(L+CR) Senki Zesshō Symphogear

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Miku told Hibiki to do what she feels is right, and Hibiki followed her advice, with the results we see now. The thing is, Miku doesn't have to help Hibiki at all if she didn't want to, she could have told her to do things herself and Hibiki would have complied within the limits of her circumstances. I can understand if Miku is angry that Hibiki cannot take care of chores or schoolwork and refuses to help further, but to outright end a deep friendship?

What would be the point of Miku no longer doing chores or helping Hibiki with her homework? Those are trivial things which only demonstrate Miku's commitment to their relationship; Miku does them only because Hibiki isn't able to, or is too busy to do herself. The point is not that Miku is unable to put in the effort ("scaling back the relationship" like you are saying; that kind of thing is absurd because so long as they are living together, stuff like chores must be done, whether Miku and Hibiki are friends or not); the point is that Miku is unable to see any actual effort from Hibiki (towards their relationship; towards Miku specifically) herself.

I already explained why. We're not shown any big issues in Miku's life other than Hibiki, so what "comfort and support" does she need that only Hibiki and no other friend can provide? If Hibiki and Miku only have one friend, each other, and refuse to get to know others to the same level (the three other girls are not presented on the same level as the two, they seem like mere acquaintances only) that's borderline obsession and clearly unhealthy. That's why I'm saying there were issues even before Hibiki got her powers. Having one spoil the other also flies in the the concept of normal friendship, where the individuals should be equal. I'm not convinced Hibiki was "spoiled" before she became a Symphogear, otherwise Miku should have exploded much sooner if she couldn't accept working for no return.

It's not borderline obsession, it's a pseudo-romantic relationship. Yes, committed relationships do require some degree of specialness or exclusivity.

Miku doesn't need "comfort and support" from Hibiki. She's the sunshine in Hibiki's life. Hibiki is the one who's emotionally dependant on Miku whereas Miku just likes spending time together with her or seeing her working hard. All Miku wants from Hibiki is some genuine sense that she is special in Hibiki's life.

When Hibiki is around Miku, she treats her like she's special. "Sunshine of my life", "warmest spot I know", etc. However, when Hibiki is off doing stuff away from Miku, she often acts like she forgets Miku even exists (getting lost in her training, ditching Miku for Tsubasa, etc.). That's the problem. If Miku is only special to Hibiki part of the time (the times when it's convenient for Hibiki), then its impossible for Miku to treat Hibiki as special all of the time herself. However, it's not like Miku has some switch which allows her to turn off her feelings for Hibiki, or like Miku can even know what times Hibiki will be available (i.e. whether they'll be able to go on their date or not). If Miku must be forced to scale back her expectations for Hibiki, it might be easier to simply have no relationship at all.

[tezu]

I'm convinced that was something Hibiki asked her for so they could actually hang out together for once.

I can imagine better ways to spend time than that xD In the end, it was for Hibiki's training so that she could get stronger and she asked Miku to acompany her. It wasn't like a date where you just go somewhere nice and have fun (like the meteor shower) but then again it shows that Hibiki doesn't really think this much about Miku.

Just because a person wants to talk to their friend doesn't mean that s/he is dependent. What I mean by dependent is that Hibiki is not completely unable to take care of herself, and is unlikely to be a slob like Tsubasa.

Actually, we don't know how she'll do without Miku yet...seeing that Miku's taken care of everything so far, And Tsubasa was injured that time, so that could explain why her room was such a mess...? ^^;

That's why I'm saying there were issues even before Hibiki got her powers. [...] I'm not convinced Hibiki was "spoiled" before she became a Symphogear, otherwise Miku should have exploded much sooner if she couldn't accept working for no return.

I agree that their relationship is unbalanced and that it was already unbalanced way before Hibiki started fighting. Perhaps it started after that concert (is this what you mean by "before she became a Symphogear"?) and Miku worked hard to relieve her sense of guilt, even if it meant receiving nothing in return. But that's just speculation. Whether it's her fear of losing her best friend -again-, the feeling of helplessness, loneliness, frustration or guilt - all these feelings she held in added up the moment she learned the truth and overwhelmed her. And unlike Hibiki, Miku has no one she can rely on.

In the end, the core problem isn't that Miku ended their friendship. It isn't about how Miku abandonned Hibiki because "she couldn't take not being the center of Hibiki's world" and how she's being unfair to Hibiki who has to save the world. Most people simply forget about the things Miku's done for Hibiki, they take her for granted and expect that she'll always be the strong, supportive background character. The core problem is the unbalanced relationship, one partner is totally committed and the other partner fails to show their appreciation. It went well as long as Hibiki was the only one in need of support. But the moment Miku's own weaknesses surfaced, their relationship imploded. Miku's reaction is just the natural result of this relationship setup. Both, or neither of the characters are at fault here.

