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J4n1 · 2016-06-21, 08:41

Ygdrassil was very heavily based on DnD, so let's look at how DnD (3.5) handles monster characters.

Monsters have racial HD (Hit Dice), but they also have racial LA (Level Adjustment) to take into account their racial abilities and bonusses.
In a game, both humans and monsters start at level 1, for this to be possible, monsters racial HD and level adjustment is split, so they need to earn those hitdice and LA's through xp, gaining a fraction of the full bonusses and hitdice each level.
So it's all balanced.

But the New World is not a game, monster is going to get all, or most, of their racial hit dice and LA as soon as they reach physical maturity, and then they start piling in class levels.
On top of that, it is quite possible that the racial levels and LA will be stacked on top of class levels, instead of other way around, so monsters have just as easy/hard time to gain levels, giving them a constant edge over humans of equal experience.

For example, let's take a basic DnD (3.5) troll.
6 Hit Dice, LA +5.
Basicly, a level 11 character, meant to be faced by a team of 4 level 5 characters.
That's geared level 5 characters, facing an unarmed, unarmored troll.
Now give that troll 5 levels, and gear to match, and now those level 5 humans are facing a level 16 opponent, even if undergeared (for its level) and with lover than average health (for its level, due to LA), but still pretty though opponent to face.

Jack · 2016-06-21, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namorax

I don't understand the reasoning behind that logic...
As far as I am aware, humanity in the New World isn't getting trashed because everyone else around them is magically spawning 5-10 levels higher, it is because a level 5 Human will always loose against a level 5 monster.

No, I don't think this is the case. While it's true that a level 5 monster might have an advantage against a level 5 human (because at the entry-level the racial benefits outweigh the limited job benefits), the reason most people in the NW have trouble against monsters IS because they're simply lower-leveled.

In the New World, from my understanding, lots of monsters simply start out with more racial levels. For instance, the average Beastman is level 10, while the average Kingdom conscript is level 2-3. Taking Go Gin for example, even without training, his racial level was probably around 20-25 naturally; by acquiring the job skills of a Silver class adventurer (level 8-12), his overall level would stand somewhere in the ballpark of level 28~37. My guess is level 34, until further notice.

That being said, a human who could reach level 34 in pure job classes (in other words, someone in the realm of heroes) would be a match for Go Gin, regardless of their lack of racial levels. Clementine (who is probably level 31 or 32) would fall into the category of fighters that could compete with Go Gin, IMO.

The evidence for that is what Maruyama said on his Twitter... He said that Treasures!Gazef>Clementine>Hamsuke>Gazef... Given that we know Gazef is level 29, Hamsuke is level 30, and Clementine is somewhere above 30, this is perfectly consistent despite the fact that Hamsuke is a monster with racial base stats that outstrip humanity.

The evidence points towards, for the most part, levels being consistently balanced between races... It's just harder for humans to reach that level, because monsters have a head start via racial classes.

Jack · 2016-06-21, 10:14

OH CRAP, TRIPLE RELEASE. They finished the fanfic in one day!

Namorax · 2016-06-21, 11:28

Does that mean Go Gin was born with "26" levels of War Troll?
(Leaving aside whether or not the max Race Level is 15 just like in Ygdrasil)

Jack · 2016-06-21, 11:32

8 is the minimum for a Silver class adventurer; the average is 10 or so. I could honestly see the best among them being upward of 12.

As for the whole racial thing, that's because historically it's not just a manner of one class. There's usually "Troll", then "War Troll", etc. etc. just like Shalltear has the "Vampire" class along with the "True Vampire" class; it's a prerequisite.

So, it could very well have been "25+9" (likely) or even "20+14" (unlikely) or so.

Jack · 2016-06-21, 12:36

My rough estimate:

Troll: 15
War Troll: 10
Champion: 9

It's also possible he has two job classes, like "Champion: 5 and Fighter: 4".

J4n1 · 2016-06-21, 12:36

They don't have actual levels in the New World, those are approximate comparisons to Ygdrassil at best.

