Macross Delta - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

You mean the guy not even bothering to check if the blast got the Sigur Valens just gathering the data and getting the hell out.

Valan's timed it as Sigur Valens was over the ruins. Just that Gramia sensed it having the barrier cover the bottom of the ship. If it worked the threat would've been gone. The data he gathered is important for counter measures being planned as mentioned with the Fold Jamming Cannon.

If you really can't connect the dots that's not really my fault...

Still not confirmation of your theory. Come back to me when you have something solid. Because we don't know squat what plan that was 7 years ago.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I'm not sure where you are seeing Reddy saying that the NUNS dude is one of the good guys?

Then again I have not seen the episode yet, with or without subs. I don't know how good anybody but Tak and karice here talks Japanese, so I guess I have to refrain from giving my own take on what I think of whatever the NUNS people said this episode until I have seen the ep with subs.

Valans is a smug asshole for sure but Kuromitsu is jumping the gun that NUNS blew up Carlisle just because he is talking to higher ups. He knows more about ruins as he has intel.

As per Macross Frontier there are 17 known Protoculture ruin planets not including the Vajra homeworld. So his intel could come from anywhere.

Originally Posted by Saint X

Also the "NUNS Cabal" that we see is probably the same people that most of the NUN-based villains of prior macross games are. Remember that with a loose enough decentralization, you can effectively turn a federation into a series of kingdoms. These people have real, specific interests that mirror those of past NUN unification masterminds.

Lactence was pretty much purged from central NUNS. In Macross the Ride one planet is in civil war between Lactence loyal UN Spacy and NUNS. Fasces being a mostly Zentradi organization is heavily pro-Earth attacked Frontier aiming to take the Macross Galaxy resort ship.

In Macross Frontier LN VF-X special forces were monitoring Macross Galaxy activity attached to Frontier fleet due to its loose connection to Lactence. Manfred Brando president of the PMC Critical Path Corporation supplied Lactence and Zentradi rebels with Fold Quartz based jamming equipment. Manfred Brando saved Grace from death and was also one of the 117th Research Fleet sponsors. When Aegis Focker killed him he didn't die like Grace becoming an AI.

Havamal on the other hand isn't Lactence but a special forces group in NUNS that pretty much rebelled under Col. Todo. Todo never forgave the Zentradi for nuking the Earth thus try to change the timeline.

Call Lactence a bunch of fascist Earth supremacists but they aren't racists as they have Terrans, Zentradi and Zolans in their ranks.

[Thousand Mistress]

Originally Posted by Annorax

So what did Hayate's dad? Military with a medic mom??? Both died during WIndamere independance war?
Speaking of which, accroding to the internet, the place Hayate's dad was in sounds like Ouroboros(Blue sea hot desret cold snowly place?)

I heard that his dad was in military too. His mom, I couldn't make out from what he said but he did say she was a nurse or something. Can anyone confirm this? xD

Oh and that too. The place does sound familiar. But the last part being "snowy place" could also mean that's Windermere. (that's the only snowy place in the Delta galaxy imo) Unless Hayate's dad actually visited a lot of places and not just one.

[s07195]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I have trouble seeing that after he tried to murder Walkure about three or four times by now.

In regards to Hayate's personality, I came to an epiphany on the way back home from my night shift: This show is to Macross Frontier as Macross 7 was to SDFM. Hence Hayate is more akin to Basara than to Alto. Ergo sum, he is interested in pursueing his personal dream (flying, the wind), is almost asexual in his disinterest in the other sex and his inner thoughts are being kept a deliberate enigma.

Wait, isn't Macross 7 supposedly uh... SEED Destiny tier love it or hate it?

Are we personally witnessing another series that will be eventually divide the fandom?

[kuromitsu]

222

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Valan's timed it as Sigur Valens was over the ruins. Just that Gramia sensed it having the barrier cover the bottom of the ship. If it worked the threat would've been gone. The data he gathered is important for counter measures being planned as mentioned with the Fold Jamming Cannon.

What episode were you watching? In the episode I saw, the scene went as such:
Ruins: go boom, "hidden treasure" is revealed
Malan: whoa, look at that. So that's what the scientists were talking about. OK, got the data? Then let's scram.

