(CR) White Album (All Episodes, 1-26)

[Dop]

Punish me Yayoi, punish me!

Ahem. right. I still think Yayoi's motives are to irrevocably split Touya and Yuki by showing Yuki how completely unfaithful he is. She'll get him into bed then *FLASH* off go the cameras.

But still. Yayoi is hot... in a kind of creepy slightly sinister way... but I like that...!

This series has been a bit of a slow burner for me, but I think my patience is being rewarded.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by SageGaiGar

Spoiler for Motives:

That's exactly her motivation, to take the place of Yuki so she can focus on her career. Main concern may be to maintain the 'purity' of Yuki for commercial purposes. (And maybe sell her off to the highest bidder.)

Spoiler for potential scandal:

Remember the shitstorm over Kannagi 'not being a virgin. lolnerdrage. This sort of situation, "My idol has a boyfriend so I cannot fantasize that she is mine, to obsess and possibly..." This is what Yuki's management is trying to avoid.

That or Eiji has naughty designs for Yuki. (Suggestive pictures and his apparent 'jizz in my pants' while listening to her music. Bad signs) They have both put themselves into a very very bad situation, leading to Touya getting first base in Yayoi's car and likely running the bases for a homerun. On a lighter note... the game has a similiar scene? I might need some reference material . Kidding, if I cared I would google.

Spoiler for other routes:

This starts as business, and will continue and end the same. Unless she actually has a 'route'.I doubt he's enough of an asshole to try and get in the pants of Misaki, Haruka, or Mana in the immediate future. Watch me be wrong though XD if he does go after Mana I will wish that he is condemned to the lowest pit of hell. More likely, the stage is being set for Rina 'vs' Yuki.

Now i gotta hunt down "Return my boyfriend to me" from somewhere in this thread to get in the mood.

Too many spoiler tags? Yeah maybe I'm being paranoid

Those pictures of Yuki pissed me off so much.. and they still do.


Yeah.. too many spoiler tags. Its hard to judge with a single topic for a while series but this is general stuff everyone should know by now.

[Reckoner]

I still do not truly understand why people criticize this show so much. It just seems to me that they wanted forced/contrived drama, much like a series such as Clannad, and those expectations have not been met. This show is all about subtlety and tension, just like in real life, where things are not necessarily explicit.

That is why I find White Album great, it does not try to throw anything on you, but rather lets you absorb and interpret the many interactions on your own. One can say things like "oh, maybe Rina likes Touya," and that is its brilliance. In other shows you KNOW if someone likes another person most of the time. You cannot read the emotions of every character, much like you can't read those of anyone in real life too easily. This is a refreshing method of storytelling in this genre of anime.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I still do not truly understand why people criticize this show so much. It just seems to me that they wanted forced/contrived drama, much like a series such as Clannad, and those expectations have not been met. This show is all about subtlety and tension, just like in real life, where things are not necessarily explicit.

That is why I find White Album great, it does not try to throw anything on you, but rather lets you absorb and interpret the many interactions on your own. One can say things like "oh, maybe Rina likes Touya," and that is its brilliance. In other shows you KNOW if someone likes another person most of the time. You cannot read the emotions of every character, much like you can't read those of anyone in real life too easily. This is a refreshing method of storytelling in this genre of anime.

No doubt that this is an awesome series for the reasons you said.. but.. criticizing is part of discussing something. You may dislike more of the negative criticism but remember that constructive criticism is a good thing.

And I'm still pissed over that photo shoot.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

No doubt that this is an awesome series for the reasons you said.. but.. criticizing is part of discussing something. You may dislike more of the negative criticism but remember that constructive criticism is a good thing.

And I'm still pissed over that photo shoot.

I never said that I disliked criticism, just that I do not understand it.

[SageGaiGar]

People were expecting something more melodramatic and got impatient with the pacing. The series is kicking into overdrive with the last episode. Criticism is also a part of 'venting', we all have our issues, enjoyments and insights to share with series.

