2011-11-25, 03:48 | Link #61 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Are there? 2006 still has the records for the most tv shows and the most shows overall. 2006 and 2007 both have more 3+ ep shows than any other years. 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 are the years with the most 20+ ep shows (2010 is below 1998 and 1999). So no, there aren't really more shows (at least not in 2008-2010). And there certainly isn't more play time, because shows have gotten shorter on average. Late 90s anime ≠ early/mid 2000s anime ≠ current anime Quote:
Unfortunately, it isn't that easy. You will always end up going back and forth on something subjective. For example, I would say that one of the major factors is the increase in popularity of young female characters who are targeted at 20-something men, and are not relatable or very interesting. The top sales lists provide some evidence of the first part because there are lots of seinen shows starring young girls. However, whether or not the characters are relatable or interesting enough to justify their starring role, or whether their starring role was earned only by the archetype they fit, is subjective. And it will always be subjective. Last edited by Ermes Marana; 2011-11-25 at 23:00. |
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2011-11-25, 04:51 | Link #63 |
=^^=
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Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
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Oh yea. That does count as Sci-fi, doesn't it?
Well, to be more more specific -- I'm looking more towards the space travel sub-set to sci. fi. then. Spaceships. Traveling to other planets, etc. That kind of stuff. Even better... space travel with hot chicks... like Kiddy Grade. In any case, many of the genres enjoyed in previous past -- were phased out. They currently do not make as much money as... all these "moe" series. After all, just look at how audiences respond to "moe" series. They go bat crazy over them and shell out the money accordingly. I mean, one way to compete against this is to come up with some... awesome story. Steins; Gate being a very good example of that.
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2011-11-25, 04:57 | Link #64 | |||
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So basically you're saying "I framed the argument wrong", but the context in my mind was the previous thread. What context of change do you want to talk about? Quote:
On the other hand... Quote:
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2011-11-25, 08:07 | Link #65 | |
18782+18782=37564
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Location: InterWebs
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I'd also like to add, being able to enjoy "great stories with deep plots and twists" doesn't have to mean being unable to enjoy "mindless fanservice shows", or vice versa. I get why the two genres need to be separated, but I don't get why the one watching also need to have the dichotomy. I can enjoy one as much as I enjoy the other. From what I gather, people refer to "moe" from the art-style or archetypal personalities. The art-style is clearly one of the most obvious change in anime industry, but liking it or not is purely subjective imo so nothing from me there. As for archetype personalities, I don't get the hate on it. I'd say it's impossible to stray away from "archetypes" since I haven't seen one character that doesn't have even one of them (but it might be just me, so please prove me wrong).
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2011-11-25, 14:57 | Link #66 | |
Gamilas Falls
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Well, there is Space Battleship Yamato. There was an anime movie in 2009 and there will be a series in 2012. There is a CGI Captain Harlock movie coming out, though I don't know when. Though there are usually only one or two hot chicks in these shows.
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2011-11-25, 22:39 | Link #67 | |
Onee-Chan Power~!
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So my point is that there is no such thing as a 'definitive' moe series as being apart from basically anime as a whole, making the use of the term a moot point.
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2011-11-26, 00:13 | Link #68 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
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Yes, K-On! (an oft used example by "anti-moe" self-declared people as 'evil') is actually both popular with both sexes and is quietly trundling into mainstream acceptance both in Japan and in North America.
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2011-11-26, 00:34 | Link #69 | |
Japanese Culture Fan
Join Date: Nov 2008
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Age: 33
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I can't comment on how much anime has changed due to lack of experience with pre-2000 anime, but I'll say that I enjoy it very much for what it is now. I was introduced to anime with Rurouni Kenshin in 1999 or 2000, but I hardly watched much beyond Pokemon until 2006, when I broke into Ghibli films. Still, I didn't even start getting into the contemporary anime craze until 2008. That's why I'm so tolerant of recent trends: this is *my* generation of anime. Nothing against sci-fi action, but I'd rather see more cute, heartwarming slice-of-life or romance series than hardcore dystopian sci-fi action series. That's just my personal taste.
