(L) Yahari Ore no Seishun Love Come wa Machigatteiru.

[SomeChineseGuy]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

I'll never understand people who think so. Of cause, there are bad localizations (like a lot of from Funimation), but in general localization is always better than direct translation. It's just stupid to whine because translation doesn't have honorifics, "senpais", "onee-chans" and so on.

Mmmmaybe.

Just one thing though. Iroha refers to Hikki as Senpai. Just Senpai. How do you localize that?

[Nachtwandler]

There's always a way.

And I remind you that (but not in above case of cause) adapting "Japanese word X" = "English word Y" like Funimation generally does, is the wrong way. It could be different words depending on context.

[SuitUp]

Context has already been provided, is her nickname for Hikki, wich she uses as an endearing term (only for Hikki, she uses name-senpai for every other aquintance older than her, only Hikki gets the word alone) but also because she can pass it off as a normal sign of respect... So, localize it, go ahead

[YumeNoMonogatari]

[csuree]

oh shit.....I honstly think the last volume's anime (season or OVA) adaptations will come out faster than YP's translation.....
so IMO we will see the ending animated at least 2-3 years before the novel gets "officially" translated

Anyway i was thinking about a thing....How does a fan translation fall under DMCA "persecution". I mean a fan did translate it, received no pay for it, and gains nothing if people actually read the translation....How could it compete with anything?

The one who benefits from it is the author whose work will be known to a wider area of audience, and this way it will attract even more buyers.
This copyright shit is just a loophole in the law and justice system to exploit others.

If i draw a picture of an anime character does it fall under copyright laws? cuz the way this DMCA is working is like they have the right to confiscate my drawing because copyright......too complicated....

[SuitUp]

If you distritibute your drawing, even if not for profit, then yes, you're violating the intelectual property of whoever owns that character(s) rights..
And yes, translating licensed content violates the intelectual property, even if there's no profit involved.. It's retarded in many ways, but that's the way it is

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

No. It's you who don't get it. All this things don't give anything to the story itself. It's just a common way of speaking in Japan. And it should be mirrored as common way speaking in language it translated on. But people like you over-dramatize things. Honorifics are not the part of culture. Just a part of language. Japanese language, so then the setting don't demand to especially mark that it's a Japanese setting, there's no reason to put them in English translation. Generic Japanese high school is not that kind of setting.

BTW I'm not talking about the references here. I'm talking about adapting speaking without using all this Japanese words like "sempai", "nee-chan" and so on.

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

There's always a way.

And I remind you that (but not in above case of cause) adapting "Japanese word X" = "English word Y" like Funimation generally does, is the wrong way. It could be different words depending on context.

I wanted to stay out of this but you are so misinformed that I don't know what to say but to tell you that you are misinformed. I'm really terribly sorry for being so blunt.

But in order not to be obnoxious, I guess I'll say something to be constructive.

First off, honorifics are in fact part of culture. Honorific usage reflect 2 things, hierarchical status, and the concept of 'distance' (which may or may not be directly related to hierarchical status) in Asia countries, especially in Japan and Korea, and also to a somewhat less extent in Chinese cultures. The concept of 'distance' also correlates to intimacy, respect, formality and different usage of honorifics under different contexts and circumstances can carry a variety of meanings and nuances. There is of course no such concept in Western culture so it can't be helped that you find it foreign, just as we Easterners find it unthinkable to call our elder siblings by names (at least most of us if not all). It's not a mere language construct like you alluded to per se. Of course there are times when we can have an equivalent translation (such as your Majesty your Excellency for denka for example), but many a times, we can't have one. Should we localize and drop the additional stratum of meaning embedded within honorifics? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to that.
It depends on the target audience. If the publisher is reaching out to the mainstream audience, maybe yes. But if they are reaching out to the Western otakus who are already familiar with the concept of honorifics (I can see you are not one of them) and often prefer to consume their goods which are faithful to the culture of the country of origin. Maybe not.

I personally use honorifics, but that is not to say that I support literal direct translations. For example I absolutely will not make such a translation
Yukino to Yui: So what does Yuigahama-san normally do at home? (usually what's presented in Japanese)
Rather I would make it into this:
Yukino to Yui: So what do you normally do at home, Yuigahama-san?

But I personally will try to strike a balance in having natural flow while preserving cultural nuances (since I believe that's what most of my target audience wants) as best as I can without making the text overly cumbersome to read.

Regarding the 2nd point, are you able to support your claim? If you have tried translating any Eastern language to Western language or maybe vice-versa, you will find that this is not necessarily true. Maybe 60-80% of the times yes (also depends on nature of work), but there will be a 20-40% window where it's up to translator's best effort to strike that balance. Of course, there is always an option to drop the cultural nuances and references and use purely localization option and transform the lines to mean completely different things. Audience might not even realize what they are reading might not be what the author was trying to convey.

Well the debate can go on forever and I'm not making the post to voice out anti-sentiments towards full localization, but to hopefully highlight some misunderstandings you may have and which you are using unconvincingly to support your viewpoint.

Peace.

[RioFoxx]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

No. It's you who don't get it. All this things don't give anything to the story itself. It's just a common way of speaking in Japan. And it should be mirrored as common way speaking in language it translated on. But people like you over-dramatize things. Honorifics are not the part of culture. Just a part of language. Japanese language, so then the setting don't demand to especially mark that it's a Japanese setting, there's no reason to put them in English translation. Generic Japanese high school is not that kind of setting.

BTW I'm not talking about the references here. I'm talking about adapting speaking without using all this Japanese words like "sempai", "nee-chan" and so on.

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. Arguing will get us nowhere. You have the right to have an opinion as well, though, of course.