And yeah, that photo shoot was kind of exploiting her. Maybe a 'pure' image isn't quite what they're aiming for. Touya may be an idiot, but eiji... rage level rising. I wonder what'll happen to the lil manipulator.

[Zippicus]

The only real problem I have with this show is that the believability factor is pretty low. Other than that it's not bad, but then it's not great or anything either. I guess it's showing it's eroge roots or something.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I still do not truly understand why people criticize this show so much. It just seems to me that they wanted forced/contrived drama, much like a series such as Clannad, and those expectations have not been met. This show is all about subtlety and tension, just like in real life, where things are not necessarily explicit.

There are quite a few different things that people are finding wrong with White Album. How much these issues affect viewers will differ from individual to individual, so it's pointless to make any generalizations. I don't find the show to be particularly high on either the subtlety or the tension scale, and I'm still not sure if I like it or not. On the other hand, I'm still watching White Album because there's a few characters I like in it, it's holding the promise to finally delve into the angst I've been expecting, and because I'm usually very much into this kind of show (the melodrama; not the horserace ).

But then there's stuff like this bit with Yayoi. I like the fact that they're finally shifting into action, but to make her the catalyst? That doesn't do anything at all for me because her character is frankly uninteresting, and there's no emotional attachment to the situation. Heck, it doesn't even have the proper feel of a self-destructive move on Touya's part.

Originally Posted by FlyByNite

The transitions between certain scenes or even the actual conversations characters are having with each other. Maybe my brain just isn't processing the show right... I dunno.

It's not just you. The show goes for extra style points for the sake of having style points, so there's a detached feeling to the whole shebang - a lot of the scenes feel like they're just going through the motions. On top of that, the transitions (even for flashbacks) are often pointlessly obscure and indistinct.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I still do not truly understand why people criticize this show so much. It just seems to me that they wanted forced/contrived drama, much like a series such as Clannad, and those expectations have not been met. This show is all about subtlety and tension, just like in real life, where things are not necessarily explicit.

I completely agree.

That is why I find White Album great, it does not try to throw anything on you, but rather lets you absorb and interpret the many interactions on your own. One can say things like "oh, maybe Rina likes Touya," and that is its brilliance. In other shows you KNOW if someone likes another person most of the time. You cannot read the emotions of every character, much like you can't read those of anyone in real life too easily. This is a refreshing method of storytelling in this genre of anime.

What I learned over this show is that obviously alot of people WANT it spelled out and pre-cooked for them for easy consumption. Watching, observing and drawing conclusions takes effort, and this is not appreciated. Also, I've got to admit that I'm flabbergasted how easily eben the most obvious conclusions can't seem to be made by _many_ people - more than once I read summaries in comments or blogs which were absolutely wrong. Completely misunderstood. And if that happens, I can understand that the enjoyment of the show is significantly lessened and the confusion factor fairly high. I guess that if you're not used to employ the same techniques in real life, and if you don't have good social skills, this can happen.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

There are quite a few different things that people are finding wrong with White Album. How much these issues affect viewers will differ from individual to individual, so it's pointless to make any generalizations. I don't find the show to be particularly high on either the subtlety or the tension scale, and I'm still not sure if I like it or not.

Oh, the show undoubtedly is very subtle. It uses alot of implicit storytelling and symbolism, and it forces you to draw conclusions. Weren't you one of those who actually criticized the show for that? (see below)

On the other hand, I'm still watching White Album because there's a few characters I like in it, it's holding the promise to finally delve into the angst I've been expecting, and because I'm usually very much into this kind of show (the melodrama; not the horserace ).

Well, with that you pretty much confirm what Reckoner wrote.

But then there's stuff like this bit with Yayoi. I like the fact that they're finally shifting into action, but to make her the catalyst? That doesn't do anything at all for me because her character is frankly uninteresting, and there's no emotional attachment to the situation. Heck, it doesn't even have the proper feel of a self-destructive move on Touya's part.

