2007-11-23, 06:47 | Link #741 | |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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Though that is the impression i get from reading most things here - things getting blown way out of proportion.
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2007-11-23, 06:53 | Link #742 |
Anime Hobbyist
Join Date: Dec 2004
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To be fair for everyone looking at the issues, the show itself is blowing it up for us a bit too.
Renji bawling and making a Shakespearean mental-break was only implied. That was probably a small moment he had in his own mind. Similarly, Miyako's problems could be a bit dramatized according to her own perspective (which is pretty bad from what the show has shown us). Ditto to Chihiro and her GOD MODE of her own ailment, Kei and her own possessiveness about Hiro, Kyosuke's near-obsessive attraction to Kei, etc. But I have to admit to being one of those people who made a big fuss about it. I really get into these arguments even when I don't see myself as liking arguments for argument's sakes |
2007-11-23, 07:50 | Link #743 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Well, I couldn't imagine Hiro taking those steps either. Which is why I said that I don't think Hiro is in an ideal position to help her out.
I don't believe that Miyako is a psychopath, either. In fact, my original position was one which stated that her situation was fairly common, and that all it would take to widen her perspective and get out of her funk would be a single unexpected bitchslap (that qualifier basically only excludes Kei, because coming from her it would be wholly rationalizable from Miyako's current perspective) (also, metaphorical slaps to the face are fine too). From this perspective, the show would actually show more "healing" of this aspect of Miyako's character than I would consider necessary. But as for my assumptions on Hiro's character, well, actually. Nope, I was assuming that a normal person would disapprove of and feel burdened by another person acting in such a manner as MiyaMiya did. The relevance of the "normal person" comes from the fact that a "normal person" is best suited to helping Miyako readjust herself. Hiro, in his current state, rather than being bothered, would actually undergo some character development as he is forced to consider the existance of people beyond himself. I'm not sure how he would act after that revelation, but I would trust he wouldn't take a stupid "I love you and will be here for you 'cause you're a girl and you like me a lot" stance. If you want me to speak directly in terms of the likely direction of the show, however, I predict that Hiro never finds out that Miyako has these issues (at least until after she resolves them), and instead they begin doing fun things out and around town. Although Miyako's initial motivation would only be spending time with Hiro, through actually doing things she begins to see that the world is colourful after all. Over time she manages to develop her own interests and become her own person. Finally, some sort of contrived romancey thing resolves the "colour" metaphor in some meaningful way and we all walk away satisfied. And that would be great, there's nothing enjoyable about watching the kind of scenario I initially described. I merely saw it as a more prudent course of action if, as in most cases, the person being obsessed over both did not have significant issues of their own to sort out and also were not a fated lover who were practically guaranteed a relationship with the obsessor. |
2007-11-23, 08:23 | Link #744 | |
Inactive
Join Date: Aug 2007
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If you ever consider watching it then I would recommend that you lower your expectations to 1/10th of what you expect from Ef then you will be able to enjoy it.
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2007-11-23, 09:25 | Link #745 |
Senior Member
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Watched episode 7.
The visuals were awesome. How is it called, post modern? Actually i cant recall seeing something like that before. Plotwise its all very nice boat. I mean using the phone, deleting messages, putting ppl to ignore list etc doesnt promise anything good. In Myself ; Yourself it appears that the authors know the limits and here they are a bit overdoing it. However nothing terrible happened so far and judging by the preview things are supposed to settle down a bit.
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2007-11-23, 09:44 | Link #746 | |||
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
Graphic Designer
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while i would like to see miyako getting such a rude awakening to reality, it isnt like it will happen. her problem is a more mental one that can only be healed through actions that dont involve harm imo...hiro needs to talk to her to try and open her up to her wont situation. she is feeling like there isnt anyone out there for her right? imo her whole mental state isnt something normal - rather on the extreme side imo...while "losing" your parents maybe painful - she has shown that she is a lot more sensitive to such things than normal people. i think she has always thought that she may have contributed to her parents splitting up (which is possible considering her age), and then this caused the knockback effect that isolated her from anyone else. come to think she has never been see with anyone else other than hiro...doesnt anyone think that it is her problem that she doesnt want to make friends? we know that she is a regular as skipping classes so this could have been one of those isolation factors as she is portrayed to be a "bad girl". so a slap back to reality could technically work...though im not sure what miyako fans would think Quote:
hiro very much considers miyako to he his friend however annoying she may be. this is a part of everyday life afterall. i think he would be caring enough to undergo development to help her - whilst at the same time is able to shape his own "boring" (or doesnt give much of a dam) personality. ill take off the cheesy scenario but something similar to that could happen. just imagine myako crying in his arms telling him that she loves him and cant live without him. any normal human would feel touched (or a small portion would be totally freaked out ) so for hiro it is most likely that he would accept her feelings. thus kicking kei out of the triangle Quote:
in that case id say it has minimal chance of it working. now if hiro is a senstive fellow (lawls) then he might become aware of miyako's absence for a prolonged period of time. during which i believe that emo miyako would have locked herself up in her house and weeped like she has never weeped before. hiro may come to her place to be her saving grace, the romance thing can happen after hiro heals her heart - during which time they start to go out. while kei is pretty much left in the dust.
