less than kind/graceful, but I would argue that's just who Kirino is deep-down, and it has nothing to do with her interest in this hobby. Take away any part of this hobby, and you won't change that.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I'm not sure about that; edited/"enhanced" maybe but... for example.

Seriously? And exactly what good would that do at this point? She's already been exposed to the material, and already spent thousands of dollars acquiring it.

Taking the material from her permanently would be unwise because it would make a horrible waste out of what she has spent on her hobby. But he could hold it in storage for her somewhere until she becomes an adult.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily what he should do, but it is an option.

Is removing the material now going to restore her innocence, moral purity and a "rightful sense of propriety"? Is it going to "teach her a lesson" about following society's rules? Is it going to make her a better person?

In the long-term, possibly, to all three questions.

Look, relentlessflame, those game ratings are there for a reason. Society's rules aren't always wrong. Sometimes there are very good reasons behind them. Some of this material really is questionable for a middle-schooler to be playing.

Besides, I would argue that it's important for children to grow up with some degree of respect for the law. Not that the law is always right, of course, but that lawlessness or anarchy is far from a desirable social state, and hence some laws need to be there, and generally should be followed.

Besides that, adults have to deal with the laws of the land whether they want to or not. Kirino's father would be doing his daughter no favors by shielding her from that fact.

Kirino is who she is, and this is already a part of her character -- "distasteful" material and all. As you alluded to yourself, it's not as if she's doing anything wrong in her life -- she's living responsibly, doing well in school, and even holding down a well-paying job at her age. If exposure to this sort of material were going to "corrupt her character", that corruption would already be there anyway.

Not necessarily. The effects of desensitization to certain types of material can sometimes take a long time to become fully realized.

For example, in Kirino's case, maybe some of these adult games could give her young self who is still learning about the world around her the wrong idea about how romantic and sexual relations work in the real world.

Whereas an adult like you or I would likely realize which scenes or events in these games are unrealistic or overly idealistic or misogynistic, a child of Kirino's age might not fully realize that, and these games could gradually over a lengthy period of time give Kirino a very incorrect perception of mature sexual relationships. Any negative impacts of that would only be truly seen and felt once Kirino is in a mature sexual relationship herself.

To use an analogy, a son can grow up to his early teens watching his father abuse his mother, and be slowly developing very wrong ideas about what normal and acceptable relations between men and women are, but nobody around him would be the wiser. The negative ideas that the son is taking from that may not be fully realized until he's in a relationship himself. If there's some sort of intervention before he ends up in a relationship himself; an intervention that shows him that the way his father treats his mother is wrong; then maybe he can be prevented from becoming an abusive partner himself.


With this in mind, I'll say this... it would perhaps be best for Kirino's father to review some of these games himself, and to discuss them with his daughter in a mature and respectful manner, and then let her do what she wants with them.

The fact that she has all-ages versions of "at least some games" helps... how, exactly?

Well, it would be very cruel for her to lose her entire collection. That's all I mean by that.

Are you also going to confiscate/filter her Internet?

You seriously think there's something wrong with parents filtering their children's internet activity? I would imagine that the possibility of being a victim of an online predator (especially in the case of a fashion idol like Kirino) would be reason enough for that, forget the eroge.

Make her uninstall everything from her PC?

Scanned for viruses, yes. Uninstalled, probably not.

Tell her to stop hanging out with her "shady" friends?

No. Her friends don't appear to be shady. "Shady friends" would be if they were involved in really hard drugs or serious criminal activity.

Confiscating the odd thing when someone's just getting started to help point them in the right direction is one thing. But when someone is already this deeply entrenched, you're not going to "cure" them by forcefully ripping away that which has already become a part of them.

Alcoholics could be called "deeply entrenched" into alcohol abuse. Their alcoholism could be said to be "a part of them". Does that mean that we shouldn't try to help alcoholics get over their alcohol addiction?

Now, Kirino's hobby certainly is not like alcoholism. I'm raising alcoholism here simply to demonstrate how your overarching argument is a flawed one.


In the end, I don't know if her father should take away the adult material or not.

But it's not as cut and dried as you make it out to be, in my opinion.

[relentlessflame]

The key/central point to everything I said (which everything else revolved around) was the following: It's not as if Kirino just picked up these games now. She has been playing them for a good while now; long enough to amass a significant collection. At this point, it is already part of Kirino's character, and she has proven herself otherwise capable in the world. So, what good would confiscating this stuff from her now do?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Besides, I would argue that it's important for children to grow up with some degree of respect for the law. Not that the law is always right, of course, but that lawlessness or anarchy is far from a desirable social state, and hence some laws need to be there, and generally should be followed.

