(CR) White Album (All Episodes, 1-26)

[Maximum Penetration]

Wow, poor Touya being hated to the point of fans having him a Nice Boat end

Its can't be helped though... the writers decides his fate and actions, now wouldn't it be awesome if Touya suddenly broke the 4th wall and said "**** YOU WRITERS! IDON'T WANT THAT KIND OF END! THE PAY HERE IS NOT EVEN WORTH IT!"

Anyway, I'm expecting more drama coming up because of this episode

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Zippicus

The only real problem I have with this show is that the believability factor is pretty low. Other than that it's not bad, but then it's not great or anything either. I guess it's showing it's eroge roots or something.

How is it not believable? One of the things I like most about this show is it is realistic and believable.

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Yeah, that totally irks me about Mana. She assumes EVERYTHING there is to Yuki and runs with it. Just so willfully ignorant, it's ridiculous.

Mana is a little kid you know. lol.

Originally Posted by andiyar

Hm. Highly enjoyed the stylistic decisions made for episode 8 - the scene splits worked for the most part. Fantastic moment with Touya & Yuki sitting on the bench with 'why? why? why?' floating around above them.

I must admit I definitely don't have really any hate for Touya at the moment, not in context. He's going through a relatively unstable period in his life, emotional and otherwise, and definitely isn't thinking straight... or being straight-laced, either. He's behaving much as I expect someone in his situation to do, and indeed as people I've seen in (relatively) similar situations behave. It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out.

The "whys" on the bench were def. a nice touch. Now as for Touya.. you can justify him cheating because of what he is going through? Granted he is in a rough patch and all.. I don't think its okay for him to cheat on Yuki with Yayoi, at least not yet. I may not be making any sense though.. now that I think about it I do know someone who cheated on her boyfriend while he wasn't paying much attention to her and taking her for granted (she started it though.. I should have said no to her, but oh well ) so I guess the guy is vulnerable. Depending on what happens I may forgive him.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Fine, Sorrow-K. We get it. We got it the last 3 times you said it, too. You want your romance drama precooked. You want your drama so that the show explicitly tells you when to laugh and when to cry and when to feel moe, and why. You want to be led by the hand. Fine. Fair enough. Now when will you get in return that this is not the only "right" way to handle things? When will you get that there are people who prefer to draw their OWN conclusions and make their OWN decisions how they value what happens? Will you EVER get that?

Example: Clannad.

Spoiler for Clannad: After Story Episodes 17+:

A show I'm working on too, a show I like, and so I'm certainly not unduly biased. Here, we have teary heartstring-tugging scenes when Tomoya goes into a long tirade oh how badly he has always misjudged his father. Moe bundle Ushio asks daddy why he's crying. Aww. And sure, it worked - my eyes watered up too. Nice execution. But entirely 100% precooked. There is no margin of judgment for the viewer. We're dragged along exactly like the writer wants us to. And the little doubts in the back of my head "all it took was a little talk from Baachan, and after the years of raging hatred, all of a sudden Tomoya has a total reversal of heart?" are never allowed to materialize.

The shows I like best are those which don't lead the viewer by the nose, but those that do NOT employ technical tricks to coerce the viewer to "care" in a preconceived way. Shows like Clannad do exactly that. WA does not. So what's the better show? What's the better drink? Beer, wine, fruit juice or water?

Alright.. I'm a little confused here. How does a show tell you when to be sad? Isn't that something that comes normally from story telling? How does a show like Clannad coerce viewers? (And I added the spoiler tags you forgot).

Originally Posted by Sinestra

I guess im in the minority here but I personal feel that Touya's actions in episode 8 were deplorable. This just shows that shows focus on weak minded characters actually drives the story. I had respect for him each and everytime he resisted Yayoi's advances. He may be weak minded at times and oblivious to certain things but he has a strong enough sense not to seek physical comfort in another womens arms i respected this and he destroyed it. Through everything that has happened all that tough talk to Yayoi he kept trying to see Yuki and persisted in trying to do something with their relationship this episode he gave up. To go see Rina at the same work place as Yuki was not only stupid but honestly RUDE!!!