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2007-11-23, 10:12 | Link #747 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Episode 7 is making me revise my estimate of this show from "excellent" to "masterpiece."
The subtlety of Chihiro's feelings and Renji's realizations about her are among the best things I've seen in anime. And the scene of Miyako's panicky phone calls was brilliant, both visually and from the seiyuu, Taguchi Hiroko.
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2007-11-23, 10:12 | Link #748 | |
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Burnt out at 16? I don't think it can be called healthy or normal. Sure maybe he is forced to be in this situation due to his circumstances with his dad. If you are a pro mangaka, living on your own, suffering from being burnt out with a damaged wrist from how hard you work at the tender ages of 16 then I'll take your experiences at face value. My comments in regards to psychology were more aimed at the whole concept of is Miyako crazy. Notice how I said about counted as norm to society.... One man's crazy is another's genius etc etc.... *Edit* I just watched the epi again and I can only describe Miyako's phone messages as a desperate cry for help.
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Last edited by grey_moon; 2007-11-23 at 12:29. |
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2007-11-23, 13:50 | Link #749 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Miyako's phone messages are definitely a cry for help. She has been alone for maybe years, and now she finds someone she actually loves and wants to be with, instead of keeping everyone at a safe arm's length as she had been doing. This is her own attempt to solve her problems, but she needs him to help her. Is she "crazy"? Aren't we all? It is even more crazy to avoid any reliance on other people. I myself think that Hiro will realize the effect his abandonment of her has had on her and will try to make up for it. We'll see Saturday.
I love the way everyone is acting out of a combination of selfish and unselfish motives: Kei wants to help Hiro, but she also wants him for herself. Miya loves him, but he is also a way of solving her own problems. Chihiro loves being with Renji, but the fact that she forgets each day after it is over means that she is often acting as she thinks her character should, rather than as she feels. Hiro enjoys being with Miya and knows he has to help Kei, but it's not clear that he "loves" them. Maybe he loves being a mangaka more. Either Kei or Miyako could break through the wall that Hiro seems to have built around himself. So far, Miyako had been doing more in that direction, by her "annoying" but wonderful flightiness. Kei now does it by being hurt and needing help. I like all the characters. They all seem to be real, complex people, despite the fantastic way things are presented. By the way, I think we are now delving into the reasons why the guy in the church wanted to warn people against being involved with Chihiro. She is hard to predict, since her life situation is so abnormal.
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2007-11-23, 14:34 | Link #750 | ||
Mou Nakanai~
Fansubber
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Moon (where Feena at <3)
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Wow, I was gone for one day and this thread has extended 3 pages. You can't imagine how overjoyed I am right now, seeing that this show hasn't been as popular as expected (i.e. download numbers dropped dramatically after the initial episodes), simply because a lot of people couldn't accept the style of its presentation and/or the complexity of the story. I found it a bit disheartening that anime fans nowadays were so used to cliche or stereotype type of shows, that they didn't even attempt to appreciate what this show had to offer. Heck, even one of the subbing groups dropped it because their staff "lost interest in this series". But seeing this is really encouraging, especially for us (okay, I admit I'm the one on the team who's most hyped about this show/game, but at least the rest of the members enjoy it, more or less) who do it for the love of the series.