And why wouldn't/shouldn't she be the catalyst? She was the one most aggressively pushing Touya by far, so it would actually be _logical_ to be her (even though I admit that I suspected Rina to be the first to draw blood).

Uninteresting is in the eye of the beholder. In fact she's the girl with the highest remaining mystery potential. The reason why she's loaded is still unclear. Or why Eiji affectionally calls her Yayoi-neesama. The reason why she's so extreme in her protection of Yuki. And the reason why she's been getting mail addressed to "Yayoi-sama". There's still more backstory here, I'm sure - and I have this feeling that she might have had some time in the limelight too, probably cut short due to management problems.

Finally, read again what you wrote. A more classic example "I don't like that the show does it different to what I wanted/expected it to" can hardly be found.

It's not just you. The show goes for extra style points for the sake of having style points, so there's a detached feeling to the whole shebang - a lot of the scenes feel like they're just going through the motions. On top of that, the transitions (even for flashbacks) are often pointlessly obscure and indistinct.

That contradicts the "not very subtle" point you made earlier (and I also strongly disagree on the issue itself). I also don't see the "going through the motions" part at all, it's rather that atypically for the romance drama category the show does NOT go for huge displays of emotion. No teary breakdowns, no shouting matches. In that, I attribute a higher degree of realism to the show, since Japanese are much less susceptible to displaying emotion than we are. And White Album forfeited using this standard "explicit storytelling" technique so far. I do think that's about to change soon though.

[edub]

Originally Posted by SageGaiGar

People were expecting something more melodramatic and got impatient with the pacing. The series is kicking into overdrive with the last episode. Criticism is also a part of 'venting', we all have our issues, enjoyments and insights to share with series.

And yeah, that photo shoot was kind of exploiting her. Maybe a 'pure' image isn't quite what they're aiming for. Touya may be an idiot, but eiji... rage level rising. I wonder what'll happen to the lil manipulator.

I, for one, love the pacing on WA so far. I think it's necessary since they are trying to cover all the motivations and background of the characters without the usual blunt instrument over the head. Rather, it's subtle looks and hints in the dialogues that give away the true feelings. Same reason why I liked True Tears a lot.

As for the series kicking up in the pace:

Spoiler for for important events from the game that has yet to happen:

It's only natural since one of the big events in the game is the school festival, which the main character is currently helping to prepare for. Actually, it's really the first big event in my recollection. Since WA story occurs during the winter months, I just cannot imagine this show not having a second or even third season. I originally thought that Christmas would be the end for this season, because that would be a natural break. But, last episode was Rina's birthday so I don't know how they are going to fit all the events including Christmas in 5 episodes.

[Yu Ominae]

Am I the only one who thinks that an angsty Touya/Yayoi pairing is possible?

[SuperKnuckles]

Angsty? More like vapid and lacking of any soul.. It's the ANTI-emo.

Also, what the heck is up with Mana-chan and acting like a total airhead in terms of romance and people-recognition skills?

Next time around, she's going to mistake a man as Yuki..

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Also, what the heck is up with Mana-chan and acting like a total airhead in terms of romance and people-recognition skills?

Next time around, she's going to mistake a man as Yuki..

You missed that Mana doesn't believe that Touya's girlfriend is Yuki the idol. She thinks that Touya's gf is a random girl named Yuki. That's why at first she thought that Misaki was "Yuki" and now she thinks that Haruka is "Yuki" because she saw her walking with Touya.

My problem with WA is that I totally hate Touya. He is so indecisive and his wishy-washiness is affecting badly all the girls around him. I know this is typical of the harem genre but sometimes it grates on my nerves.
He should have taken the opportunity to speak with Yuki to clarify their relationship but no... he kept everything bottled up. Then he goes around screwing with his gf's manager. The same woman he defined a "cold doll" just two episodes ago.
Go die in a fire, Touya. Now I'm looking forward to a School Days-like ending.

[SuperKnuckles]

Yeah, that totally irks me about Mana. She assumes EVERYTHING there is to Yuki and runs with it. Just so willfully ignorant, it's ridiculous.