So troll is born a troll, and is as strong as a troll.
weak troll might be equivalent of 1 level troll, strongest troll might be equal to level 15 troll.
A War Troll will be at it's weakest as strong as a level 1 war troll, with prerequisite troll levels.

But trying to make sense of the new world as a game is not going to work, because it is not one, and it is not balanced, nor is it meant to be.

Jack · 2016-06-21, 12:51

The NW follows most of Yggdrasil's rules; that's why they have a class system to begin with. Honestly, we don't know what the NW even is, nor what its relation to Yggdrasil may be.

J4n1 · 2016-06-21, 13:12

I'm not sure NW has a class system, except as a crude approximation given to us through character sheets.
And if it does have a class system, then it is different from Ygdrassil one, considering we have ninjas who are not level 30, while in Ygdrassil you'd need to be level 60 to qualify for the ninja class.

Jack · 2016-06-21, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by J4n1

I'm not sure NW has a class system, except as a crude approximation given to us through character sheets.

No, classes are mentioned by NW characters and by the narrative text. (Such as Zero's Shamanic Adept class)

Quote:

And if it does have a class system, then it is different from Ygdrassil one, considering we have ninjas who are not level 30, while in Ygdrassil you'd need to be level 60 to qualify for the ninja class.

~~No, Tia and Tina aren't Ninjas--they're Assassins who call themselves Ninjas.~~<-- Actually, looking at their stat sheets, this doesn't seem to be the case. I had assumed this was the case from their awkward dialogue on the subject, but it doesn't matter; we already know some of these restrictions are void because Leinas has the Cursed Knight class. That doesn't change the fact that the overall system is nearly identical, though.

Also, in DnD, were there any class prerequisites to the Champion class?

Jorna · 2016-06-21, 15:24

Go Gin v Ainz so good! Man Titus is so lucky he has 5 Overlords.

J4n1 · 2016-06-21, 16:28

Classes are mentioned as professions.
But not sure if it is meant to be understood in the same way we do a character classes in game.
For one, i don't think wizards in NW are unable to use swords, and non cooks can cook.
Could be wrong.

Though even then, not sure it would apply to monsters and demi humans.
We know they are stronger than humans in the NW, but in Ygdrassil humans were balanced with monsters, they may have lacked the strengths monster characters had, but they also did not have their weaknesses, nor did they need to spend xp in racial levels, instead going for class levels.

Namorax · 2016-06-21, 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mongame

The NW follows most of Yggdrasil's rules; that's why they have a class system to begin with. Honestly, we don't know what the NW even is, nor what its relation to Yggdrasil may be.

I think that's a misconception that may be intended by Maruyama.
The New World is NOT like Yggdrasil. If we think back on what we know about the Six Gods and about the game Yggdrasil:
-Yggdrasil does NOT have martial arts
-Yggdrasil does NOT have anything resembling the "Wild Magic"

-New World does NOT have any classes
-New World does NOT have anything resembling the Tiered Magic of Yggdrasil

IIRC, the Six Gods were the ones who forced the Yggdrasil system of magic upon this world, with the presumed intention of helping out the humans. This probably means that they were the ones who introduced everything else that appears to be from the game.
We are looking at a world that is running two "systems" at the same time, with one being the original and the other a fan-mod/hack that is intended to skew the "game balance" in a desired direction.
We can roughly sort New World mages into the Yggdrasil system because that is what they are using. If you try to apply the same level-scale on warriors, who use martial arts (which were presumably created to fight against Yggdrasilians and also didn't exist in the game), you end up having nothing to compare them with.

The only reason we can roughly "rank" certain people is because we have a Death Knight as the baseline, and even that is limited to "is stronger" or "is weaker". You can't really apply a number to that.

Yes, Go Gin "might" be a level 34 War Troll Gladiator Champion Warlord, but for all we know he is just a bogstandard "level 1 War toll", the same way a human is a "level 1 human".