Physical comfort does help though. I agree that it is detestable that he succumbed to her but I think I can understand. I do have a qualm with how he gave the gift too but how could he have known Yuki would have been there? If they had been talking to each other often there would have been nothing wrong but the gift was evident that he was spending more time talking and being with Rina than Yuki. The poor guy really got set up.

[apr]

Originally Posted by Mentar

For a middle schooler she's pretty perceptive. She managed to save Haruka from the thugs quite skillfully (took alot of guts, btw), and she also correctly called Haruka's dazed moping as more than merely an issue of an "oniichan". Nothing about that is ignorant in the least.

Mana's not in middle school. She's 17 years old and in her last year of high school.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Alright.. I'm a little confused here. How does a show tell you when to be sad? Isn't that something that comes normally from story telling? How does a show like Clannad coerce viewers? (And I added the spoiler tags you forgot).

Spoiler for Clannad:

Look at the scenes. The background music. Suddenly the father doesn't look rugged and unshaven anymore, but kind and smiling, feeding candy to the boy. A Tomoya avatar is watching the flashbacks again, where a desperately trying father is shunned by his ungrateful son. Suddenly Tomoya understands EVERYTHING - oh how he wronged his father! Music intensifies. (Forgotten the violence leading to his arm injury, forgotten Tomoya's hatred over all the years, forgotten the lost position - the show doesn't want you to think of that anymore. The goal is to concentrate on the newfound understanding - that's what I mean by leading the viewers around).

Then, the later scene in the train. He's telling Ushio of memories of Nagisa. Background music again, and flashback animation of Nagisa at her kindest. His voice breaks, then halts. Usio looks up and we see tears appearing in Tomoya's eyes, and eventually flowing down his cheek. The technical execution is _awesome_ here, and it's maxed out to increase the emotional impact.

My point is that the sadness is purposely _created_ by the storytelling, with the support of technical means. It's not the natural result simply of the things that are happening themself (otherwise I'd have frowned about the extreme 180 degree reversal).

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I'm not "aghast" when people don't like it - again, I'd be the first to agree that WA is a show which won't be everyone's cup of tea. But it's MY cup of tea, for reasons explained many times. And it's Reckoner's cup of tea.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Also, I've got to admit that I'm flabbergasted how easily eben the most obvious conclusions can't seem to be made by _many_ people - more than once I read summaries in comments or blogs which were absolutely wrong. Completely misunderstood. And if that happens, I can understand that the enjoyment of the show is significantly lessened and the confusion factor fairly high.

So wait, is this just a matter of taste, or are people missing this show's grand picture because they aren't drawing so called "obvious" conclusions?

Originally Posted by Mentar

Fine, Sorrow-K. We get it. We got it the last 3 times you said it, too. You want your romance drama precooked. You want your drama so that the show explicitly tells you when to laugh and when to cry and when to feel moe, and why. You want to be led by the hand. Fine. Fair enough. Now when will you get in return that this is not the only "right" way to handle things? When will you get that there are people who prefer to draw their OWN conclusions and make their OWN decisions how they value what happens? Will you EVER get that?

Ah, goddamnit. You know, I hate this suggestion that because I don't appreciate White Album's shortcomings with characterization that I somehow prefer forced drama that blatantly tells you what and when to feel. That's just the other extreme to storytelling, and I don't appreciate it anymore than this otherwise I'd be happily entertained by Da Capo and wouldn't be writing +2000 word articles on trying to interpreting the ambiguities of Kara no Kyoukai. The difference between this and Kara no Kyoukai is that I'm pretty sure that those ambiguities have meaning, and I've seen very little in White Album to suggest the same holds true here. That, and KnK simply has more engaging and sympathetic characters than White Album, and yes, I am talking about the anime which explores morality among murderers. (The fact that I can actually state clearly what it "explores" helps too).

