StarCraft 2

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Sort of like the Dark Archon capture of workers. (my friend and I aways did that. I'd send him one of my SCVs and he'd try to snag a Zerg Drone so he could build whatever he wanted)

Though I think they said they might have a block on the workers abilities, so you might not be able to build anything with said replicated worker. And the unit would be expensive...far too expensive to get back with mules...real or copied.

You have to copy a unit you can see from what I am seeing. But you can copy the same unit with multiple replicators.

That would suck very much, if I can't build with a replicated worker. T_T

You know, by legacy of the void, with all these new units and who knows that they would add in that expansion, they should just increase the supply limit to 300, and throw back all the units into the mix, including the deleted ones. (or at least have fans make a mod where it is possible)

[Flying Dagger]

Well, while mules are ever so sexy, the new nexus with mass recall (!!!) makes it even more potent than a silly CC (I feel bad for zergs: queens still only poop and vomit).

I suppose ghosts are very low in the tech tree (depot->rax->tech lab+ghost academy), so it is very "stealable"

Repairing protoss units would be nice to have: i wouldn't mind mass repairing a colossus while it single-handedly hold off 15 marines on its own: i mean terrans have been doing it with thors for a while.

@the swarm host: I acknowledge each unit have their own strength over others: swarm host likely take less time to build, do not run in energy, would likely cost less minerals and gas, and the spawnlings are instant+recurring: most likely the swarm host can be used as a defensive measure at a timing much earlier than the infestor's regular timing (even under ling infestor build). I think spawnlings are also more durable.

Infestors have their strengths too! Infested terrans are ranged, infestors can move, they can FG and NP, they can also move while burrowed.

Take a few steps back, the general "key idea" of spawning "free units" (yes, i know each infested cost 25e, still!) is shared among both units. It almost feels like hmm... giving terrans medics. Medics might come with a few other spells, be on a lower tier, cost less resources, can be made en-mass from barracks, but the general idea of "healing stuff" is shared between the medic and the medivac.

Get what I am trying to express?

[Kyuu]

A review on the units.

Too bad, it'll be a while longer before I ever get back into action.

[Ithekro]

A level playing field....for about two weeks.

[Kyuu]

Anyways, seeing that Tempest in action... I don't feel all that bad about losing the carrier anymore. I'm so gonna miss the Mothership though. It was a nice gimmick unit that speaks "Up yours, I'm winning!".

[felix]

Regarding the replicant. If you replicate a worked you won't get another 200 cap, you just get the diversity.

And yes it is OP, I mean you can just replicate the replicant then send them to your opponents base and replicate a deployed shredder into their mineral line (notice how it copies the state?), gg. That's not the point though, they EXPLICITLY said in an interview their goal was to just make new units that fill holes in the race's arsenal, not make a unit that's perfectly balanced into the game. They also said how the units are intentionally tuned up so that people would play with them (specifically speaking internally).

The actual balance would come in the beta, assuming the units make it that far.

[Ithekro]

Is 200 minerals (and I guess 200 gas as wel) and 4 supply worth a copy of an SCV? Plus having to get said SCV out of where ever it is (will it work with an Observer that is over a base across the map from the Replicant?) Is it worth that much to make a Command Center and all the other things you might build with your limited supply? Also, do you, like I think you did in BW, need to build Suppy Depose to supply your new Terran units, even though you still only have 200 max? (Or was that something I imagined...it has been a very long time since I played with a Dark Archon).

[felix]

You will still need to build a supply if you want to build anything beyond CC.

And yes (at the moment) the replicant has unlimited range, you just need vision.

[Archon_Wing]

Making a replicant worker to build another race's units seems like a huge waste of resources in any competitive game. If you have the resources to climb an entirely different race's tech tree and get upgrades, you've already won, and should quit wasting times.

You could do that with mind control in bw, but never achieved much relevance.

You would be infinitely better off replicating siege tank and getting immediate effects. Well, how about getting an scv for orbitals and planetaries?

[felix]

In SotG the guys made the point that (a) you're always going to get a lot less units with the replicator if you're replicating ghosts, tanks etc, they cost 4 pop so holy sheet do they block supply (just 5 = 20 supply, 1000 / 1000 WTFLOL? don't even think of anything like 10) and (b) teching to another race is viable as 3rd base, etc since at that time it's not that big of a deal; especially if your opponent is terran for free stuff like Mules, PFs, etc. Maybe zerg for Overseers, if they don't get cut. Since you're toss you can crono shit out and with your good economy at 3rd base should be able to just sprint to some tech you need.

As for BW wasn't that because Feedback was there on the same unit?

