AnimeSuki Forums

Flying Dagger · 2013-03-07, 19:32

GSL actually motivated me to sleep much earlier so I can wake up to watch the good matches.
It really fucks with my schedule when they do early boardcast with a match that I want to watch: since its impossible for me to stay up then wake up in 2 hrs to watch the 2nd set.

Man, IEM getting all the hype as its the only HotS server running. Watched MVP vs stephano early in the morning and the proxy reaper rush reminds me a lot of early-WoL IEM where terrans just spam reapers vs zerg.

Sure they do a lot less dmg, but they pretty much have free reign over your drones until you can get a queen out: and by that time MVP had almost enough reaper to kill off the queen: good thing stepahno made like 20 lings to respond to those 4 reapers.

Hooves · 2013-03-07, 21:05

My response to everything - More zerglings!

Flying Dagger · 2013-03-07, 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooves

My response to everything - More zerglings!

No! Destructable rocks!
in IEM Someone accidentally right click on the new rocks (in place of neutral depots) and their reaper shot at it instead of jumping down.... causing him to lose his reaper and the game...

Sugetsu · 2013-03-08, 00:17

Noob question here, but how comes i have never seen a terran player who uses battle cruises? They were such a powerful unit in SC1... I used to mass them back then

Archon_Wing · 2013-03-08, 00:26

Starcraft is about time and cost effectiveness. Battlecruisers have neither. If it arrives too late and you get wiped out, it is useless. If you win a battle but waste too much resources, you will die.

Ithekro · 2013-03-08, 00:30

Only times I see BCs are in very long games, silly games (saw it once where it was BC defense verses Sunken Colony/Spore Colony rush cheese. Neither player wanted to win that match because they didn't want to face the next guy in the semifinals, but wanted to lose to face the easier guy), or Total Biscuit's battlecruiser "cheese" build (2 BCs in less than 8 minutes), which is techically not cheese as he has the ability to still defend, but it is weird enough to sometimes work if they don't know its coming.

The are powerful, but zerg flyers can bring them down cheaply and Protass have ways to nuetralize them. Usually, if you are making a BC, you can do everything you need to do cheaper with more of something else.

Sugetsu · 2013-03-08, 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Starcraft is about time and cost effectiveness. Battlecruisers have neither. If it arrives too late and you get wiped out, it is useless. If you win a battle but waste too much resources, you will die.

Aren't they like super powerful units? why not mass produce them and then do some good micro to keep them alive?

I just hate it that all I see are zerg players everywhere and all of the zerg's units are actually used in game. Isn't it a serious design flaw when battle cruises are not cost effective to be used in a match?

Archon_Wing · 2013-03-08, 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Aren't they like super powerful units? why not mass produce them and then do some good micro to keep them alive?

I just hate it that all I see are zerg players everywhere and all of the zerg's units are actually used in game. Isn't it a serious design flaw when battle cruises are not cost effective to be used in a match?

Well the thing is that the BCs are the end of the tech tree. Merely sinking resources into just the ability to build BCs puts you at a disadvantage.

Also, Battlecruisers are slow so even if you get a few out, your base will be in ruins even if you can keep them alive.

And as for it being a flaw, I'm not qualified to comment, but I think Terran is just badly designed.

Ithekro · 2013-03-08, 00:38

Usually one doesn't have time to deploy BCs. To do so usually means you have to play defensively, and compeditive Starcraft 2 doesn't let you do that very often.

Just like how you would almost never see Protass Carriers used in a match. I think I only saw them used once in a massive formation, and that was only because they's been fighting for like half and hour or more in a ground fight and the opponents defenses were set up to handle a ground war...not masses of fighters.

In Starcraft (1) I use to play defensively with Terran all the time. I got at least reasonably good at hold off Zerg with bunkers, towers, and tanks until I could produce masses of BCs and Valkeries to go hunting. It took a lot to stop a ball of 8 BCs with 8 Valks in support.

Duo Maxwell · 2013-03-08, 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Aren't they like super powerful units? why not mass produce them and then do some good micro to keep them alive?