This is not a "law"; it's a suggestion by a voluntary industry group. They industry submits themselves to this because they wish to avoid lawmaker scrutiny, but it's not as if anyone can press charges or file a lawsuit against anyone for her having access to this sort of material. In theory the stores are supposed to stop her from buying, but that doesn't mean they always do.

I don't even need to get into illustrations from other video game industries that have age restrictions and the implications that such rigid interpretations have. They're guidelines -- suggestions -- not hard and fast rules. People don't all of a sudden become magically capable of processing "adult" material the moment they hit an artificial line in the sand, but we still set an age so that people have some sort of common basis upon which to make a comparative judgement.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Not necessarily. The effects of desensitization to certain types of material can sometimes take a long time to become fully realized.

For example, in Kirino's case, maybe some of these adult games could give her young self who is still learning about the world around her the wrong idea about how romantic and sexual relations work in the real world.

So where does the problem lead to the solution of even entertaining the idea of suddenly taking all this away from her connect to this? Now if you had said something like the following to start with...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

With this in mind, I'll say this... it would perhaps be best for Kirino's father to review some of these games himself, and to discuss them with his daughter in a mature and respectful manner, and then let her do what she wants with them.

...then I might have agreed. In fact, that's pretty much exactly what I said as well. It's an opportunity for her parents to have a serious conversation with Kirino about sex, if they haven't already done so. But to now all of a sudden pretend they can turn back the clock by ripping all this stuff away from her... it's illogical to say the least. I would suggest that, if anything, that act alone would be more likely to give her a warped perspective about love and sex -- as if it's something dirty and to be ashamed of.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You seriously think there's something wrong with parents filtering their children's internet activity? I would imagine that the threat of being a victim of an online predator (especially in the case of a fashion idol like Kirino) would be reason enough for that, forget the eroge.

Again, my point/premise is that Kirino is trustworthy. To take this one thing in her life (when everything else is apparently in order) and use that as evidence to suggest that she can't be trusted... it's overkill.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Alcoholics could be called "deeply entrenched" into alcohol abuse. Their alcoholism could be said to be "a part of them". Does that mean that we shouldn't try to help alcoholics get over their alcohol addiction.

Now, Kirino's hobby certainly is not like alcoholism. I'm raising alcoholism here simply to demonstrate how your overarching argument is a flawed one.

No no no no. No. You can't do that. The argument works precisely because playing eroge is not like alcoholism. You can't disprove the argument using an alcoholism illustration and say it's not like alcoholism. Which is it?

Alcoholism is unquestionably bad for you, because it has clear and obvious repercussions in your life. It is harmful to your body. It is harmful to your mental faculties. It is harmful to your financial state. It is harmful to others who surround you. It is unquestionably a harmful addiction that, if left untreated, can have devastating consequences -- even death.

But in this case, you can't seem to decide. Is playing this sort of material bad for Kirino? Is it insidious and corrupting in principle? Has it corrupted Kirino's character and values thus far? Is it likely to corrupt her values going forward? If left "untreated", is it likely to have devastating consequences going forward?

Those are the sorts of questions that Kirino's father had to ask himself (and that Kyousuke was trying to prompt him to ask). And, in view of the fact that Kirino has generally proven herself to be an outstanding daughter, he rightfully (IMO, of course) concluded that he should permit her hobby. The 18+ material is part of that hobby at this time.

Again, this isn't an argument about whether minors should be allowed to have access to adult-rated video games as a matter of principle. It's about Kirino and her specific case. And that's why no "part of me" ever thought that confiscating the material was the right answer. Pretty much every other option available was a better choice than that, if you ask me.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread, but how you see this issue is probably one of the key, central issues in this story, so I think it's pretty important.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

...then I might have agreed. In fact, that's pretty much exactly what I said as well. It's an opportunity for her parents to have a serious conversation with Kirino about sex, if they haven't already done so.

While I agree with this idea, I must say that talking to your fourteen year old daughter about her interest in lolicon incest eroge seems like it would be very awkward. I don't even know where you'd start.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It is harmful to your financial state.

Technically, being an otaku is generally harmful to your finances as well. That's common to many hobbies though.

I also have to say that Kirino is a lot better at making friends with non-otaku than a lot of otaku are.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

While I agree with this idea, I must say that talking to your fourteen year old daughter about her interest in lolicon incest eroge seems like it would be very awkward. I don't even know where you'd start.