EDIT: I think I need to look up how Cocytus fought against the Lizardmen... He is practically the only Yggdrasil Warrior we have seen in action. Ainz/Momon isn't a real warrior, so he doesn't have any Yggdrasil-Warrior skills he can "activate". The way I remember the fights, they swing their weapons (skillfully) around, but they don't shout stuff like "Super Slash".

steam fish · 2016-06-21, 17:17

So... is it only me that finds it strange that no one reacts to Ainz, an undead master, using resurrection magic on the Martial Lord? I mean, they just ignored it

J4n1 · 2016-06-21, 22:02

We don't know if nobody reacts, we were not shown crowd reactions.
Part of the reason Jerky was so salty might be the resurrection, and how it might entice adventurers to leave for sorcerous kingdom.

Jack · 2016-06-21, 22:19

The text said that Ainz flew up to Jircniv "Amidst the tides of sound", so there was probably a huge reaction or at least chatter.

And yeah, Yggdrasil Warriors didn't shout the names of their attacks; neither did magic casters. Because they had consoles. In the New World, skills have to be called out--including magic.

I think your explanation was pretty close, btw. I still disagree on the idea that these characters are unquantifiable by Yggdrasil leveling, but fundamentally the New World is like running two separate systems at the same time. It's not quite like Yggdrasil, but it functions in a much more game-like way than real life as well. But it's definitely different--unlike players, people in the NW have decisive limits depending on their potential that could be well below Level 100, for instance. And they can potentially learn classes at low levels that would usually require a certain level to use, like Cursed Knight and Ninja. There's also the fact that there's new abilities like Martial Arts, which seem to have replaced Warrior Skills. However, the system of leveling and the basic structure of classes seem very similar in my eyes... After all, the NW inhabitants also have a level system that's completely consistent with Yggdrasil's levels... just x3.

For instance, Death Knights are rated 100+... Or, level 35.
Goblins are rated 3, and Ogres 15... Or, level 1 and level 5 respectively.
Evileye and Entoma are rated 150+... Or, level ~53.
According to Lakyus, once the ratings vary by 15+, victory becomes nearly impossible even with a great team... Or, in other words, if the opponent is 5 levels ahead of your team, victory is almost impossible. If you've ever played an MMO of this sort, you know this to be true as well.

And yes, the Death Knight is an excellent measuring stick as well.

My estimations are as follows:

Platinum Dragon Lord - Level ~90
Zeishi Zetsumei - Level ~75 (pure speculation)
Captain - Level 60~65
Evileye - Level 54
Rigrit - Level 45~50 (her dialogue implied that Evileye is more powerful than her, but has many exploitable weaknesses as an undead)
Dominion Authority - Level ~42 (Nigun's was probably level ~47, because it was said to have become more powerful every time it was summoned over the centuries)
Average 13 Heroes Member - Level 30~40
Go Gin - Level 34 (Hamsuke w/Martial Arts should be around here too)
Clementine - Level 31~32
Hamsuke/Giant of the East/Serpent of the West - Level ~30
Gazef - Level 29
Brain/Gagaran/Erya - Level 28
Zero/Four Knights - Level 27
Orichalcum - Level ~24
Mythril - Level ~22
Climb - Level 15 (w/Rigrit's Ring he can boost to level ~20)
Swords of Darkness members - Level 11

EDIT: Oh, to answer your question about warrior skills, yes, we've seen them. Yes, they do exist. Albedo uses them in Volume 1, Cocytus uses one in Volume 4, and Warrior Takemikazuchi uses them in the Prologue. It's true, though, that they were silently cast now that I think about it...

ChuckE · 2016-06-22, 01:27

It sounded like Albedo reproached Demiurge as he was not able to come up with a plan to vassal the Empire earlier than a month

ViciousA · 2016-06-22, 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by steam fish

So... is it only me that finds it strange that no one reacts to Ainz, an undead master, using resurrection magic on the Martial Lord? I mean, they just ignored it

Well... the narration said 'amidst the tides of sound' so the onlookers should be very surprised by it, but Ainz just didn't really care, and in case of the emperor I imagined he would think resurrection spell was not unexpected compare to magic capable of killing hundred of thousands.