As for Touya, he IS indecisive and all, but it's not helped when the rest of the cast is just as insecure if not even MORE so than him. And people like Haruka haven't really made a serious case to be his girlfriend, Mana just assumes EVERYTHING about Touya, Yuki keeps thinking she needs to imprison herself with her idol career, Misaki kept shoving herself into a corner until she needed rescuing by Touya.. damn, the list goes on.

[andiyar]

Hm. Highly enjoyed the stylistic decisions made for episode 8 - the scene splits worked for the most part. Fantastic moment with Touya & Yuki sitting on the bench with 'why? why? why?' floating around above them.

I must admit I definitely don't have really any hate for Touya at the moment, not in context. He's going through a relatively unstable period in his life, emotional and otherwise, and definitely isn't thinking straight... or being straight-laced, either. He's behaving much as I expect someone in his situation to do, and indeed as people I've seen in (relatively) similar situations behave. It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out.

Of course, the eroge roots do show at times, and I wish that White Album had given more of a Canvas 2 style treatment to it's 'less likely' heroines... by which I mean the people other than Rina & Yuki. Still, they aren't the only ones to ever make that mistake.


-Andiyar

[Sorrow-K]

Mana is the goddamn Batman. One minute she's there, the next minute you turn around and she's gone.

Ep 8

I still can't see a reason to abandon my earlier predictions about this turning into melodrama driven by weak characters making stupid decisions. So, we've gotten to the point where we've established that these are weak characters. Now I just hope this show isn't pretentious enough to think that the audience can sympathize with them unless there are drastic changes in their behaviour and thought processes (and even then it'll be difficult). I'm trying to figure out just what type of drama this show could go for now to still be engaging (making the tentative assumption it was engaging in the first place). It can't go for a brand of drama that requires the audience to sympathize with the characters, since it's almost safe to assume that's long gone. It'll have a lot of difficultly going for a brand of drama that makes sweeping and insightful commentaries and analyses of its characters, because most of its important characters are either pretty flat or resemble archetypes. What are we left with... oh, right, the melodramatic trainwreck. Choo choo, here we come! So much for subtlety, amirite?

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I still do not truly understand why people criticize this show so much. It just seems to me that they wanted forced/contrived drama, much like a series such as Clannad, and those expectations have not been met. This show is all about subtlety and tension, just like in real life, where things are not necessarily explicit.

Clannad might be contrived, but at least it bothers to develop its characters and tries to make them sympathetic.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

That is why I find White Album great, it does not try to throw anything on you, but rather lets you absorb and interpret the many interactions on your own. One can say things like "oh, maybe Rina likes Touya," and that is its brilliance. In other shows you KNOW if someone likes another person most of the time. You cannot read the emotions of every character, much like you can't read those of anyone in real life too easily. This is a refreshing method of storytelling in this genre of anime.

So its brilliance is in trying to discern and gossip about who likes who and which couple's about to break-up and who cheated with who in the back seat of a car? Well why don't I just go down to the local high school at 3PM and join in the conversation of a group of teenage schoolgirls and "absorb and interpret" the "brilliance" for myself. I'll never have to buy a Radiohead CD or fork out ten bucks to see the latest Oscar nominated flick or even carry correct change for the bus fare to an art gallery ever again. Thanks to you, I'll know exactly where to go next time I want a shot of "brilliance".

Originally Posted by Mentar

What I learned over this show is that obviously alot of people WANT it spelled out and pre-cooked for them for easy consumption. Watching, observing and drawing conclusions takes effort, and this is not appreciated. Also, I've got to admit that I'm flabbergasted how easily eben the most obvious conclusions can't seem to be made by _many_ people - more than once I read summaries in comments or blogs which were absolutely wrong. Completely misunderstood. And if that happens, I can understand that the enjoyment of the show is significantly lessened and the confusion factor fairly high. I guess that if you're not used to employ the same techniques in real life, and if you don't have good social skills, this can happen.