But I want to know what the meaning behind the ambiguities of this anime are. You can talk about Haruka's subtle expression of neglect or Yuki not performing well because things aren't going as planned with Touya in previous episodes and all the little signs that point these things out, but will it matter in a few episodes time when

Spoiler for speculation:

Touya's cheating on Yuki with Rina or Yuki's lost her job because she's so stressed about Touya that she can no longer sing or Haruka's having a full mental breakdown or Misaki's about to get raped by the drama club president, or other similarly overblown events I could plausibly speculate

, caused by the fact that the characters keep repeating the same mistakes and/or can't get their act together? Are these little details supposed to make us care about these characters by making them more sympathetic, because if anything it's doing the opposite. I've never completely understood the appeal of the soap opera, so bear with me here, but is the point of this supposed to be that, when the characters come at each other with metaphoric knives, that the audience are sufficiently disinterested in seeing anything resembling respectable behaviour that we're happily entertained by all the tears and screaming and metaphoric (but sometimes not) bloodshed? Or is the point to make all of that more believable so it's less jarring when it happens? And how is this really any less manipulative than Clannad, which, as you admit, for all its flaws, is actually effective in inciting an emotional response?

I don't want to talk about implicit/explicit storytelling, because that's not the heart of the issue here. That's an aside with tenuous relevance. The issue is that this is a soap opera with unsympathetic characters.

Originally Posted by Mentar

It's a simple fact that there have been alot of extremely differing interpretations of what happened and why. And just as I wrote, several comments have indicated that major parts of the episode simply haven't been understood (since you're so intent on finding flaws in the show - this is one I'd recognize). And yes, it's also a simple fact that along all those I discussed the show with, those with a higher age, life experience and yes, also social skills have had much less of these instances of "err, no, that's not what happened". Take this simply as a neutral fact, not a criticism. The show IS not simple.

Well, I still think this show is artificially inflating its own complexity, and, like a balloon, it's all empty inside, so we'll let time be the judge of that. We need to wait for the balloon to burst first.

Originally Posted by Mentar

It certainly is much closer to realism than Clannad, wouldn't you agree? What we're seeing in WA is a setting which I could see happening in Real Life, no problem. It would be a bit unusual, but entirely possible. I can NOT foresee Clannad happen. If this is realism to you, you're living in a dreamland.

Clannad isn't realism. The Godfather is, though. It's not a world that I'll ever experience, or hope to, which means I can't directly relate with the characters and events. So why is The Godfather so compelling while White Album is not. There are a number of reasons, but compelling characters with clear motivations and thought processes is certainly one of the important ones. If you take it purely at face value, you could say that The Godfather ended in a trainwreck/bloodbath, kinda like White Album probably will (obviously of a different kind, though). I've thought about this often, and I keep coming back to the conclusion that it's characterization and storytelling that marks the difference between a masterful drama and a forgettable one. White Album is so vague and ambiguous with its characterization, that by the time most people have figured out whether there's something unique, deep or interesting about these characters, the trainwreck will already be in full motion, by which point it'll be hard to care anymore, especially if you've taken the time to try to figure out these characters and still turned up nothing worth liking or respecting.

Anyway, I find it completely ironic that while I was writing, you wrote this post, because you should eat a plateful of your own ass after stating this:

Originally Posted by Mentar

Spoiler:

Look at the scenes. The background music. Suddenly the father doesn't look rugged and unshaven anymore, but kind and smiling, feeding candy to the boy. A Tomoya avatar is watching the flashbacks again, where a desperately trying father is shunned by his ungrateful son. Suddenly Tomoya understands EVERYTHING - oh how he wronged his father! Music intensifies. (Forgotten the violence leading to his arm injury, forgotten Tomoya's hatred over all the years, forgotten the lost position - the show doesn't want you to think of that anymore. The goal is to concentrate on the newfound understanding - that's what I mean by leading the viewers around).

Then, the later scene in the train. He's telling Ushio of memories of Nagisa. Background music again, and flashback animation of Nagisa at her kindest. His voice breaks, then halts. Usio looks up and we see tears appearing in Tomoya's eyes, and eventually flowing down his cheek. The technical execution is _awesome_ here, and it's maxed out to increase the emotional impact.

My point is that the sadness is purposely _created_ by the storytelling, with the support of technical means. It's not the natural result simply of the things that are happening themself (otherwise I'd have frowned about the extreme 180 degree reversal).