Things that the episode I saw didn't contain: Malan checking if the Sigur Valens was harmed at all, Malan reacting to the Sigur Valens being OK, Malan reacting to the Sigur Valens not only being OK but Windermere clearly getting the upper hand.

Also, it's very obvious that he knew what to expect from the explosion, and it wasn't the Sigur Valens going down in flames: it was the hidden artifact revealing itself (cf. "so this is what the scientists were talking about"). Also, he clearly knew that the Ragna ruins were special, which is why he chose to blow those up. (Windermere knew as well, as Roid mentions it to Gramia after the artifact is revealed.) For that matter, I don't remember fold jamming being mentioned in episode 13, but in episode 14 when one of the boss guys asks about fold jamming he only says that as they never used it with a wind singer before they don't know anything for sure about its effectiveness. He never says "well, according to the data we gathered" or anything.

In this episode we learn that 7 years ago these same guys who were involved in blowing up the ruins at Ragna, had a plan that didn't work out. You know what also happened 7 years ago? The Windermere war of independence and the mysterious incident which left the crater in the planet's surface and spurred Windermere to seek revenge. Now, call me a conspiracy theorist but I have a sneaking suspicion that there might be a connection between these two things.

[deadite]

It's a wonder how some fans of this show can't fathom that UN Spacy/NUNs are constantly pirtrayed in a negative light and can't take a hint when a character is designed to be a complete bastard. Kawamori himself dislikes state military so I cant see how people still defend this organization who forced the world into a one world government as its inception.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by deadite

It's a wonder how some fans of this show can't fathom that UN Spacy/NUNs are constantly pirtrayed in a negative light and can't take a hint when a character is designed to be a complete bastard. Kawamori himself dislikes state military so I cant see how people still defend this organization who forced the world into a one world government as its inception.

Just because the narrative has an ideological bias against centralized government and organizations doesn't mean that the concept is unsound or without justification, but regardless of said bias whether something is considered negative or positive is predicated by the audience's own views.

[magnuskn]

You know, with all the premature celebrating some people here are doing, you'd think a karmic backlash is kinda inevitable.

[larethian]

First thing I noticed was the OP was started by Freyja rather than Mikumo. Other parts appeared to be the same after that.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

You know, with all the premature celebrating some people here are doing, you'd think a karmic backlash is kinda inevitable.

For who? Pro or anti?? (Windermere/NUNS)??

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

For who? Pro or anti?? (Windermere/NUNS)??

I'd go out on a limb and say... both?

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

You know, with all the premature celebrating some people here are doing, you'd think a karmic backlash is kinda inevitable.

Oh for for the love of god. At this point I just hope that you're actually trolling.

I actually had a rant written here, but I'm trying to be a grown-up and keeping it to myself. But let me just say, you do seem to be doing your best to make discussing this show very unpleasant.

(Also, I keep wondering if I'm "pro" or "anti" because I certainly don't feel either. Holy cow, guys. Also, rest assured that I don't give a flying squirrel about being proven wrong by the show if it comes to that. The story will go wherever it will go, I'm not the writer, and I'm not all that invested in being ~Right~ and winning some kind of silly internet argument.)

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

222
What episode were you watching? In the episode I saw, the scene went as such:
Ruins: go boom, "hidden treasure" is revealed
Malan: whoa, look at that. So that's what the scientists were talking about. OK, got the data? Then let's scram.

Things that the episode I saw didn't contain: Malan checking if the Sigur Valens was harmed at all, Malan reacting to the Sigur Valens being OK, Malan reacting to the Sigur Valens not only being OK but Windermere clearly getting the upper hand.

And you are forgetting Valans gave the NUNS central proposition that to blow up the ruins before the Sigur Valens comes calling.

NUNS guessed what would possibly happen as there are have been cases where Protoculture hid things in Fold space like with the Fold Evil on Ouroboros.

NUNS first priority is to deny Gramia the means to complete his mind control but Lady M convinced them to wait till Elysion finished its raid.

This resulted to Ragna splitting its defenses allowing Windermere to fold in orbit and take the ruins.

Lady M's actions in fact delayed evacuation efforts as people dilly-dallied till a war is over their heads.

If Valans blew up the ruins as Sigur Valens was in orbit knowing what might happen he'd just give it to Gramia. By timing it when Sigur Valens was close enough he tried to have it killed.