I'm most accustomed to the typically "soft", clean, occasionally childish art style of current anime, and I'm generally more attracted to characters in that art style, such as Mysu and Akiko, than I am to those in the "edgier", rough art style like with Myung Fang Long and Faye Valentine. Of course, this is just in general; there are plenty of exceptions. However, like a lot of other anime fans, I do wish there was more variety. It would be nice to have more anime like Macross Plus, Texhnolyze, Monster, and even Madoka Magica being released among modern anime. Quote:
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2011-11-26, 00:56 | Link #70 |
#1 Akashiya Moka Fan
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Based on the OP, and my own growing frustration with anime, I'd say the following are what have taken place in terms of "perceived moe""
Change from plot-driven to character-driven Change from older-looking characters to younger-looking characters I grew up on the "younger kids" anime of the late 90's and early 00's, which are pretty much action-driven with some character development, even if the development was based on what we now call cliches. Which is why, in my personal opinion, a lot of the more recent anime has gone downhill. My personal definition of moe is "cute girls A) doing cute things (I'm going to be the ass who uses K-on as the example here) or B)kicking ass (Strike Witches)". Now, I can tolerate this to a certain degree... but not when the entire damned show is about either of the above. As I said, I grew up on the action-orientated stuff of the late 90's/early 2000's, and the biggest change I've seen between now and then that is my personal hatred is... lack of a strong male lead. Granted, a lot of my shows tend to be harem shows... and they've changed a lot too. In the original harems (Tenchi, for example), sure, the girls can kick a ton of ass, but Tenchi himself was just as powerful, or as often hinted, perhaps even more so. But, it's gradually become a case of the girls do a lot of fighting (so that there is sexual fanservice galore), while the most the male lead can do is stumble into perverted situations (which further adds to the fanservice). But I digress with harems... I'm sure that many of us can agree that we want a character we can somehow relate with in the anime we watch... and in the "cute girl/moe" kind of shows, there's a lack of that kind of character, at least for me; i.e., there's rarely a guy around, and if he is, he tends to be a weak supporting character. Now, this wouldn't be so bad... but unless I've been watching the wrong anime (which is highly possible, given what I stated I watch far too much of above), that type of show seems to be the majority these days.
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2011-11-26, 01:00 | Link #71 | |||
by John Digweed House Mix
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the "moe" i met him until saw K-On, because in the anime informaton i am very late if more about this genre tell me please! also animes. Quote:
I also see like the pictures. LOL Quote:
I hope understood your idea.
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Last edited by Transitions; 2011-11-26 at 01:21. |
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2011-11-26, 01:16 | Link #72 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philippines
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This thread (and the picture above) prompted me to read this:
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/118...Episode-26/0/? In just about a few minutes of Eva slice-of-life, a historical turning point was created. Quoting a post from there, which quoted critic Hiroki Azuma: Quote:
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Last edited by sa547; 2011-11-26 at 05:08. |
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2011-11-26, 02:48 | Link #73 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
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The problem with that logic was that, during early 2000s the whole world is transitioning into digital age with DVD media. As lot of those 3-10 episode stuff are OVA, meaning that aren't aired on TV first. Compare to now to then there are more TV timeslot dedicate to anime now more than ever. Sure, sometime the market got saturated so much (ie 2006,2009) that there might not be many as many new shows in next year and those timeslot instead got replaced with reruns. Gones are the days of Cyber Formula where they release 5,6 episodes on tape/VCD. Heck, you'll never see 110 episode OVA like Legend of Galactic Heroes or 13 epiisode OVA like Record of Lodoss War. Instead, OVA is now mostly refer to special episodes that were included on DVD of the say series or promotional episodes used to promote upcoming season. Yes, the total of show might be the same, but many show that weren't used to be on TV are now on TV first. Quote:
IMO, the answer is no. As I say those shows are still being made and you agreed, then what was the issue? the quality of the shows those action/sci-fi/suspense type? Using your examples from 1998 (even though a few series were actually not from that year) only was originated as anime original. So to say that the moe-centric show impact what was being made was wrong as most anime are still derived from manga, light novel, or games. Everything else on your list are still manga derived, 3 of them are senin derived in Outlaw Star, Master Keaton, Cowboy Bepop and Berserk, While HxH, Trigun, Kenshin are shounen. Among them, original Cowboy Bepop manga was actually a fairly short and mediocre seinen manga with only 2 volumes. As I mentioned there are clearly more Shonen manga derive anime than ever especially titles from JUMP with OP, Naruto, Toriko, Bleach, Gintama, new HxH, and any of these series are comparative with any of three shounen you mentioned popularity wise if not more so, especially in OP's case. So the question is really down to are there any senin-manga derived anime other than moe-centric show? (BTW, Outlaw Star has plenty of moe-type characters as well, and features ample fan-services and harem element, and even Cowboy Bepop have its moe character type in it.) Again, using Anime DB, and just search this year (2011) I found 3 shows that are devoid of any moe-character type: Hyouge Mono Shuukan Shimakou Gyakkyou Burai Kaiji: Hakairoku Hen All three are highly touted seinen