999: 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors. New DS Visual Novel From The Writer Of Ever 17

[kona~chan]

for me only submarine ending left
can someone just spoill me what happened in submarine ending?
is it simmiliar to knife and axe ending or not?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by kona~chan

for me only submarine ending left
can someone just spoill me what happened in submarine ending?
is it simmiliar to knife and axe ending or not?

Submarine ending is a lot better if you get it BEFORE the Safe ending. It just features everyone dying horribly.

[VDZ]

Originally Posted by Blue-kun

One is, as usual in Uchikoshi's stories, that there's a glaring paradox.

Which of Uchikoshi's other stories have glaring paradoxes?

Reposting my opinion on 999 from the Remember11 thread:

Originally Posted by VDZ

999 has been released in English now, and we can see what Uchikoshi is like when he's working alone. People seem to like it, with the average vndb rating being 8.80. Unfortunately, I was disappointed. I still rated the game an 8/10 because it definitely amused me, but I can't say it's a masterpiece.

Someone in this thread was complaining about a lack of consistency in R11, but I never felt such problems in R11. In 999 though...there's just too much that doesn't make sense. I won't list all of my problems with the story here, just check this thread for some of them.

But worse than the fact that there's some minor plotholes...is the total lack of originality in 999. You can describe over half of 999 by just describing it as 'Ever17 meets Killer Queen. Now, I haven't played much of Killer Queen (so there'll only be early game spoilers), so there might be more stolen elements, but I'll list what I've found here:
Killer Queen

Spoiler:

-Protagonists are kidnapped at a random time and wake up in a random room, not remembering exactly how they got kidnapped.
-All they have to determine what's going on is a small device that determines their role in the game (PDA in KQ, bracelet in 999).
-They have been kidnapped to play a game of life and death against eachother. 999 actually puts a nice twist on this by making the gameplay cooperative instead of competitive.
-They have a device on/in their bodies that will quickly kill them if they violate the rules of the game.
-Shortly after the game starts, the protagonist runs into his osananajimi, who he hasn't seen in a while. For some reason, they were both kidnapped to participate in that game.
-At the start of the game, the players get together to share their information about the rules of the game to get an idea of what they're supposed to do. Notably, in KQ everybody gets unique information, in 999 only Snake gets unique information.
-Right at the start of the game, someone's obligatory self-detonation device goes off to show everybody that it's serious business.

Naturally, the Ever17 section contains major spoilers.
Ever17

Spoiler:

-The protagonist is not the protagonist after all, it was somebody watching him the entire time.
-This hidden protagonist was the mastermind behind everything that happened.
-The mastermind's plan was to create a situation very similar to the situation X years ago.
-The person who recreated this situation and her accomplice are people who were in the situation X years ago.
-One person is present in both situations without knowing anything about the plan, and tries to figure out why the same thing is happening that was happening X years ago (E17: Tsugumi, 999: Ace).
-People send something back in time (E17: Blick Winkel, 999: Sudoku solution) to save one (or in Ever17, two) of the main characters.
-This causes a time loop with a causality paradox, as sending that something back in time causes them to send that something back in time.
-The good guys never were in any danger (2034 only in Ever17), as it was all a trick to cause a pseudo-scientific phenomenon (E17: Blick Winkel being trapped, 999: Junpei sending the Epic Sudoku solution to Akane through the morphogenetic field).
-The characters are trapped in a construction that will be flooded within X hours and must escape before then.
-You know that guy and that girl of around the same age? Plot twist, they're brother and sister! (Although the actual way it's used is completely different, so I guess I can let it slip.)
-The accomplice that helped set up the plan is actually participating in the fake situation to ensure everything goes well. Naturally, when the time comes, that person explains the vital plot things only he can tell. (Although at least in Ever17 it came out of the blue that 2034 Takeshi was the accomplice.)
-And of course, those damn evil pharmaceutical companies! They're evil, evil I tell you! (Although Ever17's Leiblich had a reason to be evil, they could've made tons of cash by researching those weapons, and they definitely got their hands onto something good with the Cure virus. Cradle's excuse? The CEO wanted to be able to recognize faces. Yeah.)

Taking this into account, if I had to judge which of the two is the better writer...Remember11 may not have been what you all wanted it to be, but at least it didn't consist for 50% of "I've seen this before" situations.

The only thing that actually pleasantly surprised me in 999's ending was

Spoiler:

the fact that the reason for the third person narration was because it was all told from Akane's perspective. Anything on the top screen was how Junpei experienced it, anything on the bottom screen was how Akane experienced it. That was neat.