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2007-11-23, 15:20 | Link #751 |
♪♫ Maya Iincho ♩♬
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Miyako would be my favorite characters, while she suffers from a mental barrier from her rather upsetting past, she has the most to grow from and of course like already said, only Hiro would be able to help her from her delima. Not like anyone else like to deal with her and she doesn't really stick out like a sore thumb other than her good looks. Her personality is a difficult one to feel comfortable with. Miyako has a pretty smart mouth with an eliteist attitude but seemingly enough was shut out with Kei's outward confession to herself on her so called dreams. Of course now Miyako is in a terrible spot, almost like she's like a broken machine. Pretty much she's in that spot right after you get dumped >.<
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2007-11-23, 17:32 | Link #753 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Growing out of that perception is part of every person's life. But it's not something someone else can do for you--you have to come to this realization yourself. That's why Hiro giving her special treatment would actually make it worse: it would reinforce her idea that she's what the world revolves around. And yes, the reason she is still stuck with this perception is because she's alone all the time, i.e. not having friends. Quote:
Anyway, "any normal person would be touched". Yes, but with what emotion? That would be pity. That would not be romantic love (unless, again, you're desperate. And that would be manipulation, btw: "I'm going to take advantage of your need for me to fulfill my own emotional and sexual desires."). How could you be happy that somebody needed you for something so superficial as being around them so they wouldn't go into depression/have a nervous breakdown/commit suicide? Wouldn't you want them to be stronger than that? 'cause accepting something like that is taking a huge load of responsibility onto yourself, for no good reason. My point is, Hiro being the one to bring Miyako out of her dilemma would be a very significant obstacle to them ever working well together in a healthy relationship. And furthermore, most other people would actually be more effective than Hiro in helping her become her own person. well, edit: Hiro being aware of Miyako's dilemma and actively working to bring her out of it would be a very significant etc. etc. It's an issue of respect, it's an issue of being seperate people. Codependance never works unless both parties are utterly, completely unable to be creeped out by the other. |
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2007-11-23, 17:44 | Link #754 | ||
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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2007-11-23, 18:10 | Link #755 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Call me a romantic, but I personally am "creeped out" by this supposedly objective analysis of the romantic situations here. "Co-dependency" is a matter of degree, in my experience/opinion. If we weren't psychologically co-dependent, we wouldn't be human. We would be machines or totally separate entities of some inhuman kind. Such apparent rationality seems to me to tend to exclude feeling. Of course we "use" each other in romantic situations. We wouldn't get together romantically if we didn't satisfy psychological needs and predispositions in each other. Marriage, then, might just be a matter of sex, procreation, and a business partnership. And that would be using each other in a much less interesting, if perhaps more dependable and traditional, way.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2007-11-23 at 18:26. |
2007-11-23, 18:44 | Link #756 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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What they're trying to drive at is in the difference between "co-dependancy" ("I need you to complete me/go on in life" - the other party is glorified) and "interdependancy" ("We're better together than apart" - both parties are equals). Miyako, in her needy broken state, isn't at a good place in life to be in a healthy relationship; Hiro's every action can sway her from one extreme to another, from euphoria to the deepest depression. What she "needs" more than a boyfriend right now is to recover from her trauma and be able to live a "normal, healthy life". However, this is what real life is like. As you said, we're all broken to various degrees. And when you're in the middle of it, it's nearly impossible to step back and see everything rationally. We let feelings trump our better judgement. We act on inpulse, do and say stupid things, make suboptimal decisions, and learn to live with the consequences. And despite psychological theory, over the long term, the best relationships aren't the one that are the most problem-free, they're the ones that find a way to overcome all their problems. So all that to say, I would agree that we're missing the mark a bit if we let our rationality completely trump our feelings when watching this show. One of the greatest parts of anime, in my opinion, is letting yourself get absorbed into the show and get carried away by it. If you can't do that, at least to a certain degree, then even emotional shows like these become exercises in rationality, analysis, and behavioural study. I can't help but think that, from a certain perspective, that would be both missing out and, to a certain degree, missing the point. Then again, you could probably "call me a romantic" as well. |
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2007-11-23, 21:00 | Link #757 | |
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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2007-11-24, 02:33 | Link #758 |
Anime Hobbyist
Join Date: Dec 2004
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As things being a cry for help goes, that seems to go with ALL the characters (amazing, I know).
Kei and her need for something more serious, Chihiro and her inability to get to know people due to her illness, Kyosuke's mind-wandering, Hiro being burnt out, Miyako and her apparent cries for help, Renji and his naivete which is all the more helping him feel Chihiro's pain rather than blunting it. There is that one Angel/Nun girl who is going around putting the characters together or giving mysterious hints. Maybe the real story is actually about her helping lost souls. |
2007-11-24, 02:47 | Link #759 |
Team M.Y.T.Hi.C.
Join Date: May 2006
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WOW. ef continues to deliver, in both visuals and content. I love how the monologue played out, with the background music adding to the intensity of the scene, and the Chihiro/Renji story continues to be complicated, and it could go anywhere from here. can't wait for episode 8.
9.5/10
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2007-11-24, 02:59 | Link #760 |
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I really like how you put that. When I think about it after reading that line, it does seem like he was sucked into her world rather then being the prince who pulls her into his. I do have to point out I do think what he has done is good for Chiaki as it give her something to look forward to, as she did seem like she had given up all hope. I just hope he doesn't mess it all up. Come one Renji I'll buy you a pint when you reach 18 if you pull your socks up and act like the hero that I know you want to be!
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bishoujo, drama, romance, seinen, shaft |
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