"Oh no, people don't like my favourite show, it's obviously because they can't make the effort to appreciate this show's beautiful subtlety. Oh, and they have poor social skills". Umm... you wanna accuse people of having poor social skills while you defend a show where the main character cheats on his girlfriend with her manager!? And is a compulsive liar, is ungrateful to his father and obnoxious to his friends? Here's my question: if you knew Touya in real life, would you want to be his friend? Because, I sure as hell wouldn't. I knew people kinda like Touya in my undergrad days, and I fairly quickly worked out that I couldn't trust them as far as I could kick them.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Finally, read again what you wrote. A more classic example "I don't like that the show does it different to what I wanted/expected it to" can hardly be found.

So what should the audience expect from this show? A series where the characters become more and more unlikable to the point where the audience disconnects from them completely and no longer cares what happens to them. Why should people like that? Why are you so aghast when people don't?

Originally Posted by Mentar

That contradicts the "not very subtle" point you made earlier (and I also strongly disagree on the issue itself). I also don't see the "going through the motions" part at all, it's rather that atypically for the romance drama category the show does NOT go for huge displays of emotion. No teary breakdowns, no shouting matches. In that, I attribute a higher degree of realism to the show, since Japanese are much less susceptible to displaying emotion than we are. And White Album forfeited using this standard "explicit storytelling" technique so far. I do think that's about to change soon though.

Which is what I said way back after episode 2, which is why I question its use in this anime in the first place. And, if this is realism to you, you're living in a soap opera.

This isn't about implict/explicit. You're muddying the waters to attribute yourself the high ground by making the suggestion that only people who like this show "get it", which implies that you're on some sort of a higher cognitive plane than the lowly peons who are frustrated and angry at how their struggling to process the most basic details of the expansive and intricate frameworks of these characters' inner workings, which has been painted with such a fine brush that it's indiscernible to the average watcher. I can't speak for other critics of this show, but boy do I want to bring you down a peg. Why don't you get off your high horse. I'm watching the exact same show you are, I've seen all the same details about these characters that have been on display throughout this anime, their relationships, their inability to interact with each other like reasonable adults, their flimsy justifications for their actions, and I have seen virtually nothing worth liking about them. That makes this a mediocre drama. You have low standards, you like soap operas, just admit it already. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't act like a pretentious know-it-all that has a penchant for "implicit storytelling" and "subtlety" just because other people have better taste. Wait, I mean, don't act like a pretentious know-it-all especially when other people have better taste.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Yeah, that totally irks me about Mana. She assumes EVERYTHING there is to Yuki and runs with it. Just so willfully ignorant, it's ridiculous.

No idea why you're screaming at Mana so much ^_^;

Actually, Mana is one of the sharpest characters in the show. Naturally she doesn't believe Touya's claim that the famous idol Yuki Morikawa is his GF, but at the same time she has been seeing him try to meet someone, so Touya DOES have a GF - presumably with the name of Yuki. And what's wrong trying to find out who that might be? Makes sense from Mana's perspective.

If I had been in her position, I would have assumed that the girl he was shopping with was his GF. It's not THAT much of a deal either, so she mentioned it to him in a "by the way" manner. And with Haruka, she didn't _assume_, she wondered "is THAT Yuki?", in other words, she isn't sure. Fine with me aswell.

For a middle schooler she's pretty perceptive. She managed to save Haruka from the thugs quite skillfully (took alot of guts, btw), and she also correctly called Haruka's dazed moping as more than merely an issue of an "oniichan". Nothing about that is ignorant in the least.

She's clearly lonely (a recurring theme in this show by the way), and she decided to adopt Touya as her OWN oniichan. What's kinda hilarious is that she bought Touya's grandstanding tirade about coping so well after being kicked out of the house. I suspect that this will come back to bite him in the rear later.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I still do not truly understand why people criticize this show so much. It just seems to me that they wanted forced/contrived drama, much like a series such as Clannad, and those expectations have not been met.