I don't mind getting an ending that isn't what I expected it to be. In fact, I'd much rather have that than an ending that is EXACTLY what I expected it to be.

Uchikoshi was playing it safe in 999. I suppose there were enough people who liked it...but no, I think that a writer should always try new things, even if it means running the risk of severely disappointing/angering the fanbase.

As for...

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Finally finished this game. After reading other people's impressions, I only have one question:

Spoiler:

How does June disappear in the True and Safe endings? Was she never actually there to begin with and disappeared due to PIME TARADOX, or is there something else that I'm missing?

I mean, she seems to be in the other car with Santa in the ending (Lotus refers to her as 'Six'), so...

To my understanding,

Spoiler:

Akane hosts the second Nonary Game in every timeline present in 999.
For Akane to host the second Nonary Game, she must have survived the incinerator 9 years ago.
Akane survived the incinerator 9 years ago by receiving the sudoku solution from Junpei in the present. In other words, the premise for Akane's existence in the present is 'Junpei will solve the Epic Sudoku and send Akane the solution'.
From the above, we can conclude that, every timeline in 999 has a past with Akane receiving information from Junpei who solves the sudoku.

Basically, every time it becomes unlikely for Junpei to send the solution to Akane (because he never gets to solve the Epic Sudoku), the premise for Akane's existence weakens, and her body reacts to that (her fever). If the premise disappears completely (in other words, there is no longer any possible future where Junpei solves the sudoku), she disappears completely, as she cannot exist because the conditions for her existence are not met. In other words, in every bad end, Akane fades from existence. In True End, she also fades from existence shortly (perhaps because Akane's presence would cause Junpei to worry about her instead of solving the sudoku?), but she later reappears as the condition for her existence is met, causing her existence to finally become stable.

[Blue-kun]

Which of Uchikoshi's other stories have glaring paradoxes?

Spoiler:

ever17.

If you want to provide an explanation which does not contain this paradox, feel free to do so. I'd be more than happy to revise my own opinion about the game.

Also.

Spoiler:

Akane hosts the second Nonary Game in every timeline present in 999.
For Akane to host the second Nonary Game, she must have survived the incinerator 9 years ago.
Akane survived the incinerator 9 years ago by receiving the sudoku solution from Junpei in the present. In other words, the premise for Akane's existence in the present is 'Junpei will solve the Epic Sudoku and send Akane the solution'.
From the above, we can conclude that, every timeline in 999 has a past with Akane receiving information from Junpei who solves the sudoku.

Basically, every time it becomes unlikely for Junpei to send the solution to Akane (because he never gets to solve the Epic Sudoku), the premise for Akane's existence weakens, and her body reacts to that (her fever). If the premise disappears completely (in other words, there is no longer any possible future where Junpei solves the sudoku), she disappears completely, as she cannot exist because the conditions for her existence are not met. In other words, in every bad end, Akane fades from existence. In True End, she also fades from existence shortly (perhaps because Akane's presence would cause Junpei to worry about her instead of solving the sudoku?), but she later reappears as the condition for her existence is met, causing her existence to finally become stable.

Spoiler:

What I'm more curious about is how one explains Santa, Seven and Snake. Were they lying all along? Because you definitely get told she 'died' and they all seem to think the same, even in the true ending. Oh, and of course, what was Alice's role in everything, which is the one other thing I find myself unable to figure out.

[VDZ]

Originally Posted by Blue-kun

Spoiler:

ever17.

If you want to provide an explanation which does not contain this paradox, feel free to do so. I'd be more than happy to revise my own opinion about the game.

That's an interesting question to ask. It's a more complicated version of what I've already explained about 999 on another board.

Spoiler:

Okay, let's see if I can make this clear in one try.

In the Ever17 timeline, 2034 LeMU is built after 2017. Let's call the building of 2034 LeMU 'Event A'.
Event A is caused by another event, namely that You'Haru establishes contact with Blick Winkel. Let's call this 'Event B'.
Blick Winkel takes notice of a specific timeline. Let's call Blick Winkel taking notice of this timeline 'Event C'.

The basic structure of the causality of these events is as following:
-Event B causes Event A.
-Event A causes Event C.
-Event C causes Event B.
In other words, the causality goes in a loop, B->A->C->B->A->C->B->A->C->etc.

To make this possible, there are two solutions:
1) There exists only one timeline, and all events on that timeline are predetermined. Causality is not a problem here, as the future event will take place with certainty and is therefore a completely valid cause. A future cause can have a past effect. However, Ever17 does not use this idea.
2) There are entities with free will, or there is randomness (or both), so depending on the actions of those entities or the randomness, the timeline splits into different branches whenever an action is taken or a random thing happens. In this case, neither A, nor B, nor C has happened, and therefore cannot cause the other events. The solution is simple: Find a new Event D, that is possible without Events A, B or C, and that causes one of those events.