[justsomeguy]

@Sol Falling

Why do you think certain people are claiming that Miku is selfish? It's specifically because of what you are saying here, that she wants Hibiki to treat her specially all the time despite knowing of what kind of business she's gotten involved in.

It's not borderline obsession, it's a pseudo-romantic relationship. Yes, committed relationships do require some degree of specialness or exclusivity.

That is what I mean. As for "comfort and support," the reason why that is in quotes is because other people use that terminology to describe what Hibiki is not giving Miku. I'm saying there is no such thing Miku needs.

When Hibiki is around Miku, she treats her like she's special. "Sunshine of my life", "warmest spot I know", etc. However, when Hibiki is off doing stuff away from Miku, she often acts like she forgets Miku even exists (getting lost in her training, ditching Miku for Tsubasa, etc.). That's the problem. If Miku is only special to Hibiki part of the time (the times when it's convenient for Hibiki), then its impossible for Miku to treat Hibiki as special all of the time herself. However, it's not like Miku has some switch which allows her to turn off her feelings for Hibiki, or like Miku can even know what times Hibiki will be available (i.e. whether they'll be able to go on their date or not).

Yes, and that is why people think that Miku is being unreasonable.

If Miku must be forced to scale back her expectations for Hibiki, it might be easier to simply have no relationship at all.

That's why I'm saying their so-called friendship had issues even before Hibiki discovered her powers, and why I called it borderline obsession. Rather than being based on mutual respect and acceptance of whatever flaws there might be and working through trouble together, suddenly it turns out the other person has other obligations to deal with and the solution is to end the relationship rather than talk it out.

Originally Posted by tezu

I can imagine better ways to spend time than that xD In the end, it was for Hibiki's training so that she could get stronger and she asked Miku to acompany her. It wasn't like a date where you just go somewhere nice and have fun (like the meteor shower) but then again it shows that Hibiki doesn't really think this much about Miku.

Well, if that's how you think of it then I can argue that Miku doesn't really think enough about Hibiki either (at least, not more than making sure that she thinks of her as "special" as others have put it). The bath scene immediately after, Miku notices the injuries on Hibiki's body, yet does not follow up. If your friend disappears by herself for unexplained reasons recently and you notice the next time you look that she's obviously been in a rough situation, a connection should be obvious, and questions need to be asked. In that sort of situation, even non-answers are telling.

Actually, we don't know how she'll do without Miku yet...seeing that Miku's taken care of everything so far, And Tsubasa was injured that time, so that could explain why her room was such a mess...? ^^;

Well, Tsubasa mentioned that she lets her manager handle things most of the time. I don't see how even an injured person could make a mess like that.

And unlike Hibiki, Miku has no one she can rely on.

Yeah, that's what I noticed. I don't know if it's just a consequence of the writing/story structure, but we get to see Hibiki interact with other characters, but whenever Hibiki is not around Miku appears alone. Those three other girls don't show up except when Hibiki is with Miku. And that is why I made the statement that Miku needs Hibiki more than the reverse; we got to see Hibiki's social skills (terrible at times, but still workable), but none of Miku's.

In the end, the core problem isn't that Miku ended their friendship. It isn't about how Miku abandonned Hibiki because "she couldn't take not being the center of Hibiki's world" and how she's being unfair to Hibiki who has to save the world. Most people simply forget about the things Miku's done for Hibiki, they take her for granted and expect that she'll always be the strong, supportive background character. The core problem is the unbalanced relationship, one partner is totally committed and the other partner fails to show their appreciation. It went well as long as Hibiki was the only one in need of support. But the moment Miku's own weaknesses surfaced, their relationship imploded. Miku's reaction is just the natural result of this relationship setup.

The problem is, the way the anime presented it, the implosion happened right after Miku learned the truth about what Hibiki was up to. The only thing that had changed was that Miku had gained knowledge, and at that point I expected understanding and talking. It was an opportunity to restore some balance to the relationship, but Miku refused to talk to Hibiki. If the relationship had collapsed before Miku learned the truth, I would have given her a pass since she didn't know.

Both, or neither of the characters are at fault here.

