(CR) Honzuki no Gekokujou (Ascendance of a Bookworm)[anime]

[Tenzen12]

Problem is, changing one particular element would mean changing whole freaking story. Again there are novels where you can remove isekai tag and nothing of worth would lost HnG simply isn't one of them.

To do it, you would have to rewrite MC (obviously), you would have to rewrite settings and bring several completely arbirtrary events into it (which would take half of anime) to make it make sense. Amount of effort to change it would be indeed enough to switch to completelly different genre if necessary.

[Znail]

Changing magic to technology in Harry Poter wouldn't change the books that much. It would of course make the movies look diffrently with hover bikes instead of broomsticks and optical cloaking device instead of invisibility cloak, but the main story would be kept.

On the other hand, if we change it so that Harry Poter instead of having a nack for magic, had a magical fairy talking to him in his head explaining to him how to be a better wizard so would it involve quite a lot of dialoge and things needed to be cleared up, like why the fairy wants to help him in the first place, the personality of the fairy etc.

Would it make the books/movies better? I doubt it.

One reason that would work is because Harry Poter doesn't know magic at the start, so have to learn it. But Maine is diffrent as she actually knows how to do things from her past life, not just being faster at learning them. For that matter, having a voice in your head explaining things wont make it faster to actually learn how to do things. It can teach you things unknown to the current world, but it wont make you learn faster.

Nor would it explain Maine's love of Books.

[Zefyris]

So.... What makes you assume ....

Originally Posted by Haak

[...] the MC's background is actually relevant and its one of the few isekai that actually treats the isekai concept the way its supposed to be. But would it be wrong to suggest that show would be a lot better if Tanya weren't a psycho loli? I mean it was funny but still... .

...That there is a "correct" way and "incorrect" ways to "treat the isekai concept"? Isekai type stories are one of the oldest setting in fiction, waaaay older than normal modern fantasy worlds. Are you implying that this setting is in any way or form inferior to the the way more modern tolkien-based fantasy world settings? What makes you assume that? Any sound argument behind it?

Originally Posted by Haak

The others however, yes you could write them without being an Isekai and imo I think it would be better because it gives more opportunity for the MC to be complex with potentially compelling backstories, grounded within the setting you're trying to create.

... That being an isekai or not is linked to quality of compelling backstories and character complexity?
... That you can't ground an isekai setting in the setting you're trying to create? Also for starter, isekai is part of the setting of your story, so being "isekai'ed" is per se technically already grounded in the setting you're creating anyway?

Originally Posted by Haak

I What you're suggesting is an entirely different genre as opposed to what some of us are suggesting is changing one particular plot element that is a poor imitation of a sub-genre. They're leagues apart.

... That you need to JUST change "one particular plot element" to make Honzuki works without the isekai setting? Maybe you should actually try to know the story before assuming that too?

... That Honzuki is in any way or form a "poor imitation of a sub-genre" ?
...What makes it an "imitation" anyway, and what "sub-genre" are you even talking about here?

Huh? So many assumptions that come out of nowhere and that you're trying to impose as the basis for your claims? Pray tell, can you show me that i'm wrong when I'm concluding that all your pieces of opinion on the matter are based on massive unfounded biases about Isekai stories and that you have no extensive knowledge of the current series that you're decrying as well?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Haak

If that's meant to be a comparison to my argument then I'm sure you can appreciate that it is a bit of false analogy (it was to begin with anyway).

I can't, actually.

What you're suggesting is an entirely different genre as opposed to what some of us are suggesting is changing one particular plot element that is a poor imitation of a sub-genre. They're leagues apart.

There's a reason sci-fi and fantasy are often put together. Most of the changes would be nothing more than a cosmetic reskin.

But my point is that you could easily check all the boxes of "quiet bullied boy finding out he's a hero" and "childhood fantasies coming to life" without magic.

OTOH, from the looks of it (because I'm an anime only watcher), to tell Bookworm's story without isekai, you'd still need a gimmick. And, unless someone's had a brilliant idea I haven't seen in this thread, said gimmick will be just as objectionable and much more awkward to implement than simply going the isekai route.

That, or you just write a completely different story. You might as well complain that Ascendance of a Bookworm isn't Violet Evergarden.

I also don't really care about Harry Potter either way so if you want to have that opinion, I wouldn't mind.

I'm so glad to have your permission.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Problem is, changing one particular element would mean changing whole freaking story. Again there are novels where you can remove isekai tag and nothing of worth would lost HnG simply isn't one of them.