Jack · 2016-06-22, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckE

It sounded like Albedo reproached Demiurge as he was not able to come up with a plan to vassal the Empire earlier than a month

Poor Demiurge. That said, can't wait for Vol.11... Shalltear's been in time-out for so long that I was beginning to miss her.

ChuckE · 2016-06-22, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack

Poor Demiurge. That said, can't wait for Vol.11... Shalltear's been in time-out for so long that I was beginning to miss her.

Yeah. Shalltear is on vacation in Dwarven kingdom with her beloved bones

2016-06-21, 22:19	Link #7616
Jack The Most Villainous Name Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Omnipresent	The text said that Ainz flew up to Jircniv "Amidst the tides of sound", so there was probably a huge reaction or at least chatter. And yeah, Yggdrasil Warriors didn't shout the names of their attacks; neither did magic casters. Because they had consoles. In the New World, skills have to be called out--including magic. I think your explanation was pretty close, btw. I still disagree on the idea that these characters are unquantifiable by Yggdrasil leveling, but fundamentally the New World is like running two separate systems at the same time. It's not quite like Yggdrasil, but it functions in a much more game-like way than real life as well. But it's definitely different--unlike players, people in the NW have decisive limits depending on their potential that could be well below Level 100, for instance. And they can potentially learn classes at low levels that would usually require a certain level to use, like Cursed Knight and Ninja. There's also the fact that there's new abilities like Martial Arts, which seem to have replaced Warrior Skills. However, the system of leveling and the basic structure of classes seem very similar in my eyes... After all, the NW inhabitants also have a level system that's completely consistent with Yggdrasil's levels... just x3. For instance, Death Knights are rated 100+... Or, level 35. Goblins are rated 3, and Ogres 15... Or, level 1 and level 5 respectively. Evileye and Entoma are rated 150+... Or, level ~53. According to Lakyus, once the ratings vary by 15+, victory becomes nearly impossible even with a great team... Or, in other words, if the opponent is 5 levels ahead of your team, victory is almost impossible. If you've ever played an MMO of this sort, you know this to be true as well. And yes, the Death Knight is an excellent measuring stick as well. My estimations are as follows: Platinum Dragon Lord - Level ~90 Zeishi Zetsumei - Level ~75 (pure speculation) Captain - Level 60~65 Evileye - Level 54 Rigrit - Level 45~50 (her dialogue implied that Evileye is more powerful than her, but has many exploitable weaknesses as an undead) Dominion Authority - Level ~42 (Nigun's was probably level ~47, because it was said to have become more powerful every time it was summoned over the centuries) Average 13 Heroes Member - Level 30~40 Go Gin - Level 34 (Hamsuke w/Martial Arts should be around here too) Clementine - Level 31~32 Hamsuke/Giant of the East/Serpent of the West - Level ~30 Gazef - Level 29 Brain/Gagaran/Erya - Level 28 Zero/Four Knights - Level 27 Orichalcum - Level ~24 Mythril - Level ~22 Climb - Level 15 (w/Rigrit's Ring he can boost to level ~20) Swords of Darkness members - Level 11 EDIT: Oh, to answer your question about warrior skills, yes, we've seen them. Yes, they do exist. Albedo uses them in Volume 1, Cocytus uses one in Volume 4, and Warrior Takemikazuchi uses them in the Prologue. It's true, though, that they were silently cast now that I think about it... Last edited by Jack; 2016-06-21 at 22:48.

2016-06-22, 01:27	Link #7617
ChuckE Provoker Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Dreamland	It sounded like Albedo reproached Demiurge as he was not able to come up with a plan to vassal the Empire earlier than a month __________________ Dominus factotum