Oh no, heaven forbid that the director use techniques proven to be effective at evoking emotions in a scene where they were trying to evoke emotions.

There's a line between "effective" and "forced" and that instance of Clannad is no where near it. You could have picked a million other examples of forced drama in anime, but you picked one where they managed to implement the techniques they used with an almost impeccably deft hand. But that moment wasn't just made by a few well chosen camera angles and good use of music. Those things enhanced the emotional power of the moment, but the moment was in the making over numerous episodes worth of character development in the lead character. Are you suggesting that a more "raw" approach to storytelling would have made that scene more emotionally affecting? I think it's clear how this is just about impossible. Is attempting to be emotionally affecting a bad thing in the first place, or an inferior thing compared to the "let's just watch these characters interact" approach of White Album? Are you criticizing Clannad for attempting to do something... and essentially succeeding at it? If you are, now who's criticizing apples for not being oranges. White Album hasn't succeeded at diddly-squat at this stage, IMO, except painting varyingly repulsive characters (as you said, you probably wouldn't be friends with Touya), least of all being emotionally evocative (one of many reasonable criteria for drama), so I still maintain that I'm well within right to criticize it.

In this instance, Clannad doesn't coerce anyone, it's effective because it uses its techniques with a guiding hand, rather than a forceful one. Sure, it's easy to discern the intention of the creators after the fact, but within the moment itself, were you thinking about the volume of music and choice of camera angle, or were you thinking about what was happening to the characters on screen? Because that's the difference between "forced" and "effective" drama, IMO.

[Mentar]

Alot of good stuff from Sinestra.

Originally Posted by Sinestra

I guess im in the minority here but I personal feel that Touya's actions in episode 8 were deplorable. This just shows that shows focus on weak minded characters actually drives the story. I had respect for him each and everytime he resisted Yayoi's advances. He may be weak minded at times and oblivious to certain things but he has a strong enough sense not to seek physical comfort in another womens arms i respected this and he destroyed it. Through everything that has happened all that tough talk to Yayoi he kept trying to see Yuki and persisted in trying to do something with their relationship this episode he gave up. To go see Rina at the same work place as Yuki was not only stupid but honestly RUDE!!!

Well, he didn't know that he'd meet Yuki there. Remember? He was shellshocked to see her there (in thoughtspeak: "Why is Yuki at Rina's workplace? Why is she singing her song?"). And I believe you're clearly with the majority if you're ticked off by his actions in ep8.

I believe that one of the key sentences in episode 08 was Touya’s “Yuki… she’s like air”. That’s pretty much how he treats her. Taking her for granted. He likes her as a concept, as the cute idol, as his “everyday”. But so far, he isn’t putting in any effort whatsoever to maintain the relationship, because, why should he? Yuki is just THERE. She always was. And he doesn’t grasp so far that unless he’s getting his sh*t together, she won’t be much longer. I suspect that he’ll learn that living without this “air” will be quite hard very soon. It’s the old saying: You don’t recognize the value of something until it’s gone…

I understand feeling depressed about ones relationship and needing comfort im not going to be total bastard. However the split second moment of comfort he is seeking from Yayoi will pale to the guilt he will feel later and HE will dwell on it because thats what he does. This will not bother Yayoi because she a heartless ice queen with no emotions this business for her plain and simple and not to mention the letters she threw away. I honestly dislike her in every sense of the word she may have a nice body the lack of personality makes her unattractive to me. I find her character pitiful at best and thats me being nice a whore is a whore no matter what spin you put on it.

Possibly so. Maybe I'm wrong, but I kinda smell a bit more of backstory to her. For the time being I'll stick with my "former celebrity herself, ruined by poor management, vowing not to make the same mistake" theory. Because somehow "ice queen" alone doesn't quite explain her behavior, IMHO. There must be something driving her.

I did enjoy Touya's interactions with Mana and Rina though. Especially Rina's opening up to her about what her brother thinks of her and how he thinks. She mad it sound like she was a pet project of her brothers and now that shes complete she is of no more use. Yuki on the other hand still needs to be molded she is something he can craft like an artiest. This alone has given me cause to question weather he is a good person or not.