True enough. But again, central to this premise is that you are concerned that this particular interest is necessarily a sign of dysfunction. (I'm not so sure, but debating that side-topic is a hellhole that could trap us for weeks.) If they haven't talked to Kirino about these kinds of broad issues at all ever because it was "too awkward", then now they have a problem since it's "double-awkward". But this wouldn't surprise me, as they haven't shown any signs that the household is particularly open or communicative.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Technically, being an otaku is generally harmful to your finances as well. That's common to many hobbies though.

Well sure, but so far at least she seems to have been doing this all on the money she's raised through her part-time job (and since she's still a student living with her parents, she doesn't have much in the way of other expenses). And she does this while still being able to afford to stay fashionable, go out on dates with friends, and so on. When she starts abandoning everything else in her life, taking out loans, and accumulating lots of credit card debt, then we can talk.

(Then again, as someone who has in fact accumulated a ton of debt in no small part due to this hobby, I'm not necessarily one to do the talking... )

[Triple_R]

Relentlessflame - I might respond to the rest of your post later after giving it more thought, but there's one part I want to respond to immediately.

Again, my point/premise is that Kirino is trustworthy. To take this one thing in her life (when everything else is apparently in order) and use that as evidence to suggest that she can't be trusted... it's overkill.

As it pertains to internet filters, this isn't just a matter of trust. The most innocent and trustworthy child or teenager alive could be victimized by an online predator. Honestly, relentlessflame, your implication that parents shouldn't filter their children's internet activities strikes me as reckless.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

As it pertains to internet filters, this isn't just a matter of trust. The most innocent and trustworthy child or teenager alive could be victimized by an online predator. Honestly, relentlessflame, your implication that parents shouldn't filter their children's internet activities strikes me as reckless.

Again, put the point in context: they shouldn't implement such a policy as a result of this incident. Whether parents should filter their children's Internet access as a matter of principle is a much broader issue. I have an opinion there too, but again: this isn't about general principle, it's about this specific case and Kirino. If they're worried about predators and the like, let them say so and make that the issue. That isn't the issue presented in this show.

(Edit: The reason I brought it up in the first place is that, without a doubt, the Internet is a great place to get access to this sort of material. If her parents were to confiscate all of her 18+ games, she could easily download the same material over the Internet -- though of course the anime isn't going to discuss that illegal option. So if you're going to confiscate her games, you would have to take the next logical steps to prevent her from getting access to the material in the future. And that's precisely why this approach is pretty likely to fail overall. Once you send the message that she can't be trusted, you have to take it all the way, and Kyousuke's key message to her parents was that she is, in fact, trustworthy.)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

While I agree with this idea, I must say that talking to your fourteen year old daughter about her interest in lolicon incest eroge seems like it would be very awkward.

This is part of the issue for me too.

I mean, if Kirino was just into her world's equivalent to Kanon or Amagami SS, then her father having a simple and friendly conversation with her about what she takes from the games would probably be fine.

But the particular eroges that she, as a middle-school girl with an older brother, is playing... in an anime, it's comedic, but in the real world, you have to admit that it's eyebrow raising, Relentlessflame.

Even Kyousuke doesn't deny that.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Again, put the point in context: they shouldn't implement such a policy as a result of this incident. Whether parents should filter their children's Internet access as a matter of principle is a much broader issue. I have an opinion there too, but again: this isn't about general principle, it's about this specific case and Kirino. If they're worried about predators and the like, let them say so and make that the issue. That isn't the issue presented in this show.

Ok, I see what you're saying. I agree that such a policy shouldn't be tied to this particular incident.

Edit: After giving it more thought, if I was Kirino's dad I'd probably say to her "I don't like some of your games, although others I think are fine. You've already matured quite a bit by holding down a job while doing well in school. So, I'm not going to take any of your games away. As long as I don't get any sense that your hobby is hurting you in school, they're all yours to keep. But please be careful about who you show them to. Oh, and never let my parents see them."

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

True enough. But again, central to this premise is that you are concerned that this particular interest is necessarily a sign of dysfunction. (I'm not so sure, but debating that side-topic is a hellhole that could trap us for weeks.) If they haven't talked to Kirino about these kinds of broad issues at all ever because it was "too awkward", then now they have a problem since it's "double-awkward". But this wouldn't surprise me, as they haven't shown any signs that the household is particularly open or communicative.