I agree with that statement. Despite claiming to enjoy helping people, Hibiki has shown herself to be callous a couple of times in the show. I remember the first episode, when Miku couldn't show up at the concert because her grandmother had been in an accident and Hibiki not showing any concern, or when she told Tsubasa that she would replace Kanade (WTF, who can actually say something like that?!). Miku herself is definitely not innocent in the collapse, she was the one who spoiled Hibiki, was too nice and did not complain when she should have, etc.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

I agree with that statement. Despite claiming to enjoy helping people, Hibiki has shown herself to be callous a couple of times in the show. I remember the first episode, when Miku couldn't show up at the concert because her grandmother had been in an accident and Hibiki not showing any concern, or when she told Tsubasa that she would replace Kanade (WTF, who can actually say something like that?!). Miku herself is definitely not innocent in the collapse, she was the one who spoiled Hibiki, was too nice and did not complain when she should have, etc.

Well, at least we can agree on this.

Ultimately, the fact is that the relationship didn't work, so Miku ended it. Now it's time to see how Hibiki deals with herself without Miku, and whether she will try to make up wit her of not. Either way, it's her decision to make.

[Scarletknive]

Originally Posted by Aphrah

Actually, it was never said that Finé wanted to end war. It was Chris who wanted to do that, and Finé simply gave her the means to do so. I personally don't think Fine is even a little bit good, as she's willing to kill off her subordinate after her usefulness had run out.

I also don't think Chris was aware that she was being the villain; in her eyes, it was the people who waged wars that were the villains. She had given up on believing that humans could empathize with each other, and as a result she came to believe that wars could only be prevented if those with the will to fight were to be eliminated. After all, Chris did seem fairly surprised to hear her that way of doing things would never do the world any good.


Was it in episode 6 that she said that? I can't seem to remember. But that could be her being poetic about those who lost their families, and are simply 'floating' around in the world without with nothing to live for.

And eh, is it Finé or Finè? I'm pretty sure it's the former, but I could be mistaken.

Same as Celestial Being in Gundam 00...Destroying wars through intervention. Now you make me wonder whether the guy on the phone is voiced by Hiroshi...
"You know too much." *GN-Mega launcher-ed*

I think if we relook at the episode with subs again, we may get the answer on whether is it Finé or Finè. Or...What language is her name? Since her name means "end" in english, maybe if I use google translate, we may get the answer too.

[FateAnomaly]

Come to think of it, we don't know what the agency people told Miku. What if they told Miku the same thing the told Hibiki. That Hibiki might get hurt if she is around her. I think that Miku doesn't really want to "break off" with Hibiki. Miku cried when she "dumped Hibiki" and we know from episode 1 that she is really sad that Hibiki died.

[CrowKenobi]

I think whats really needs to be pointed out is what I think upset Miku the most: she heard from a third party what Hibiki was doing, when she should've heard it from Hibiki herself.

I would like to think that if Hibiki "manned-up" and told Miku what was going on, Miku would give Hibiki the third degree, but then forgive her somewhat and then insist Hibiki tell her the truth when "work" related stuff comes up.

[tezu]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Well, if that's how you think of it then I can argue that Miku doesn't really think enough about Hibiki either (at least, not more than making sure that she thinks of her as "special" as others have put it). The bath scene immediately after, Miku notices the injuries on Hibiki's body, yet does not follow up. If your friend disappears by herself for unexplained reasons recently and you notice the next time you look that she's obviously been in a rough situation, a connection should be obvious, and questions need to be asked. In that sort of situation, even non-answers are telling.

Miku did notice that Hibiki was dealing with something difficult and she tried to offer support. I don't know how many times Miku hinted that she would like to reach out to Hibiki, but Hibiki couldn't confide in her. She thinks about Hibiki a LOT more than Hibiki thinks about her. Miku knows Hibiki well enough to notice the change even though the latter puts on her usual happy-go-lucky air. Hibiki only notices Miku's problems when Miku openly expresses her dissatisfaction and even then she's unable to find the right words and simply settles for a repetitve "sorry".

Yeah, that's what I noticed. I don't know if it's just a consequence of the writing/story structure, but we get to see Hibiki interact with other characters, but whenever Hibiki is not around Miku appears alone. Those three other girls don't show up except when Hibiki is with Miku. And that is why I made the statement that Miku needs Hibiki more than the reverse; we got to see Hibiki's social skills (terrible at times, but still workable), but none of Miku's.