The keyword here is "too late". The opponents don't stand there waiting for you to mass produce them.

Sugetsu · 2013-03-08, 00:50

Well I think it is a serious design flaw when certain units, such a BCs are never used in competitive game play. The same goes for protos' carriers... The zergs are over used and all of their units are utilized... but certain protos or terran units are almost always excluded. No wonder SC2 is actually a zerg fest.

Archon_Wing · 2013-03-08, 01:01

There are always going to be units that are suboptimal in any metagame. What's important is that each unit has a certain niche. This is just something only experienced players can understand.

Ithekro · 2013-03-08, 01:06

You almost never see Ultralisks.

Sugetsu · 2013-03-08, 01:19

Actually I do see ultralisks pretty frequently; mostly against Terran players.

Who · 2013-03-08, 02:11

Ultralisks are brutal especially if you can trade an air army efficiently with a Terran player and most of their barracks are invested into reactors.

But with the bio-hellion into bio tank styles lately, going ultra is riskier unless you have a advantage going into Hive tech

oompa loompa · 2013-03-08, 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

You almost never see Ultralisks.

Actually, ultralisks are pretty common in all 3 matchups. You don't see BC's cos they are hard-countered way too easily for their cost. vikings for terran, voids for toss (now tempests counter them REALLY hard), and corruptors for zerg. They used to be deployed late-game tvt back in the day to break tank sieges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Well I think it is a serious design flaw when certain units, such a BCs are never used in competitive game play. The same goes for protos' carriers... The zergs are over used and all of their units are utilized... but certain protos or terran units are almost always excluded. No wonder SC2 is actually a zerg fest.

carriers have found their way into the sky-toss metagame. Another factor is, until and unless terrans are faced with an unwinnable strategy (which they haven't ever been) there is no need to change the current metagame, especially considering BC's are at the very end of the tech tree. Case in point: ravens. It took SO long for these awesome units to be used, and only now with HoTS are they being used more. and while zergs are winning now, historically im pretty sure they're the weakest race by win %. I remember when WoL came out, zergs were getting steamrolled. Now, again with HoTS zergs are getting steam rolled. The metagame is volatile

Kyuu · 2013-03-08, 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Starcraft is about time and cost effectiveness. Battlecruisers have neither. If it arrives too late and you get wiped out, it is useless. If you win a battle but waste too much resources, you will die.

Same reason why Carriers aren't arriving either... costs too much, takes too long to make 'em.

Waven · 2013-03-08, 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Same reason why Carriers aren't arriving either... costs too much, takes too long to make 'em.

White-Ra might disagree

Ithekro · 2013-03-08, 14:38

White-Ra is a special case, with "Special tactics"

Flying Dagger · 2013-03-09, 17:52

Didn't really see any major skytoss game in the IEM matches that I managed to catch.

Void vs Carrier vs Tempest seem to all fill a somewhat "similar" role.

Carriers still does decent damage and interceptors can be use to confuse the AI: I think the main problem with carriers would be how their attacks scale. Unless you start off with a skytoss build off the bat (is it possible in HotS?), you are most likely going to be behind on upgrades with carrier attack vs enemy armor, which is one giant window of vulnerability while you catch up on upgrades.

Voids with the photon overcharge seem to just melt away armored units, I think voids will be the staple unit vs armor.

Tempest seem rather "slow". I think we are to get 1 or 2 of those and use them against siege lines or against broodlords to push the opponent back. Not a unit to rely too much on when defending (ie: if I am behind?) as carriers probably will still do more damage. I wonder if their amazing range will eventually be used by protoss players to snipe key units like infestors or ghosts.