Eh, where did you get the idea that I thought it was a sign of dysfunction? I've met teenage girls who liked the anime version of Kodomo no Jikan and I didn't think they were dysfunctional, why would I think differently of a teenage girl liking a lolicon incest eroge? In fact, I felt a certain kinship with Kirino when she talked about how the cute cover art made her want to play the games (although for me the draw would be non-loli kemonomimi characters, not little sisters.) I'm simply saying I'm not sure how someone would actually go about discussing that topic with their kid.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

As it pertains to internet filters, this isn't just a matter of trust. The most innocent and trustworthy child or teenager alive could be victimized by an online predator. Honestly, relentlessflame, your implication that parents shouldn't filter their children's internet activities strikes me as reckless.

To be honest, I'd say that's more of an argument for monitoring your children's internet usage than filtering it.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But the particular eroges that she, as a middle-school girl with an older brother, is playing... in an anime, it's comedic, but in the real world, you have to admit that it's eyebrow raising, Relentlessflame.

Even Kyousuke doesn't deny that.

But see: that very much is the point here. Does Kirino's interest in imouto porn necessarily indicate some sort of deep meaning? Is her claim that "it's so cute" so unbelievable? Or let's jump straight to the point, because even the anime has gone there a few times. If it were Kyousuke with the imouto porn, does that suggest that he wants to have sex with his real life sister?

That's the simplistic way the world looks at it. That's why Kyousuke had to "go there" with his father. That's why he had to "go there" again with Ayase. Because people -- especially those external to this hobby -- are unable to separate the 2D world from the 3D world in their head, so they assume that some deep psychological connection must necessarily exist. But this show has made a mockery of that assumption twice now; Kyousuke saves the day by taking the fall in a way that is so patently ridiculous that it throws the cause and effect relationship into question. Both his father and Ayase know he's lying about it, but it proves the stupidity of the argument perfectly. But he believes they'll be appeased if they can find someone to blame that will support their mistaken belief that there's a cause and effect at play.

I don't know where this story is ultimately going to head; it's not impossible that they may explore some romantic connection between Kyousuke and Kirino (and given that they've basically been treating each other as strangers until now, I suppose there's some justification). But if the show does go down that path, I don't think it'll be Kirino's game collection that was the "telling sign". That's way too simplistic a way of looking at an immensely complex situation. But of course, people just love to take complex situations and narrow things down to a simple cause that can take the blame. The irony of the fan reactions would only continue to compound if that happened in this story's case.


Edit:

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Eh, where did you get the idea that I thought it was a sign of dysfunction? I've met teenage girls who liked the anime version of Kodomo no Jikan and I didn't think they were dysfunctional, why would I think differently of a teenage girl liking a lolicon incest eroge? In fact, I felt a certain kinship with Kirino when she talked about how the cute cover art made her want to play the games (although for me the draw would be non-loli kemonomimi characters, not little sisters.) I'm simply saying I'm not sure how someone would actually go about discussing that topic with their kid.

Sorry for the lack of clarity -- it was indeed a link back to the previous discussion about what Kirino's father could do, not really saying that's what you thought about it. (Personally, I agree with you as well.) If Kirino's father did have "the talk" with her, I'm not sure that it has to be about the "lolicon incest eroge" specifically. But it depends on whether he's had "the talk" with her before and already opened the dialog about these sorts of issues. If not... then yeah, this would be near impossible, and the "just ban it all!" over-reaction is more what I'd expect of him, even if it's a bad idea.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

To be honest, I'd say that's more of an argument for monitoring your children's internet usage than filtering it.

For every working parent, there's going to be times when your (I'm using "your" in a general sense, of course) children are on the internet, and you're not there to monitor it.

Some internet filtration should be there.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But see: that very much is the point here. Does Kirino's interest in imouto porn necessarily indicate some sort of deep meaning? Is her claim that "it's so cute" so unbelievable? Or let's jump straight to the point, because even the anime has gone there a few times. If it were Kyousuke with the imouto porn, does that suggest that he wants to have sex with his real life sister?

That's the simplistic way the world looks at it. That's why Kyousuke had to "go there" with his father. That's why he had to "go there" again with Ayase. Because people -- especially those external to this hobby -- are unable to separate the 2D world from the 3D world in their head, so they assume that some deep psychological connection must necessarily exist. But this show has made a mockery of that assumption twice now; Kyousuke saves the day by taking the fall in a way that is so patently ridiculous that it throws the cause and effect relationship into question. Both his father and Ayase know he's lying about it, but it proves the stupidity of the argument perfectly. But he believes they'll be appeased if they can find someone to blame that will support their mistaken belief that there's a cause and effect at play.