Too soon to call, I think. He's obviously excellent in his field of expertise (music). Whether or not he's a "good" person... hard to tell. But I suspect that Rina will be disappointed if she hopes for emotional support from him.

Mana still continues to intrig me by her way of speech and her mannerisms. I find it numerous out of all the girls Touya could take shopping he took her and then said "well you are a girl arent you?" when its painfully obvious shes a tomboy just look at what she stopped to look at in the store. The hunch about her using Touya as a replacement for her brother was correct as she mentions that he is not her boyfiend but her Onii-san her older brother. Shes just an interesting character especially how she got into Touya's bed ninja style by climbing up veranda lol i laughed my ass off.

I assume you mean Haruka instead of Mana. Whether or not her dependency of Touya is romantic in nature or merely an "oniichan surrogate" - we can't be sure yet. In effect it doesn't make much of a difference though. She sure goes cold turkey if she can't touch base with Touya for 2 days. Very disturbing, very unhealthy.

well iv got nothing else to add Im still unhappy with how i feel towards majority of the characters and how i find it hard to care about most of them but the show has its own appeal besides the characters. Im looking forward to seeing Touyas reactions to what he has just done and what Yayoi will say even though whatever she says will be heartless and robotic so it wont matter since im not emotionally invested in her character.

If you asked me if there was any character I really _liked_, it would be hard for me. Rina would come closest, I think, because I feel drawn to her personality and thinking patterns. She's got a strong personality, is generally helpful if a bit meddlesome, fairly perceptive, grown-up and obviously a capable professional. At the same time, she's got a vulnerable side aswell, and I believe that we'll see some less-admirable side of her too once the battle with Yuki fully kicks in.

Except for her, who I consider mostly-positive, all characters have their share of flaws. I think they all have positive and negative sides to them, which strikes me as fairly realistic indeed. The unusual thing is that the anime doesn't entice us to pick any sides, and based on what the characters do, it's almost impossible to build strong emotional bonds either. Except for Rina, there's noone I could say I'm "rooting" for, and I already have the sinking feeling that she'll have a sad and heartbreak ending (a shame). But then again, I have a tendency to empathize with the losers much more than with the winners.

But personally I'm convinced that this is a feature rather than a bug. Because if the anime really INTENDED us to pick sides by now, and to root for someone, it successfully managed to conceal that.

[prototype_sky]

I'm confused at why people are angry at Touya

Is it because he refuses to be direct about ending things with Yuki
becuase isn't a culture thing to not be direct?
It appears that after his talk with Rina he tried to indirectly break up with her by avoiding her or is it because he is throwing in the towel where Yuki's relationship is concerned?

Also is Yoyai's punishment the result of him showing his presence in front of Yuki and now Yoyai will use the harsh direct approach to send the message to Yuki that its over?

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

How is it not believable? One of the things I like most about this show is it is realistic and believable.

Well basically almost everything everyone does is wrong, seemingly for the sake of having the characters do the wrong thing to allow drama to ensue. I mean if someone tried to pass this story off as a real life incident, nobody would believe them.

[prototype_sky]

Originally Posted by Zippicus

Well basically almost everything everyone does is wrong, seemingly for the sake of having the characters do the wrong thing to allow drama to ensue. I mean if someone tried to pass this story off as a real life incident, nobody would believe them.

What do you mean everything everyone does is wrong?

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Those things enhanced the emotional power of the moment, but the moment was in the making over numerous episodes worth of character development in the lead character.

Originally Posted by Zippicus

Well basically almost everything everyone does is wrong, seemingly for the sake of having the characters do the wrong thing to allow drama to ensue. I mean if someone tried to pass this story off as a real life incident, nobody would believe them.

A lot of it is what people would do. Don't forget.. people are stupid - especially college kids angsting about life and not communicating with each other.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

So wait, is this just a matter of taste, or are people missing this show's grand picture because they aren't drawing so called "obvious" conclusions?