2013-03-08, 00:17	Link #7964
Sugetsu Kurumada's lost child Join Date: Nov 2003	Noob question here, but how comes i have never seen a terran player who uses battle cruises? They were such a powerful unit in SC1... I used to mass them back then __________________ "If you educate people, you cannot control them." ~Jacque Fresco

2013-03-08, 00:30	Link #7966
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Only times I see BCs are in very long games, silly games (saw it once where it was BC defense verses Sunken Colony/Spore Colony rush cheese. Neither player wanted to win that match because they didn't want to face the next guy in the semifinals, but wanted to lose to face the easier guy), or Total Biscuit's battlecruiser "cheese" build (2 BCs in less than 8 minutes), which is techically not cheese as he has the ability to still defend, but it is weird enough to sometimes work if they don't know its coming. The are powerful, but zerg flyers can bring them down cheaply and Protass have ways to nuetralize them. Usually, if you are making a BC, you can do everything you need to do cheaper with more of something else. __________________

2013-03-08, 00:38	Link #7969
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Usually one doesn't have time to deploy BCs. To do so usually means you have to play defensively, and compeditive Starcraft 2 doesn't let you do that very often. Just like how you would almost never see Protass Carriers used in a match. I think I only saw them used once in a massive formation, and that was only because they's been fighting for like half and hour or more in a ground fight and the opponents defenses were set up to handle a ground war...not masses of fighters. In Starcraft (1) I use to play defensively with Terran all the time. I got at least reasonably good at hold off Zerg with bunkers, towers, and tanks until I could produce masses of BCs and Valkeries to go hunting. It took a lot to stop a ball of 8 BCs with 8 Valks in support. __________________

2013-03-08, 00:50	Link #7971
Sugetsu Kurumada's lost child Join Date: Nov 2003	Well I think it is a serious design flaw when certain units, such a BCs are never used in competitive game play. The same goes for protos' carriers... The zergs are over used and all of their units are utilized... but certain protos or terran units are almost always excluded. No wonder SC2 is actually a zerg fest. __________________ "If you educate people, you cannot control them." ~Jacque Fresco

2013-03-08, 01:06	Link #7973
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	You almost never see Ultralisks. __________________

2013-03-07, 19:32	Link #7961
Flying Dagger 大巧不工 Join Date: Dec 2003	GSL actually motivated me to sleep much earlier so I can wake up to watch the good matches. It really fucks with my schedule when they do early boardcast with a match that I want to watch: since its impossible for me to stay up then wake up in 2 hrs to watch the 2nd set. Man, IEM getting all the hype as its the only HotS server running. Watched MVP vs stephano early in the morning and the proxy reaper rush reminds me a lot of early-WoL IEM where terrans just spam reapers vs zerg. Sure they do a lot less dmg, but they pretty much have free reign over your drones until you can get a queen out: and by that time MVP had almost enough reaper to kill off the queen: good thing stepahno made like 20 lings to respond to those 4 reapers.

2013-03-08, 01:19	Link #7974
Sugetsu Kurumada's lost child Join Date: Nov 2003	Actually I do see ultralisks pretty frequently; mostly against Terran players. __________________ "If you educate people, you cannot control them." ~Jacque Fresco

2013-03-08, 02:11	Link #7975
Who Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: NY, USA Age: 33	Ultralisks are brutal especially if you can trade an air army efficiently with a Terran player and most of their barracks are invested into reactors. But with the bio-hellion into bio tank styles lately, going ultra is riskier unless you have a advantage going into Hive tech

2013-03-08, 14:38	Link #7979
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	White-Ra is a special case, with "Special tactics" __________________

2013-03-09, 17:52	Link #7980
Flying Dagger 大巧不工 Join Date: Dec 2003	Didn't really see any major skytoss game in the IEM matches that I managed to catch. Void vs Carrier vs Tempest seem to all fill a somewhat "similar" role. Carriers still does decent damage and interceptors can be use to confuse the AI: I think the main problem with carriers would be how their attacks scale. Unless you start off with a skytoss build off the bat (is it possible in HotS?), you are most likely going to be behind on upgrades with carrier attack vs enemy armor, which is one giant window of vulnerability while you catch up on upgrades. Voids with the photon overcharge seem to just melt away armored units, I think voids will be the staple unit vs armor. Tempest seem rather "slow". I think we are to get 1 or 2 of those and use them against siege lines or against broodlords to push the opponent back. Not a unit to rely too much on when defending (ie: if I am behind?) as carriers probably will still do more damage. I wonder if their amazing range will eventually be used by protoss players to snipe key units like infestors or ghosts.