PS: Keigo is why culture and language from Japan intertwines. Call me a purist, but I prefer Excor's way to any localization. I don't need it localized, I just need to be able to read it. And perhaps for it to be re-arranged for flow in the translated language.

[TrienDarkform]

*delurks*

I can't speak specifically with regards to Japanese culture, but I can speak with regards to Chinese, which is my heritage. I may have been born and raised speaking English in school and otherwise, but Chinese was spoken in the home, and while I am essentially illiterate with regards to reading Chinese, my parents made sure we learned how to communicate with it, including all the proper honorifics and titles of respect that everyone was due, and all the traditions thereof. Different asian cultures have their variations on the theme, but the whole concept of hierarchy, and the respect that an elder receives, is deeply ingrained.

As such, the concept of hierarchy is built into the language. Anyone that is your elder in any way (be it age, position, etc.), is always addressed by their honorific, and to not do so is considered insult. To make things more complicated, terms such as 'uncle' or 'aunt' are referred to by different words depending on whether it's your father's sibling or your mother's sibling (and similarly for grandfather/grandmother). To complicate things even more, everybody is numbered by the order of birth... and to top things off, depending on whether an uncle/aunt is older or younger than your father/mother, there's a different version of uncle/aunt to use as well (ie. there are four different words for uncle: 1. uncle on father's side who is your father's elder, 2. uncle on father's side who is younger than your father, 3. uncle on mother's side who is your mother's elder, 4. uncle on mother's side who is younger than your mother. Similarly for aunt.)

For example, my father was the 3rd born of 6. His younger siblings (ie. my uncles/aunts) would (and still do) refer to him as 3rd-older-brother. My cousins who are children of his younger brothers would refer to him as 3rd-uncle-on-father's-side-who-is-older-than-father, while cousins who are children of his older brother would refer to him as 3rd-uncle-on-father's-side-who-is-younger-than-father. Obviously much less wordy, but that's the essential concept.

Trying to convey that in English or the concept of familial hierarchy to English speakers, isn't particularly easy, because the terminology simply does not exist. At least, not for the setting of standard prose, without including perhaps some lengthy explanation. The point of culture which is (can be?) lost in translation though, is that the given honorific immediately tells you where someone stands with respect to the hierarchy and where you stand in relation, and the respect they are due.

Personally, I'd prefer less localization; use footnotes as needed, especially since Oregairu includes many pop culture references.

*returns to lurking, see you in a few years*

[Heat066]

There's a God, go to Kyakka if you haven't read the update.

[GodEmperorPenguin]

Praise be to glorious Based Spyro.

[endarion88]

praise the great Spyro

[YbKWzNEb]

mind explaining please?

[Silvers]

Hey guys, kind of new to this light novel scene but if you wouldn't mind me asking;How do you guys generally back up the translation like some of you have done for Oregairu? I've tried some methods of saving the novel(all of the illustrations included), but I'm asking if there is a really effective way to do it.

Thank You

[endarion88]

spyro whatever will happen after this i will remember you as "the badass FAN translator"

[Tenzen12]

Long time no see (on this thread), I left both novels and discussion about them due dissatisfaction with Yukino development (I was convinced she grow unhealthily dependant on Hachiman) and some fights over that claim.

But after anime ended I peeked on it's thread and it seems it's not that unique opinion (supposedly even in-universe, which would means I wronged Watari a bit) anymore ...so can I ask what kind of development she went through in recent volumes?

[lijenstina]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Long time no see (on this thread), I left both novels and discussion about them due dissatisfaction with Yukino development (I was convinced she grow unhealthily dependant on Hachiman) and some fights over that claim.

But after anime ended I peeked on it's thread and it seems it's not that unique opinion (supposedly even in-universe, which would means I wronged Watari a bit) anymore ...so can I ask what kind of development she went through in recent volumes?

From when?

If I had to explain her with one word - Confused. That lack of understanding prevents her from acting or making decisions, it's the source of insecurity and settling up with the status quo. Read the Volume a Prologue 2 which is most likely Yukino's.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Long time no see (on this thread), I left both novels and discussion about them due dissatisfaction with Yukino development (I was convinced she grow unhealthily dependant on Hachiman) and some fights over that claim.

But after anime ended I peeked on it's thread and it seems it's not that unique opinion (supposedly even in-universe, which would means I wronged Watari a bit) anymore ...so can I ask what kind of development she went through in recent volumes?

If you have seen the anime, you've seen all the volumes so far

Anyways, she is confused and doesn't know what to do. Nothing much past that

[Tenzen12]

I didn't yet, I came check if it's worth to return to it in any form. Well I will check second season (I will start with Irohasu arc) now and than if I will like what I see I will catch with novels.

Thank you lijenstina, your input helped me enough for me check it and maybe became fan again.

[de_Blois]

Originally Posted by csuree

oh shit.....I honstly think the last volume's anime (season or OVA) adaptations will come out faster than YP's translation.....
so IMO we will see the ending animated at least 2-3 years before the novel gets "officially" translated

Anyway i was thinking about a thing....How does a fan translation fall under DMCA "persecution". I mean a fan did translate it, received no pay for it, and gains nothing if people actually read the translation....How could it compete with anything?

The one who benefits from it is the author whose work will be known to a wider area of audience, and this way it will attract even more buyers.
This copyright shit is just a loophole in the law and justice system to exploit others.

If i draw a picture of an anime character does it fall under copyright laws? cuz the way this DMCA is working is like they have the right to confiscate my drawing because copyright......too complicated....

You need to get the rights or permission from the author to distribute your translation. It's funny you call copyright an loophole to exploit others while trying to defend someone whom is exploiting the author.