But anyway I think the guys on SotG pretty much nailed it, all these new units abilities and stuff, they're all really good as crowd pleasers. And when you look at SC2 with it's balls, Mass Marine/Marauder nonsense and other junk, the game could use a few of these wacky units to spice it up from a spectator standpoint.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Making a replicant worker to build another race's units seems like a huge waste of resources in any competitive game. If you have the resources to climb an entirely different race's tech tree and get upgrades, you've already won, and should quit wasting times.

You could do that with mind control in bw, but never achieved much relevance.

You would be infinitely better off replicating siege tank and getting immediate effects. Well, how about getting an scv for orbitals and planetaries?

Trolling effects?

[Flying Dagger]

Dark archons require 2 DTs and the MCed unit is not guaranteed to make it out alive. Ghosts are low enough in the tech tree and powerful enough imo to be worth the risky. Its not like the OC doesnt pay for itself over time, or that a depot cant be used instead of a pylon. 350 minerals+100gas to start ghost production is def worth it!

[felix]

^ Ohrly

Replicator 200/200 => 4 supply SCV
CC 400, 100s
Depo 100, 30s
Barracks 150, 65s
Academy 150/50, 40s
+1 ghost 200/100, 40s

So to get to 1 ghost using replicator 1200 / 350 and takes 5 minutes (not counting whatever replicator takes). Worth it you say? You sure?

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by felix

^ Ohrly

Replicator 200/200 => 4 supply SCV
CC 400, 100s
Depo 100, 30s
Barracks 150, 65s
Academy 150/50, 40s
+1 ghost 200/100, 40s

So to get to 1 ghost using replicator 1200 / 350 and takes 5 minutes (not counting whatever replicator takes). Worth it you say? You sure?

Only if you are very willing to do combo races.

@Flying dagger: That's why I have hallucinated shuttles, one of which is real of course, take control of the unit and flee! (just like a gundam jack)

[Flying Dagger]

You don't need a CC to build a depot/rax. The depot for the most part function the same as a pylon, so it is not really an "investment" into the ghost tech: you need that supply anyway. I did not factor in the replicant though. I also did not count the ghost itself since it is what you want.


Replicator 200/200 => 4 supply SCV

Barracks 150, 65s
Tech lab 50/25, built same time as academy
Academy 150/50, 40s


I actually made a mistake and counted tech lab as 50 gas.
350 minerals and 75 gas investment to start making ghosts. Will you pay for that for your chance to EMP their ghosts?

Oh and orbital commands pay for themselves overtime via mules (at the cost of faster mineral depletion). You can also factor in tactical scans (high end terrans will scan and pick off your observers and just emp your whole army with cloaked ghosts). SCVs also repair the heavy mechanical based protoss army which is not something to look down upon.

[felix]

Oh that's interesting, didn't know CC wasn't required.

Though even if it factors in as supply you still can't ignore it since the build time factors in and by the time you get it you have to consider if you even need the supply... so one way or another it's still there and part of the cost.

Oh and I can see where you're coming from but what good is the investment if you don't count the first ghost? =P You could do the math using the target number of ghosts you want for your first assualt if you want to be more accurate; that's all still money not going towards your protoss army.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by felix

Oh that's interesting, didn't know CC wasn't required.

Though even if it factors in as supply you still can't ignore it since the build time factors in and by the time you get it you have to consider if you even need the supply... so one way or another it's still there and part of the cost.

Oh and I can see where you're coming from but what good is the investment if you don't count the first ghost? =P You could do the math using the target number of ghosts you want for your first assualt if you want to be more accurate; that's all still money not going towards your protoss army.

Well in SC2, do all three races share ONE single 200 supply limit, or does each one have their own set like in SC1/SC BW if you manage to control a worker from another race?

[Archon_Wing]

Pop is not that big of an issue. If you max out, go fight and lose some units, and rebuild. The benefits of now are frequently better than the benefits later.

A 2nd race is not viable as a 3rd base. It takes about half a dozen mutalisks or a medivac filled with guys to make you reconsider it. It only takes a little bit before you have to start from square 1. It takes too long, unless you think trying to macro a bunch of 0-0 upgrade guys will help your cause. You're going to end up halfassing your own tech and this new tech. And not to mention supply.... Did I mention upgrades take forever?

Now, if you split the map or something, and you wanted to add tanks, then that'd make sense. But this is nothing OP considering the large set up costs.

And why would you build ghosts against terran lol? You have Storm and feedback. If you EMP each other, you're gonna feel more pain.

[Ithekro]

I believe a Supply Depot is required to make a Barrack. They changed that to avoid ultra early reaper harrass.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Well in SC2, do all three races share ONE single 200 supply limit, or does each one have their own set like in SC1/SC BW if you manage to control a worker from another race?

I don't recall SC1 ever having separate supply limits for the different races. In BW, whenever I took over another race via Dark Archon, I couldn't produce many more units from those races because of the supply cap.