Let's say I have a computer program with boolean (true or false) values A, B and C. Every 50ms, the program checks if one if them is true, and if B is true, it makes B false and A true, when A is true, A goes off and C goes on, and if C is true, C goes off and B goes on. Naturally, when I start the program, nothing happens, because each of those variables are false.
Now, I adjust the program, adding a new boolean D. When D is true, D becomes false and C becomes true. I add a button to the program that the user can click, and once it's clicked, D becomes true. Now, when you start the program, you can actually start this loop by clicking the button and causing D to be true. It only has to be pressed once, and from that point on, all of the initially false variables keep turning each other on, even when D isn't true.

Applying this logic to Ever17, it basically means that if in even a single timeline,
A) 2034 LeMU is built and the situation is reconstructed; or
B) You'Haru establishes contact with Blick Winkel; or
C) Blick Winkel takes notice of the situation and decides to change it,
the loop becomes possible and endlessly repeats itself.

Assuming Blick Winkel's lifespan is not finite, there are as many timelines as there are possibilities, and humans have free will, it is extremely likely that in one of those timelines there is an Event D that causes either event A, B or C.

Event D could be anything. You'Haru could become so obsessed with Blick Winkel she tries Event A because it's the only chance of ever reaching him, or Blick Winkel might coincidentally stumble upon You'Haru who tries to reach him (B), or Blick Winkel decides it'd be interesting to try and save Takeshi and Coco (C), there only has to be a possibility, no matter how infinitely small, that one of the events happens. Once one of the events happens, the entire loop can take place in any timeline, as Blick Winkel is not bound to a single timeline.

Basically, the problem is that an effect in the past cannot have a cause in the future if there is no certainty that this effect will take place. However, both Ever17's Blick Winkel and 999's Zero are not affected by this;
-Blick Winkel can travel to any point on any different timeline, so a cause on any point on any timeline can be a cause for an effect Blick Winkel performs on any other point on any other timeline.
-Zero can take any information from any possible future (any point on any timeline that could branch off from the current point on the current timeline) and bring it to the current point on the current timeline. Therefore any cause in any possible future allows Zero to perform an effect on the current point on the current timeline.

Also interesting to note: Zero's cause/effect reversal trick differs from Blick Winkel's in that Zero's effect is instantly undone in any timeline that does not contain the possible future that was used for the effect. For this reason, Zero disappears whenever Zero's cause is no longer possible, as Zero's existence is the effect of that cause.

Spoiler:

What I'm more curious about is how one explains Santa, Seven and Snake. Were they lying all along? Because you definitely get told she 'died' and they all seem to think the same, even in the true ending. Oh, and of course, what was Alice's role in everything, which is the one other thing I find myself unable to figure out.

Spoiler:

For the sake of avoiding HUGE GAPING PLOT HOLES, we'll just say Seven was in on the entire thing and never slipped up even once. His amnesia was fake. Santa was the accomplice, so obviously he's in on the entire thing and has been lying all along as well.

However, there doesn't seem to be any avoiding plot holes when you get to Snake and, more importantly, Clover. Both of them know that Akane died, and although it would be possible for Snake to be in on the entire thing (although unlikely; he's got to be a damn good actor, and just how big do you want this conspiracy to be, Uchikoshi?), it would simply be impossible for Clover to be in on the entire thing and never slip up. Hell, she even kills multiple people in one bad end because she thinks Santa and Seven killed Snake. That really is some misinformation going on there if Clover actually knew about the whole thing. Or is she just acting so well that she even kills people to be more convincing?

Either way, there doesn't seem to be any way to patch this plot hole that isn't completely retarded. Uchikoshi just fucked up on this one.

And Allice? "Oh shit, I forgot to think up a solution to this part of the mystery...oh wait, I TOTALLY DIDN'T MESS UP HERE IT'S ALL JUST A RED HERRING DESPITE ALL THE PLOT DEVELOPMENT IT GOT MOVE ALONG PEOPLE THERE'S NOTHING TO SEE HERE" is my guess. Either that, or it's the most retarded red herring I've ever seen.

[Kleeyook]

I still can't find this game in my local store. Of course it hasn't been released in EU yet. ANd there's no release date for EU either.