especially Hyouge Mono and Shuukan Shimakou. That's not including seinen manga that were made into live drama like Bartender (which also had anime 5 years ago) or Misaki #1 and was unthinkable 10,15 years. Actually this reminds me that there are a lot more manga that where getting adapted into live drama since 2006 (beforem than it was far in between) which could explain the potential lower count of seinen anime. Title like Monster would be made into drama right now and not anime. Anyway, so now the issue is in 1998, what other seine-manga based show are there, and through anime DB, there are total of 15 seinen manga shows and at least 1/2 are fan-service/ecchi/comedy titles that you mentioned while the other are ambiguous titles that involves some form of moe-character type. Examples are: Yume de Aetara Princess Nine Momoiro Sisters Android Ana Maico 2010 Futari Gurashi And considering that 1998 is a famous action year, that is pretty represented samples. The only thing I would say is that nowadays, there are a lot more light novel based anime adaption and since LN tend to be more suspect of checklist mentality of character types it reflects on the anime adaption. BTW, I find it interesting that almost every LN-based anime are tagged with seinin in Anime DB perhaps because most LN-based manga are serialized in seinen magazines. But technically light novels are market toward teenagers like sounen mangas do. And that is IMO, the problem with western fans or at least the ones who are picky with genre. When they realize the trend is toward a genre they don't like, they blame everything on otaku, when otaku are in reality the ones that watches EVERYTHING and it is those close minded fans that was being picky. Not to mention they are also the ones that tend to not buy the related product the further the demise of their favorite genre. (or at least force their genre to adapt.)
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2011-11-26, 03:31 | Link #74 | |
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In stereotypical shounen (boys) works, even to this day, they generally revolve around a male protagonist, with the thought likely being as you say -- someone for the predominantly-male audience to relate to. But most of the late-night anime most talked-about here are aimed more at the seinen (young-adult men) audience, and these works tend to be much more varied in terms of male protagonists. Indeed, there are lots of seinen works that eschew the male protagonist entirely. Part of the reason for this is that the audience may not be really able to relate to a male protagonist who would be the same age as the heroines (shounen age), and thus significantly younger than them. But having an older protagonist with younger heroines (and I mean even high school age here) changes the dynamic of the story significantly, and that too may not appeal. So it's easier to just get rid of the male protagonist entirely, assuming that the audience doesn't always need/want a proxy to identify with and they can just enjoy the heroines doing their thing directly (without the "meddlesome guy" getting in the way). Both of the examples you used, K-On! and Strike Witches, are these sorts of seinen works. Of course there can also be seinen works that do feature prominent male protagonists, but they are typically older and have personalities or issues that take them beyond the "shounen action hero" sort of mold (i.e. protagonists the audience can identify with). I might tie this back with a point that was raised earlier about "lack of relate-able characters" among the female characters (for the female audience), and I think it makes some sense too. In works where they excise the "stand-in" protagonist, that doesn't mean that the female heroines will necessarily be "relate-able" to the adult male audience, they're just designed to appeal to them. But, as such, these characters may not be automatically "relate-able" to a female audience either. Of course, I think some of the themes of these works can transcend gender, time, and place (which is why a lot of them revolve either directly or indirectly around themes of "nostalgia")... but the premise here doesn't seem to depend at all on "creating characters the audience can relate to", but rather just "creating characters the audience will enjoy". As far as harem/fanservice shows go, I think they have always relied on the clueless/clumsy male lead to some degree, even "back in the day"... but perhaps taking a little bit of influence from some of the seinen works, you do see some of the modern shounen romance/harem shows place an even lesser emphasis on the male protagonist. For example, it's interesting to compare To Love-Ru and the newest incarnation To Love-Ru Darkness manga -- in the latter, Rito often seems to take a backseat while the heroines dominate the narration and forefront. He's only there "as necessary" because the audience really want to see the girls. You also have cases like Koihime Musou where the original game did have a male ("stand-in") protagonist, but he was excised completely from the anime (which ran for three seasons). So all that to say, based on your preferences, you probably want to consider mostly shounen shows, and be rather careful when choosing seinen shows if having a relate-able male protagonist is a key requirement for you. I think there are actually are a lot of modern anime that still fit the bill... but if you pick the shows you watch based on popularity, you may find that it's not what you prefer. (As a perhaps-relevant aside... the anime I most remember following and recognizing as anime growing up were actually shoujo works, like Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura. I also liked Escaflowne, which was almost half-shounen/half-shoujo, and one of my transitions into being a "modern" anime fan was Fruits Bakset -- also shoujo. So as a guy watching these shows even when I was younger, the appeal wasn't being able to identify with a male protagonist, but more to be interested in the heroine(s). So transitioning into this particular style of seinen show barely required any adjustment for me -- it was a natural transition from shoujo to seinen where the emphasis remained on enjoying the heroines. That may be why these sorts of shows appeal to me, and I wonder if perhaps people like me were part of the original consideration (guys who grew up watching shoujo anime, and not just shounen stuff).)