You're conflating two entirely unrelated points again. It's a matter of taste whether or not you LIKE the show. But it's a fact that there's a (to me surprisingly high) number of people who sum up parts this show incorrectly which are fairly clear. I'm not talking about the subtle things one can overlook, but gross misinterpretations of actions. And it is fairly obvious that if you're already having difficulties with the obvious things, debating about the finer points is even harder.

That's just the other extreme to storytelling, and I don't appreciate it anymore than this otherwise I'd be happily entertained by Da Capo and wouldn't be writing +2000 word articles on trying to interpreting the ambiguities of Kara no Kyoukai. The difference between this and Kara no Kyoukai is that I'm pretty sure that those ambiguities have meaning, and I've seen very little in White Album to suggest the same holds true here. That, and KnK simply has more engaging and sympathetic characters than White Album, and yes, I am talking about the anime which explores morality among murderers. (The fact that I can actually state clearly what it "explores" helps too).

That made me chuckle ... but I'm glad that you chose this example.

I guess you are aware that there's been huge discussions in the japanese anime/manga/novel world about Nasu's works: There are some who insist that he's a brilliant writer with amazing insight who can induce deep thoughts and meaning in his novels. And there are some who consider him a babbling pretentious idiot. Now tell me: Who is right?

My personal opinion is somewhere in the middle here: I think that KnK5 was excellent (while I was annoyed by KnK1), but I can't quite share your optimism about the depth of the questions raised. I felt genuinely entertained, so I didn't mind the philosophical babble much - so I simply let it pass me by. Did I miss things by doing so? Possibly, but I gained no real access to it. Which however illustrates the bigger point here:

At the core of my disagreements with you is your tiring tendency to elevate your own personal opinion on things to the level of objective truth. It isn't. Simply because it doesn't adhere to your preferences does not make a show good or bad. Please develop the courtesy to accept that others may draw enjoyment and insight out of things that you don't gain access to. And please refrain from your traditional broad-sweeping condemning criticisms about what a show does not or is not. Rather, concentrate on what a show does or is.

Fair enough?

But I want to know what the meaning behind the ambiguities of this anime are. [...] Are these little details supposed to make us care about these characters by making them more sympathetic, because if anything it's doing the opposite.

Wrong question in my point of view. These little details are supposed to give us insight into what is happening and why things are happening. It's giving us clues what's making the characters tick, and what their motivations are. The way WA is handling things indicates that it's been using technical means very sparingly when it comes to directly elicit/provoke emotions in the viewer (offhand I could only think of Haruka's breakdown, scratching at the door).

Again, you seem to expect that it should be the anime's focus to "make characters sympathetic" to us. I would contest that already. It's the usual way of doing things, but I find it refreshing that it does NOT try to influence my decision whether or not I like a character or a character's actions. What you seem to criticize here as neglect is what I perceive as a refreshing CHANGE here.

Could you please confirm or deny that you accept that as a valid point of view? And if yes, then to please respect that? Because if not, let's just end the discussion here instead of creating walls of tl;dr text. If yes, I'll continue to respond to your remaining points.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Mentar

You're conflating two entirely unrelated points again. It's a matter of taste whether or not you LIKE the show. But it's a fact that there's a (to me surprisingly high) number of people who sum up parts this show incorrectly which are fairly clear. I'm not talking about the subtle things one can overlook, but gross misinterpretations of actions. And it is fairly obvious that if you're already having difficulties with the obvious things, debating about the finer points is even harder.

Examples of what we may overlooking or misinterpreting?

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by prototype_sky

What do you mean everything everyone does is wrong?

I mean that the people in the show are operating outside of "normal" human interpersonal relations. Which in and of itself isn't a problem provided we see the justification for such actions, but they haven't really bothered to do that in this case. And to top it all off none of the people in the show seem to be able to discern the potential consequences of their actions, or at least we haven't been shown those particular moral dilemma scenes.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

A lot of it is what people would do. Don't forget.. people are stupid - especially college kids angsting about life and not communicating with each other.

I'll say that a lot of it is what people could do which is quite a bit different from what people would do. I mean I could jump off a bridge, that doesn't mean I would do it.

[prototype_sky]

Its true this feels like taking a comprehension class.