[VDZ]

Aksys does not have the rights to release 999 in the EU, and I haven't heard anything about any plans from them to obtain those rights. Aksys hasn't released anything in the EU (aside from Wiiware and other downloadable games, seems to be a rights loophole) because they never acquire the rights to EU releases. The only hope for a EU release is for a different publisher to become interested in publishing it in the EU.

The DS isn't region-locked, though, so you can import the game.

[ramengud]

Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
999 has been released in English now, and we can see what Uchikoshi is like when he's working alone. People seem to like it, with the average vndb rating being 8.80. Unfortunately, I was disappointed. I still rated the game an 8/10 because it definitely amused me, but I can't say it's a masterpiece.

Someone in this thread was complaining about a lack of consistency in R11, but I never felt such problems in R11. In 999 though...there's just too much that doesn't make sense. I won't list all of my problems with the story here, just check this thread for some of them.

Well, at least 999 is much better than Uchikoshi's other game 12 riven. In 12 riven, Even before reaching the true end you can almost predict everything correctly and almost there was no more element of surprise. I also did not like most of the tricks employed in 12 riven.

At least I enjoyed 999 as much as I enjoyed R11. The only problem I have with 999 is that it is very much just a copy of Ever 17, though I find Ever 17 to be the best of the infinity series.

As for R11, it was a good ride, though I have to read other sources since I coundn't figure out may things. It was definitely good and it could have been made better with one more ending.

As for I/O, I have read in some Chinese forums, that it is as good as R11 or better based on their reviews. Though I couldn't find a Chinese translation of it myself, so I haven't played it myself.

[Blue-kun]

@VDZ

Spoiler:

And Allice? "Oh shit, I forgot to think up a solution to this part of the mystery...oh wait, I TOTALLY DIDN'T MESS UP HERE IT'S ALL JUST A RED HERRING DESPITE ALL THE PLOT DEVELOPMENT IT GOT MOVE ALONG PEOPLE THERE'S NOTHING TO SEE HERE" is my guess. Either that, or it's the most retarded red herring I've ever seen.

Spoiler:

It's funny, because I remember reading an interview (or maybe someone telling me that) with him where he claimed she was there for a reason, even having defrosted before the first Nonary Game took place, so she's been out there in the world for a good while now. I'll see if I can find a source, but it's just something odd.

[Sides]

Some of you might still remember aksys' ask question to chunsoft and staff campaign, now the answers are up on aksys homepage for 999.
Not sure if a direct link works, because of cookie and age verification, but here is the link anyway. If it doesn't work, just click on "answers", on the far right, after you verified your age.

[Von Himmel]

Haven't read all of it, but there's some kind of new information in there....Like for example, Ace's past with Gordain's game ;(

It's nice to see that he got some development I mean, his development seems lacking for me compared to the others

[MidoriHiME]

I wish I'd played this game before Ever17, because then it would have been awesome and exciting. I didn't, so it failed to be an epic mind****. Anyway, here are my thoughts on the game and some questions:

Spoiler for 999 & Ever17:

Why did Aoi and Akane make the incinerator live? The urgency and sense of danger would be there without putting Junpei's life on the line...Akane really is a giant bitch

What's up with Junpei getting put to sleep via gas in the safe end? I mean it's not like they can start the nonary game from scratch in that timeline since Ace is dead.

How exactly do the multiple timelines work? Do they all occur? If not, there's no way the info from them could go into the morphogenetic field. But at the same time, HOW can they all exist? It's not like it's an infinity loop, so how could more than one of them be a future that takes place?

OK, now THIS is my biggest problem with the game: Akane being a murderous, calculated bitch seemed...entirely ooc. Sure, she faked innocence when it came to dirty jokes, but otherwise there was NO indication that she was capable of being Zero. If you want to have a manipulative bitch heroine, fine, but you can't just spring it out of nowhere. Even if it was just one or two instances, the creators should have hinted that she was capable of being manipulative and really going for what she wants. As it was I had a really hard time swallowing that she was Zero because...it just didn't fit the character they had built for her at all. Maybe I just missed it, but I never saw her do ANYTHING manipulative besides pretend to be innocent when it came to dirty jokes, and that's hardly on par with being capable of murder (or tricking someone else into murdering).

Another peeve: why bother with Ice-9 and Alice at all? It better be important in the sequel or I'll be mad I spent so much timereading about that when it had pretty much NOTHING to do with the plot at all.

Also, Cradle Pharmaceutical? Really? This is seriously an Infinity series game in everything but name. I was SURE the random headaches the characters kept having were going to be the symptoms of 999 Blau. I was also pretty sure the girl who died (who I never guessed was Akane lol) was going to be in cryogenic susp-oh sorry I mean frozen with Ice-9 in the coffin by the two 9 doors. I'm glad those predictions didn't come true or it would have been even MORE similar to Ever17.