I don't know whether this story is ultimately going to head; it's not impossible that they may explore some romantic connection between Kyousuke and Kirino (and given that they've basically been treating each other as strangers until now, I suppose there's some justification). But if the show does go down that path, I don't think it'll be Kirino's game collection that was the "telling sign". That's way too simplistic a way of looking at an immensely complex situation. But of course, people just love to take complex situations and narrow things down to a simple cause that can take the blame. The irony of the fan reactions would only continue to compound if that happened in this story's case.

Its a distant cousin to the "if *I* think these awful thoughts when I see that then YOU must also think these thoughts!!* ... or what we often see with the most obsessive witch-hunter "pedo in every closet" types. THEY don't think they can control themselves therefore YOU can't.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

For every working parent, there's going to be times when your (I'm using "your" in a general sense, of course) children are on the internet, and you're not there to monitor it.

Some internet filtration should be there.

As I said before, let's not get side-tracked by this tangential point. So let's just leave this issue at that.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Its a distant cousin to the "if *I* think these awful thoughts when I see that then YOU must also think these thoughts!!* ... or what we often see with the most obsessive witch-hunter "pedo in every closet" types. THEY don't think they can control themselves therefore YOU can't.

Exactly. This is ultimately what it all comes down to, and even among the people watching this show, there's some indecision. I guess it's just far enough across the line for some people.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is part of the issue for me too.

I mean, if Kirino was just into her world's equivalent to Kanon or Amagami SS, then her father having a simple and friendly conversation with her about what she takes from the games would probably be fine.

But the particular eroges that she, as a middle-school girl with an older brother, is playing... in an anime, it's comedic, but in the real world, you have to admit that it's eyebrow raising, Relentlessflame.

Even Kyousuke doesn't deny that.

Hmmm... I didn't actually consider that angle, partly because I actually bought Kirino's arguments as to why she played the games.

I think it's interesting to note her that the dad actually doesn't seem that concerned with the fact that Kyousuke (from his perspective) plays lolicon incest porn games. He seems disgusted by it, but not concerned about Kirino's safety, which I would have assumed is the reaction most parents would have.

Also, not all eroge are very open about what sort of sexual material they contain so I wouldn't assume that a parent shouldn't talk to their kid about it just because the game seems pretty normal.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Relentlessflame

That's the simplistic way the world looks at it. That's why Kyousuke had to "go there" with his father. That's why he had to "go there" again with Ayase. Because people -- especially those external to this hobby -- are unable to separate the 2D world from the 3D world in their head, so they assume that some deep psychological connection must necessarily exist. But this show has made a mockery of that assumption twice now; Kyousuke saves the day by taking the fall in a way that is so patently ridiculous that it throws the cause and effect relationship into question. Both his father and Ayase know he's lying about it, but it proves the stupidity of the argument perfectly. But he believes they'll be appeased if they can find someone to blame that will support their mistaken belief that there's a cause and effect at play.

Do we actually know that the father and Ayase know he's lying? I've heard that theory, but I hadn't exactly gotten that impression myself.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But see: that very much is the point here. Does Kirino's interest in imouto porn necessarily indicate some sort of deep meaning?

Relentlessflame... all I said was "eyebrow raising". It doesn't necessarily indicate some sort of deep meaning, but it is cause for concern, don't you think?

Is her claim that "it's so cute" so unbelievable?

If Kirino's world is anything like ours, there's plenty of "cute" anime/manga/game material out there that doesn't cross into this sort of territory.

So if it's just cuteness that she's looking for, then why is she playing the racier games?

I think it's a valid question.

Or let's jump straight to the point, because even the anime has gone there a few times. If it were Kyousuke with the imouto porn, does that suggest that he wants to have sex with his real life sister?

Possibly, yes. I think it would be very naive to think that the answer is a definite "no".

That's the simplistic way the world looks at it.

No, not simplistic; simply not naive. There are people like this in the real world, Relentlessflame. It's not completely unheard of.

That's why Kyousuke had to "go there" with his father.

Whether or not his father bought Kyousuke's lie is up to interpretation. It's being debated right now on this forum, last I checked.

That's why he had to "go there" again with Ayase.

I think that Ayase saw through his lie, but part of that might be due to how Kirino reacted to it. Her reactions to it were kind of telling there, in my opinion. It was more of a "What horrible thing is he saying about me?!" kind of reaction than a "Oh no! My secret is out!" kind of reaction, imo.