Lots of stuff in episode 8 isn't clear
Haruka says Touya = Brother to her while Mana challenges this and says Touya = Boyfriend to Haruka. Huraku then proceeds to invades Touya's bed .

So what is Touya really to Haruka
Brother
BoyFriend
Friend
All of the Above

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by prototype_sky

I'm confused at why people are angry at Touya

Is it because he refuses to be direct about ending things with Yuki
becuase isn't a culture thing to not be direct?
It appears that after his talk with Rina he tried to indirectly break up with her by avoiding her or is it because he is throwing in the towel where Yuki's relationship is concerned?

Also is Yoyai's punishment the result of him showing his presence in front of Yuki and now Yoyai will use the harsh direct approach to send the message to Yuki that its over?

Touya's behavior and what he did with Yayoi seems to be part of whats bugging people about him not to mention him being wishy washy with just about everything. If he was intending to break up with Yuki he should have to just done so not avoid her. To me personally i find him a coward and and shallow at that. He puts up a good front but when push comes to shove he caves in. The reason why I personally dislike him is because he displays pretty much every characteristic i hate in people. Basically he has just cheated on Yuki yes he cheated because he has not broken up with her and Yuki has no clue as to what has transpired.

Hes not beyond redemption though but will we get it?

[DragoZERO]

I watched it again just now and it didn't help. The only thing I picked up on what that Mana's story was about Touya (don't know why I didn't get that the first time, its obvious, lol).

Originally Posted by Zippicus

I mean that the people in the show are operating outside of "normal" human interpersonal relations. Which in and of itself isn't a problem provided we see the justification for such actions, but they haven't really bothered to do that in this case. And to top it all off none of the people in the show seem to be able to discern the potential consequences of their actions, or at least we haven't been shown those particular moral dilemma scenes.




I'll say that a lot of it is what people could do which is quite a bit different from what people would do. I mean I could jump off a bridge, that doesn't mean I would do it.

So people in real life act knowing full well of the consequences? I don't think so. And could and would is subjective at this point. Far too many people cheat on each other and that's what Touya is now doing.

Originally Posted by prototype_sky

Its true this feels like taking a comprehension class.

Lots of stuff in episode 8 isn't clear
Haruka says Touya = Brother to her while Mana challenges this and says Touya = Boyfriend to Haruka. Huraku then proceeds to invades Touya's bed .

So what is Touya really to Haruka
Brother
BoyFriend
Friend
All of the Above

Her invading his bed is just because she misses him I think. I think he is more a platonic friend than a romantic one at this point.

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by prototype_sky

Its true this feels like taking a comprehension class.

Lots of stuff in episode 8 isn't clear
Haruka says Touya = Brother to her while Mana challenges this and says Touya = Boyfriend to Haruka. Huraku then proceeds to invades Touya's bed .

So what is Touya really to Haruka
Brother
BoyFriend
Friend
All of the Above

It's a muddled combination of all three. He is a boy.. they are childhood friends, and still not over her own brother's death he seems to have taken that spot to her. I haven't seen her interact really with anyone else. She is very emotionally attached to him. 'Puppy' is kind of fitting.

[DragoZERO]

Oh yeah.. I don't know if anyone else mentioned this but Yayoi started right off with the tongue. So in his defense, she played her cards really well.

[Ascaloth]

@Sorrow & Mentar,

Wow....I admitted earlier that I'm taking an almost-sadistic pleasure in watching you two rip each other apart, but even I have to say this; can we tone down the vitriol here, please? It's crossing the line from 'entertaining' to 'just plain disturbing'.

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

So people in real life act knowing full well of the consequences? I don't think so. And could and would is subjective at this point. Far too many people cheat on each other and that's what Touya is now doing.

I'm not specifically talking about Touya, although he is included with everyone by default. I actually find Yayoi the one not thinking about the consequences here. I mean Touya can just break up and move on, that kind of thing happens every day. Yayoi has to maintain a professional relationship with Yuki, which might be kind of hard if she succeeds in stealing her boyfriend. Not to mention what any of this could possibly do to Yuki's performance at work.