To do it, you would have to rewrite MC (obviously), you would have to rewrite settings and bring several completely arbirtrary events into it (which would take half of anime) to make it make sense. Amount of effort to change it would be indeed enough to switch to completelly different genre if necessary.

Honestly, I don't think so. Yes there would be a lot of changes but what would be changed is largely unnecessary. Certain things would have to have happened in different ways, but as far as I'm concerned this story would require a lot of changes just to make into a decent isekai, so I don't see much depth lost.

Originally Posted by Znail

Changing magic to technology in Harry Poter wouldn't change the books that much. It would of course make the movies look diffrently with hover bikes instead of broomsticks and optical cloaking device instead of invisibility cloak, but the main story would be kept.

Well we can agree to disagree here but when i was growing up reading Harry Potter, for me the setting itself was the story. Again, before it got darker

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Zefyris

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Anh_Minh

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[Tenzen12]

Yeah? I never said it's supposed be "deep" story just that acommodating change of genre would be too much hassle with no advantage. If story need lot of changes to became decent isekai (by your standards) and it would also need lot of changes to became decent non-isekai (by your standards) it just means story need lot of changes and genre is non-issue when it come to quality

[Haak]

I'm not disagreeing with you (apart from the "no advantage" bit), but that's only because I have no real preference for the sub-genre. Irenesharde however might be a different case.

[BWTraveller]

Wow, this is a crazy argument going on here. And frankly an absurd one in my humble opinion. I tend to follow the TV Tropes motto: tropes are not bad. If a particular trope or setup is useful to the presentation of the story you want to tell, then use it. If it's neither useful nor detrimental then just do what's most fun. A story of the entire creation of an industry that can revolutionize the world, or of overcoming the experience of not having the one resource that makes your life worth living, is well serviced by the isekai scenario. It allows a person who's accustomed to certain joys to experience not only the frustration of having said joy taken away but also the effects those things had on her world, and ultimately to bring those joys and incredible benefits to the new world. Sure, there may be other ways to do this; Dr. Stone follows somewhat similar concepts with a science freak stuck in a future where science is basically dead and he has to build it back up from nothing. But that doesn't change the fact that it creates a wonderful setting through which to present the story. Not to mention that a lot of stories are practically isekai in all but name, like time travel or space travel or just about any scenario that completely alters the "world" the hero's in. Isekai just doesn't hide what's being done behind excuses like "no we're just going to another planet" or "no it's just the future".

On a side note, Haak, you are incorrect in suggesting that isekai was "originally" kids' stuff. Throughout the history of literature there's been stories, both for kids and for adults, built around the idea of a character or group ending up in a completely different world from their own, experiencing all sorts of things both good and bad. Heck, years and years ago a great series in America came out that hits all the marks: a chosen hero from our world is transported to a parallel world of magic, where he's destined to face off against the ultimate evil with incredible powers that he alone possesses. It was praised as a brilliant work of literature, and most certainly was not for kids (the first book has the guy surrounded by people who practically worship him and filled with self-loathing after he went berserk and raped a young girl).

[Haak]

That sounds interesting but it doesn't sound like something written in the 1860's.

[BWTraveller]

Not 1860s no, but still long ago. And frankly "guy sent to another world" extends all the way into mythology. I'm just saying it's ridiculous to dismiss isekai as something that only belongs in kid lit.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

On a side note, Haak, you are incorrect in suggesting that isekai was "originally" kids' stuff. Throughout the history of literature there's been stories, both for kids and for adults, built around the idea of a character or group ending up in a completely different world from their own, experiencing all sorts of things both good and bad. Heck, years and years ago a great series in America came out that hits all the marks: a chosen hero from our world is transported to a parallel world of magic, where he's destined to face off against the ultimate evil with incredible powers that he alone possesses. It was praised as a brilliant work of literature, and most certainly was not for kids (the first book has the guy surrounded by people who practically worship him and filled with self-loathing after he went berserk and raped a young girl).

I remember seeing a live action movie, just forgot the name. There's this guy with a shotgun who looks like Arnold schwarzenegger, he get magically transported into a medieval world of knights and witches. He scares the knights with the shotgun, saying "this is my boomstick!" and he kills a witch with the shotgun. That show is certainly not for kids.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Haak

That sounds interesting but it doesn't sound like something written in the 1860's.

Why 1860? Why not 1666, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blazing_World.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

I remember seeing a live action movie, just forgot the name. There's this guy with a shotgun who looks like Arnold schwarzenegger, he get magically transported into a medieval world of knights and witches. He scares the knights with the shotgun, saying "this is my boomstick!" and he kills a witch with the shotgun. That show is certainly not for kids.