2016-06-21, 08:41	Link #7601
J4n1 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013	Ygdrassil was very heavily based on DnD, so let's look at how DnD (3.5) handles monster characters. Monsters have racial HD (Hit Dice), but they also have racial LA (Level Adjustment) to take into account their racial abilities and bonusses. In a game, both humans and monsters start at level 1, for this to be possible, monsters racial HD and level adjustment is split, so they need to earn those hitdice and LA's through xp, gaining a fraction of the full bonusses and hitdice each level. So it's all balanced. But the New World is not a game, monster is going to get all, or most, of their racial hit dice and LA as soon as they reach physical maturity, and then they start piling in class levels. On top of that, it is quite possible that the racial levels and LA will be stacked on top of class levels, instead of other way around, so monsters have just as easy/hard time to gain levels, giving them a constant edge over humans of equal experience. For example, let's take a basic DnD (3.5) troll. 6 Hit Dice, LA +5. Basicly, a level 11 character, meant to be faced by a team of 4 level 5 characters. That's geared level 5 characters, facing an unarmed, unarmored troll. Now give that troll 5 levels, and gear to match, and now those level 5 humans are facing a level 16 opponent, even if undergeared (for its level) and with lover than average health (for its level, due to LA), but still pretty though opponent to face.

2016-06-21, 10:14	Link #7603
Jack The Most Villainous Name Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Omnipresent	OH CRAP, TRIPLE RELEASE. They finished the fanfic in one day!

2016-06-21, 11:28	Link #7604
Namorax Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014	Does that mean Go Gin was born with "26" levels of War Troll? (Leaving aside whether or not the max Race Level is 15 just like in Ygdrasil)

2016-06-21, 11:32	Link #7605
Jack The Most Villainous Name Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Omnipresent	8 is the minimum for a Silver class adventurer; the average is 10 or so. I could honestly see the best among them being upward of 12. As for the whole racial thing, that's because historically it's not just a manner of one class. There's usually "Troll", then "War Troll", etc. etc. just like Shalltear has the "Vampire" class along with the "True Vampire" class; it's a prerequisite. So, it could very well have been "25+9" (likely) or even "20+14" (unlikely) or so.

2016-06-21, 12:36	Link #7606
Jack The Most Villainous Name Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Omnipresent	My rough estimate: Troll: 15 War Troll: 10 Champion: 9 It's also possible he has two job classes, like "Champion: 5 and Fighter: 4".

2016-06-21, 12:36	Link #7607
J4n1 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013	They don't have actual levels in the New World, those are approximate comparisons to Ygdrassil at best. So troll is born a troll, and is as strong as a troll. weak troll might be equivalent of 1 level troll, strongest troll might be equal to level 15 troll. A War Troll will be at it's weakest as strong as a level 1 war troll, with prerequisite troll levels. But trying to make sense of the new world as a game is not going to work, because it is not one, and it is not balanced, nor is it meant to be.

2016-06-21, 12:51	Link #7608
Jack The Most Villainous Name Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Omnipresent	The NW follows most of Yggdrasil's rules; that's why they have a class system to begin with. Honestly, we don't know what the NW even is, nor what its relation to Yggdrasil may be.

2016-06-21, 13:12	Link #7609
J4n1 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013	I'm not sure NW has a class system, except as a crude approximation given to us through character sheets. And if it does have a class system, then it is different from Ygdrassil one, considering we have ninjas who are not level 30, while in Ygdrassil you'd need to be level 60 to qualify for the ninja class.

2016-06-21, 15:24	Link #7611
Jorna Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014	Go Gin v Ainz so good! Man Titus is so lucky he has 5 Overlords.

2016-06-21, 16:28	Link #7612
J4n1 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013	Classes are mentioned as professions. But not sure if it is meant to be understood in the same way we do a character classes in game. For one, i don't think wizards in NW are unable to use swords, and non cooks can cook. Could be wrong. Though even then, not sure it would apply to monsters and demi humans. We know they are stronger than humans in the NW, but in Ygdrassil humans were balanced with monsters, they may have lacked the strengths monster characters had, but they also did not have their weaknesses, nor did they need to spend xp in racial levels, instead going for class levels.

2016-06-21, 17:17	Link #7614
steam fish Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014	So... is it only me that finds it strange that no one reacts to Ainz, an undead master, using resurrection magic on the Martial Lord? I mean, they just ignored it

2016-06-21, 22:02	Link #7615
J4n1 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013	We don't know if nobody reacts, we were not shown crowd reactions. Part of the reason Jerky was so salty might be the resurrection, and how it might entice adventurers to leave for sorcerous kingdom.