The Reaction Weapon didn't cause the damage Lady M and Kaos feared showing central NUNS knew what it was doing.

Last minute Sigur Valens put barrier up but a portion of its fleet was destroyed. The ruins came out of Fold Space as predicted. Valan makes a tactical retreat as they have the data needed and they just spent their means of killing Gramia. It is not like he has a Macross at his beck and call at the time as the guy who had 100 to 100 loss in underdog battles got hoodwinked by his student.

In fact Macross Elysion had Sigur Valens at the ropes with Heinz knocked out by Freyja. They could've won the war then there but their first priority is to keep civilians getting Var'd resulting to casualties.

In this episode we learn that 7 years ago these same guys who were involved in blowing up the ruins at Ragna, had a plan that didn't work out. You know what also happened 7 years ago? The Windermere war of independence and the mysterious incident which left the crater in the planet's surface and spurred Windermere to seek revenge. Now, call me a conspiracy theorist but I have a sneaking suspicion that there might be a connection between these two things.

The episode never said that. We do not know the plan they were referring to.
What you are doing is grasping straws saying "Ah-hah! I was right NUNS blew up Carlisle where NUNS had a base along with millions of Windermerean and Terran civilians as the smug asshole is speaking to NUNS higher ups only not saying they were the reason of MDE explosion.".

You when you said of adding stuff to the narrative not said in the episode it isn't me it is you who is doing that.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by deadite

It's a wonder how some fans of this show can't fathom that UN Spacy/NUNs are constantly pirtrayed in a negative light and can't take a hint when a character is designed to be a complete bastard. Kawamori himself dislikes state military so I cant see how people still defend this organization who forced the world into a one world government as its inception.

NUN aren't the ones using military-grade mind control via poisoning the local civilian food supply. Or the ones who declared a war of conquest with no justification except greed.

[s07195]

Uh... wrong thread?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by s07195

Uh... wrong thread?

When there is talks about a faction being the actual antagonist, it is important to note existing antagonism.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

NUN aren't the ones using military-grade mind control via poisoning the local civilian food supply. Or the ones who declared a war of conquest with no justification except greed.

Um I'm sorry what show are you watching... You claim their motivation (or justification as you state) is greed.... You're kidding right? They are quite clearly motivated by anger because something happened on Windermere.
Be it by the NUNS or by the Windermerians themselves, but whatever it was it clearly pissed them off....take a look at Bogue and Keith's rage over the hole in their planet that there is obviously their main motivation, maybe greed does play a part maybe it doesn't... But it certainly isn't their only reasoning.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

NUN aren't the ones using military-grade mind control via poisoning the local civilian food supply. Or the ones who declared a war of conquest with no justification except greed.

NUN detonated a bomb which went against foes AND friends. I guess it's not hard to say that NUN aren't Angels as well if they take collateral damage on einvironment, civilians or even the own allies/comrades.

And against the effect of VAR sound forces like Walküre are able to counter the VAR and therefore the mind control caused by Heinz singing.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

NUN detonated a bomb which went against foes AND friends. I guess it's not hard to say that NUN aren't Angels as well if they take collateral damage on einvironment, civilians or even the own allies/comrades.

And against the effect of VAR sound forces like Walküre are able to counter the VAR and therefore the mind control caused by Heinz singing.

Not to mention what happened 7 years hasn't been explicitly stated so I have no idea where he got that their only justification is greed...
Besides neither side are saints... One willing to kill their own soldiers plus maybe cause damage to a planet.
Another side is using mass mind control (and repeatedly trying to kill Walkure)
Go fit win Chaos (in particular Delta Squadron and Walkure)

[Thess]

I asked this in the music thread, but maybe here will be better? About the new ending.

Did anyone notice that those circles around the Siegfried are really Hayate's and Freyja's resonance fold (blue and orange)? They were out of sync in the beginning and after the Valkyrie arrives to its destination (Walkure, specifically Freyja - it flies straight into her direction) it becomes harmonized again. I think it paints that they have to always work together during battles.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by deadite

Kawamori himself dislikes state military so I cant see how people still defend this organization who forced the world into a one world government as its inception.

I think you are forgetting that the point of the organization was to help prevent the destruction of the human race. Without the NUN there wouldn't be a Macross Univers.