That's Army of Darkness. Technically I think he's supposed to be time traveling.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Haak

That sounds interesting but it doesn't sound like something written in the 1860's.

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. The first book of which was published in 1977.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

That's Army of Darkness. Technically I think he's supposed to be time traveling.

Hm, yeah, I must have missed all the necromancers and magic in my history books.

Then again, he's time-traveling through magic, anyway, so he already is in another world than ours to begin with, since we time-travel through SCIENCE, OF COURSE... oh, wait. ^^

[BBOvenGuy]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. The first book of which was published in 1977.

Never got into those myself. I tried the first one, but the main character was too much of a jerk for me.

[Random Wanderer]

You want old school isekai? Try The Chronicles of Narnia. A group of kids is brought into another world, either by magic or divine intervention, where they are tasked by God with saving said world from great evil. Seven books, written in the 1950s.

[Tenzen12]

That other Lewis did isekai hundred years before C. S.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Haak

Imo, an important aspect of "travelling to another world" type story is that it is supposed to go hand in hand with "coming of age" elements. If you look at original portal fantasies from ages ago, these were aimed at children and often featured child characters going on quests and adventures that would lead them to grow and learn important life lessons that they could then use when they're returned back home. And that intrinsic aspect of portal fantasies has largely been kept intact up until the grow of the "isekai" subgenre which largely threw away that concept of and instead decided to go full on escapist where the main character can basically live a second life (or in some cases multiple lives) and stay there. And regardless of whether one likes this or not, one can't deny that this is a complete antithesis to what portal fantasies were originally meant to be.

Now I'm not entirely sure where this point that "portal fantasies are inferior to other fantasies" came from because it certainly didn't come from me. All I'm saying is that from my perspective, if a portal fantasy is going to cut out a fundamental part of what makes it a portal fantasy then there's no point in it being a portal fantasy. It might as well just be a fantasy.

This is really weird as you are mixing up the setting with the target audience. There are plenty of old Isekai stories that are not aimed at kids. And how about Harry Potter, it's fantasy, but aimed at kids, shouldn't it be remade to be Isekai to fit in with your idea how books must be written?

Originally Posted by Haak

I mean you can but it's clear to me that this story has no intention of doing so in away that makes the isekai bit relevant. At least that's what i got reading it.

I have to wonder how much you have actually read as this statement makes no sense to me. Unless you actually think that Isekai stories have to be for kids and if it's not aimed at kids so is it wrong.

It seems to me like you have some pretty unique ideas how Isekai must be and this story doesn't fit your idea of Isekai.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

Why 1860? Why not 1666, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blazing_World.

Well I guess that’s a valid point but imo I’d say the modern blueprint is Alice in Wonderland because it’s not hard to see how influential it was and bears much more similarities to the portal fantasies that followed after it. Blazing World on the other hand is a pretty obscure piece of work and it was more on the speculative fiction side of things. And describing modern isekai as “speculative fiction” would be…charitable.

But honestly I’d more than happy to broaden things up a bit and count speculative fiction as well. At the end of the day it’s the same point either way. That there is a thematic purpose for the setting the character is transported to whether it’s for a coming of age adventure or for exploring politics and philosophy (though I rarely see it done in the latter on its own unless it's a portal sci-fi)

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Not 1860s no, but still long ago. And frankly "guy sent to another world" extends all the way into mythology. I'm just saying it's ridiculous to dismiss isekai as something that only belongs in kid lit.

I’m not saying its only kids lit. I’m just saying it’s a genre that has its roots in coming of age stories even when it stopped being largely kids lit.

Originally Posted by Znail

This is really weird as you are mixing up the setting with the target audience. There are plenty of old Isekai stories that are not aimed at kids. And how about Harry Potter, it's fantasy, but aimed at kids, shouldn't it be remade to be Isekai to fit in with your idea how books must be written?

I’m not saying Isekai aren’t portal fantasies just because they don’t have a coming of age element to them. They still feature a character being transported to another world so they’re still portal fantasies, just pointlessly so.

I suppose one could interpret Harry Potter as a portal fantasy of sorts but I’d disagree because it’s clearly an urban fantasy not a portal fantasy. But even from the perspective of whether it has coming of age elements I’d still disagree because whilst it is there to an extent, all of it is firmly kept in the fantasy and Harry remains in that fantasy.

I have to wonder how much you have actually read as this statement makes no sense to me. Unless you actually think that Isekai stories have to be for kids and if it's not aimed at kids so is it wrong.
It seems to me like you have some pretty unique ideas how Isekai must be and this story doesn't fit your idea of Isekai.

There’s nothing I can do if it’s not explained what you don’t understand so I can’t comment on that.