If you have actually read some of people's concerns, it is more a problem of feeling connected to the characters, to have a reason to care about the characters. That's one of the reasons I stopped caring about the show by episode 4, because I could not feel attached to the characters. It have nothing to do with direction or storytelling quirks. I can appreciate both ways, however I have to feel something for the characters.


And can we please stop bringing Clannad in it? The way it tells its story, portray the characters and the goal of the story is way more different from White Album.

[Mentar]

There we go again...

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

It can't go for a brand of drama that requires the audience to sympathize with the characters,[...] Clannad might be contrived, but at least it bothers to develop its characters and tries to make them sympathetic.

Fine, Sorrow-K. We get it. We got it the last 3 times you said it, too. You want your romance drama precooked. You want your drama so that the show explicitly tells you when to laugh and when to cry and when to feel moe, and why. You want to be led by the hand. Fine. Fair enough. Now when will you get in return that this is not the only "right" way to handle things? When will you get that there are people who prefer to draw their OWN conclusions and make their OWN decisions how they value what happens? Will you EVER get that?

Example: Clannad. A show I'm working on too, a show I like, and so I'm certainly not unduly biased. Here, we have teary heartstring-tugging scenes when Tomoya goes into a long tirade oh how badly he has always misjudged his father. Moe bundle Ushio asks daddy why he's crying. Aww. And sure, it worked - my eyes watered up too. Nice execution. But entirely 100% precooked. There is no margin of judgment for the viewer. We're dragged along exactly like the writer wants us to. And the little doubts in the back of my head "all it took was a little talk from Baachan, and after the years of raging hatred, all of a sudden Tomoya has a total reversal of heart?" are never allowed to materialize.

The shows I like best are those which don't lead the viewer by the nose, but those that do NOT employ technical tricks to coerce the viewer to "care" in a preconceived way. Shows like Clannad do exactly that. WA does not. So what's the better show? What's the better drink? Beer, wine, fruit juice or water?

"Oh no, people don't like my favourite show, it's obviously because they can't make the effort to appreciate this show's beautiful subtlety. Oh, and they have poor social skills".

I wonder why you're reacting so angry ... chill down.

It's a simple fact that there have been alot of extremely differing interpretations of what happened and why. And just as I wrote, several comments have indicated that major parts of the episode simply haven't been understood (since you're so intent on finding flaws in the show - this is one I'd recognize). And yes, it's also a simple fact that along all those I discussed the show with, those with a higher age, life experience and yes, also social skills have had much less of these instances of "err, no, that's not what happened". Take this simply as a neutral fact, not a criticism. The show IS not simple.

Umm... you wanna accuse people of having poor social skills while you defend a show where the main character cheats on his girlfriend with her manager!? And is a compulsive liar, is ungrateful to his father and obnoxious to his friends?

I don't remember me defending Touya cheating on his girlfriend. But what would any of what an anime character does have to do with my (the viewer's) social skills? The correct answer is "nothing at all". I'm fine with whatever your personal opinion of Touya may be.

Here's my question: if you knew Touya in real life, would you want to be his friend? Because, I sure as hell wouldn't. I knew people kinda like Touya in my undergrad days, and I fairly quickly worked out that I couldn't trust them as far as I could kick them.

I doubt that I'd be very much interested in being his friend. But I do recognize certain traits of his in my friends, just like I do recognize certain traits of his in myself. But again, I'd have no problem with anyone hating him with a passion.

So what should the audience expect from this show? A series where the characters become more and more unlikable to the point where the audience disconnects from them completely and no longer cares what happens to them. Why should people like that? Why are you so aghast when people don't?

I'm not "aghast" when people don't like it - again, I'd be the first to agree that WA is a show which won't be everyone's cup of tea. But it's MY cup of tea, for reasons explained many times. And it's Reckoner's cup of tea.

I also disagree with your personal interpretation. Just because characters act in a way I dislike doesn't make me "not care" about them. What a shallow concept. Right now, I'm interested in how the show plays out for each of the characters involved. Even though Touya lost bigtime with his behavior last episode. Even though I personally don't like characters like Misaki very much. Even though Yayoi is way out of line IMHO (I'm particularly curious about her backstory that made her tick like this). Even though I pity Haruka, who has serious issues.