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2011-11-26, 04:36 | Link #75 | ||
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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Anime isn't "censored" here in the US, in general. And most fans in the US have access to fansubs even if they do buy the licensed releases (which are also usually not censored). K-On! in particular isn't "censored" at all, either in fansubs or in the licensed releases as the series is about as 'safe' as it can be anyway. And I'd like to say "BINGO! GOT IT!" to Undertaker's post: Quote:
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2011-11-26, 05:18 | Link #76 | |
Pretentious moe scholar
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Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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Actually, let's expand that in general. Are there certain genres more vulnerable to outside competition, like live action TV, video games, etc.?
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2011-11-26, 05:20 | Link #77 | |
Banned
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/FACEPALM Not this shit again Fall Season 2011 C³ -C Cube- : Haruaki Yachi (Decent fighter) Shakugan no Shana : Sakai Yuji (Ace-in-the-hole) Ben-To : You Satou (Strong fighter) Persona 4: Narukami Yuu (MVP) Summer Season 2011 Nurarihyon no Mago Sennen Makyou : Nura Rikou (Strong fighter to MVP) Baka to Test to Shoukanjuu Ni! : Yoshii Akihisa (reliable Idiot) Kami-sama no Memo-chou : Fujishima Narumi (reliable Idiot) Itsuka Tenma no Kuro Usagi : Kurogane Taito (Decent fighter, or was it Ace-in-the-hole?) Spring Season 2011 Hidan no Aria: Tohyama Kinji (Decent fighter to MVP) DOG DAYS: Izumi Shinku (MVP) Ao no Exorcist: Okumura Rin (MVP) Winter Season 2011 Kore wa Zombie Desu ka?: Aikawa Ayumu (Decent Fighter) IS - Infinite Stratos: Orimura Ichika (Ace-in-the-hole) Fall Season 2010 STAR DRIVER Kagayaki no Takuto: Tsunashi Takuto (MVP) To Aru Majutsu no Index II: Kamijou Touma (Ace-in-the-hole) Summer Season 2010 Nurarihyon no Mago: Nura Rikuo (MVP) Ookami-san to Shichinin no Nakama-tachi: Morino Ryoushi (Strong fighter) The Legend of the Legendary Heroes: Ryner Lute (Strong fighter to Ace-in-the-hole) Spring Season 2010 Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou: Sai Akuto (MVP) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These are the ones that fall under strictly fighting shows, I haven't included the ones from normal romcom series, and I haven't included the ones I didn't watched or didn't like... This was for only these two years. So to put it simply- For every Sora no Otoshimono and SEKIREI you show me, I've got 6 to 8 other shows with strong fighting male leads to counter that. Last edited by Brimstone; 2011-11-26 at 05:32. |
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2011-11-26, 05:31 | Link #78 |
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Interestingly (or as expected?), a lot (but not all of course) of the shows in that list are based on shounen light novels. That said, I'm not sure the original point was that there aren't shows with strong male protagonists these days, but more like there seem (to him at least) to be an increasing amount of shows that don't have them. Whether it's true or not, I do think that if you have tastes that don't match the current trends the most important thing becomes knowing what to be on the lookout for (since you can't bank on popularity alone to help you find it).
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2011-11-26, 05:38 | Link #79 | |
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It's not only him, every time there's a new romcom series, or rather any series with a young male protagonist, somehow everyone acts like there wasn't any likable guy from the previous season or the one before that -_- If anything, the changes from the past is that there are more action heroes in Romcom series now than their were before in the old days. In those 'normal' Romcom series almost all of the lead protagonist have an agreeable personality to a fair share of the viewers watching it and even though there's no fighting, they would still have 2-3 GAR moments on screen. (Btw, I'm not exactly sure why you've pointed out a number of them were from Light Novels adaptation Is that a good or bad thing?) |
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2011-11-26, 05:48 | Link #80 |
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Well, it's more an observation. That they're mostly shounen works as opposed to seinen tied back to the post I made before. But as far as the overall "has anime changed" point, certainly light novels are a large source of content now that didn't exist to nearly the same scale in the past. So yeah, just an observation; it's neither good nor bad.
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