It was a good game, but it could have been better. I'm still looking forward to the sequel, though. Now I need another visual novel to play...maybe it's time to actually play F/SN?

[Undertaker]

How's this game connect to Ever 17? I keep hearing it and that made me interested but is there anything special connecting these two games?

[MidoriHiME]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

How's this game connect to Ever 17? I keep hearing it and that made me interested but is there anything special connecting these two games?

The director of this game (Kotaro Uchikoshi) is one of the main writers of Ever17. The games themselves have no connection, but there are definitely similarities. They're so similar I'd say 999 is practically an Infinity series title with puzzles.

[Undertaker]

Ah...

I know the directer were the same, but for some reason Ever 17 keep popping up as comparison when there are other Infinity tile around.

So it's basically nothing except the two title have eerily similar feel to them then. In that case I might pass this one. Ever 17 and other Infinity titles were pretty good, but to me they are games that you have to be in a certain mood to play them and right now I'm not in that mood.

[MidoriHiME]

I think Ever17 comes up when comparing infinity titles because it's the Infinity title most people have played. As for it and 999...it's not really an eerily similar feel, but certain things that happen are very reminiscent of Ever17. In fact, and I've seen this mentioned before, but the pacing and feel is probably closer to Remember 11, if you've played that. It's a brutal murder-mystery of sorts, not a let's eat chicken sandwiches for hours and then have something interesting happen sort of game. Itdoes have the same sort of pseudo-science and psychological mess-with-your head type of conversations as the Infinity series, though. So I guess you do have to be in the mood for that sort of thing. I'd still recommend it, though, as it does have a pretty interesting story and the puzzles can be kinda fun (except when you're doing them for the 4th or 5th time).

[VDZ]

Originally Posted by MidoriHiME

I wish I'd played this game before Ever17, because then it would have been awesome and exciting. I didn't, so it failed to be an epic mind****.

But if you had played 999 before, it would've ruined the experience of Ever17. I think it's preferable having the 999 experience ruined to having the Ever17 experience ruined.

Originally Posted by MidoriHiME

Now I need another visual novel to play...maybe it's time to actually play F/SN?

Steins;Gate is close to release. I'm reading it now, and it's fucking awesome. I really recommend it.

Originally Posted by MidoriHiME

The director of this game (Kotaro Uchikoshi) is one of the main writers of Ever17. The games themselves have no connection, but there are definitely similarities. They're so similar I'd say 999 is practically an Infinity series title with puzzles.

Except each of the Infinity games is pretty different from each other, while 999 is just similar to Ever17. I'd sooner call it an Ever17 rip-off than an Infinity title.

Originally Posted by MidoriHiME

Itdoes have the same sort of pseudo-science and psychological mess-with-your head type of conversations as the Infinity series, though.

Oi, the Infinity series uses valid science; the 'fiction' part only comes in at parts not yet explained by current science. It's not comparable to 999's pseudo-science, where stories that have been clearly disproved in the past are used as anecdotes that would lead to questionable conclusions based on a flawed and/or weak theoretical basis. Basically, what they explain to you in the Infinity series might not actually be impossible, whereas 999's "science" is just plain made-up bullshit.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Europe won't get it? I know region-related issues are something that won't go away, but it always sucks hearing that some region has no access to the game because of region locking and import issues. This is why piracy, hacking and illegal patch teams are born. (Well, aside from greediness, y'know.)

Aside from that, I thoroughly enjoyed this game. Agreed that there were several flaws in it such as the fact that whilst the endings differ in nice ways, each path would hit up several rooms over and over, and to get all endings without an FAQ, most people would have to play it at LEAST 6 times. They'll definitely try many times more because there's only one precise way to reach the true ending. Skipping text and playing through the same puzzles did become tedious the 4th or 5th time through.

Overall though, the characters were fun and it was enjoyable.

[VDZ]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Europe won't get it? I know region-related issues are something that won't go away, but it always sucks hearing that some region has no access to the game because of region locking and import issues.

Nintendo DS is region-free. (Enjoy it while it lasts; the 3DS is region-locked, so future Nintendo handheld releases will no longer be importable.)

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by VDZ

Nintendo DS is region-free. (Enjoy it while it lasts; the 3DS is region-locked, so future Nintendo handheld releases will no longer be importable.)

I'm aware of all that, I've got a 3DS myself. My impossible wish is that there just wasn't region crap.

But y'know, that's never gonna happen.