If you want a show where you can like all characters, for the love of god pick another show. If you don't like watching a fairly detailed setup as a neutral spectator, for the love of god look elsewhere. But your stubborn insistence to criticize an apple for not being an orange doesn't lead anywhere, in my most humble opinion.

Which is what I said way back after episode 2, which is why I question its use in this anime in the first place. And, if this is realism to you, you're living in a soap opera.

It certainly is much closer to realism than Clannad, wouldn't you agree? What we're seeing in WA is a setting which I could see happening in Real Life, no problem. It would be a bit unusual, but entirely possible. I can NOT foresee Clannad happen. If this is realism to you, you're living in a dreamland.

[Alot of furious ad hominem disposed of]

I think you simply got me wrong. Even with the brightest intellect and most awesome perception and communicative skills, it's perfectly possible to totally dislike the show. No problem in the least. I also never claimed that because I like the show and its style, I'm smarter and with higher social skills than others who don't.

What I simply recognized is that this show is _difficult_. It is very easy to miss important details (which I then later find out in discussions with friends watching the show too), it happens to me all the time. And those who do NOT have these friends and do NOT have life experience which helps you to recognize certain behaviour patters of characters in the show, it's just getting even harder. That's all.

However, what I really enjoy _is_ going through the show indepth with like-minded people. I can NOT recall which other show in the recent past really made me do that, at least not in this scope. This is the downside of Clannad-style storytelling: There isn't really much to debate over. The story tells you like it is, FULL STOP. There is no room for interpretation and judgment. WA does. Simple as that

[Sinestra]

Well since iv come this far there is no point in dropping it now so i will finish it out.

I guess im in the minority here but I personal feel that Touya's actions in episode 8 were deplorable. This just shows that shows focus on weak minded characters actually drives the story. I had respect for him each and everytime he resisted Yayoi's advances. He may be weak minded at times and oblivious to certain things but he has a strong enough sense not to seek physical comfort in another womens arms i respected this and he destroyed it. Through everything that has happened all that tough talk to Yayoi he kept trying to see Yuki and persisted in trying to do something with their relationship this episode he gave up. To go see Rina at the same work place as Yuki was not only stupid but honestly RUDE!!!

I understand feeling depressed about ones relationship and needing comfort im not going to be total bastard. However the split second moment of comfort he is seeking from Yayoi will pale to the guilt he will feel later and HE will dwell on it because thats what he does. This will not bother Yayoi because she a heartless ice queen with no emotions this business for her plain and simple and not to mention the letters she threw away. I honestly dislike her in every sense of the word she may have a nice body the lack of personality makes her unattractive to me. I find her character pitiful at best and thats me being nice a whore is a whore no matter what spin you put on it.

I did enjoy Touya's interactions with Mana and Rina though. Especially Rina's opening up to her about what her brother thinks of her and how he thinks. She mad it sound like she was a pet project of her brothers and now that shes complete she is of no more use. Yuki on the other hand still needs to be molded she is something he can craft like an artiest. This alone has given me cause to question weather he is a good person or not.

Mana still continues to intrig me by her way of speech and her mannerisms. I find it numerous out of all the girls Touya could take shopping he took her and then said "well you are a girl arent you?" when its painfully obvious shes a tomboy just look at what she stopped to look at in the store. The hunch about her using Touya as a replacement for her brother was correct as she mentions that he is not her boyfiend but her Onii-san her older brother. Shes just an interesting character especially how she got into Touya's bed ninja style by climbing up veranda lol i laughed my ass off.

well iv got nothing else to add Im still unhappy with how i feel towards majority of the characters and how i find it hard to care about most of them but the show has its own appeal besides the characters. Im looking forward to seeing Touyas reactions to what he has just done and what Yayoi will say even though whatever she says will be heartless and robotic so it wont matter since im not emotionally invested in her character.