Hibiki only gets to use her "social skills" because she is forced to. She is thrown into this situation so of course she'll end up socializing with others sooner or later. If Hibiki didn't need Miku as much as Miku needed her, why didn't she establish any other close relationships? The three girls don't seem closer to Hibiki than they are to Miku. There was this one scene where they wanted to leave Hibiki behind with her homework and do some other fun stuff together. It was only Miku who stayed back. I bet Hibiki would feel just as lonely if their roles were reversed, it's just the way their relationship was designed.

Why do you think certain people are claiming that Miku is selfish? It's specifically because of what you are saying here, that she wants Hibiki to treat her specially all the time despite knowing of what kind of business she's gotten involved in.
[...]
The problem is, the way the anime presented it, the implosion happened right after Miku learned the truth about what Hibiki was up to. The only thing that had changed was that Miku had gained knowledge, and at that point I expected understanding and talking. It was an opportunity to restore some balance to the relationship, but Miku refused to talk to Hibiki. If the relationship had collapsed before Miku learned the truth, I would have given her a pass since she didn't know.

We're basically bothered by the same thing but come to different conclusions The timing of the implosion is the reason why I don't believe Miku's upset just because of that one lie or because Hibiki prioritizes the world over her. (Btw, my posts are based on the premise that there's no such thing as amazingly inconsistent writing I'm giving the series more credit than it deserves). Miku's emotions are a mystery to us because we rarely hear her view on things. But throughout episodes 1-6 she was presented as a calm and understanding girl. The timing of their breakup seems to shout "Miku's a selfish brat" all over the place, but that totally contradicts the way she's been presented before. Hibiki already neglected her before she learnt the truth but Miku -although saddened- beared with it and even wanted to talk about it. Knowing the reason behind her neglection doesn't change things, what's new to her is the fact her friend is fighting against dangerous enemies. And that's when Miku surprised all the people out there who expected her to continue her role as the faithful wife and to be "happy" that Hibiki stood her up her for a good cause. Who would've expected that having a superhero friend could add new dimensions (like death) to Miku's emotional insecurity (built up over the years she's spent with Hibiki in this isolated, unbalanced relationship)? Miku does not have to be strong for Hibiki if she hasn't even come to terms with the situation herself. She can hardly burden Hibiki with the fact that she's uncomfortable with the situation if it's Hibiki who has to risk her life (and Hibiki probably doesn't have a history of being the one to comfort Miku). Other people won't understand her situation. That's why she distances herself from the source of her problems. Now it's up to Hibiki to figure out what's going on in Miku's head if she wants to and Miku can use the time to deal with her feelings.

Alright, episode 8 should be out soon, I'm just gonna wait and see how the do-ra-ma unfolds xD

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

I think whats really needs to be pointed out is what I think upset Miku the most: she heard from a third party what Hibiki was doing, when she should've heard it from Hibiki herself.

I would like to think that if Hibiki "manned-up" and told Miku what was going on, Miku would give Hibiki the third degree, but then forgive her somewhat and then insist Hibiki tell her the truth when "work" related stuff comes up.

I really think hearing from a third party is just the final straw more than the gravest mistake. Miku was upset long before she found out.

It was already troublesome that Hibiki had to cancel their arrangements at the last minute, but it always seemed like it was something out of her control, so Miku let it slide and covered for her. Unplanned emergencies are understandable.

However, when Hibiki started training, she also began to skip out on schoolwork and time with Miku voluntarily. The notion is only reinforced when Miku finds Hibiki happily conversing with Tsubasa. Yuri goggles aside, Hibiki talking to Tsubasa doesn't look like an uncontrollable circumstance.

When Hibiki's ditching becomes voluntary, it makes her come off as insincere, like she's taking advantage of Miku's kindness and expecting her to cover on a regular basis.

Miku hearing what Hibiki has been up to from a third party makes Hibiki seem even more insincere. Was Hibiki ever going to tell Miku? It doesn't seem likely. If Hibiki apologizes, does she expect Miku to accept it and continue covering for her? That's an unbalanced relationship.

[Sinestra]

Man i had no clue that Hibiki and Miku fight would generate this much in depth discussion. Pretty interesting seeing how differently people view the situation.

[CrowKenobi]

^

Anyway, to bring the tired, old married couple cliche into this: Hibiki is sleeping on the couch for the foreseeable future with a helping of cold shoulder to go with it!

But, I do hope that they can work it out before the grand finale, otherwise, it makes the episode one teaser even more bittersweet than it already is...

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Scarletknive

Same as Celestial Being in Gundam 00...Destroying wars through intervention. Now you make me wonder whether the guy on the phone is voiced by Hiroshi...
"You know too much." *GN-Mega launcher-ed*

I think if we relook at the episode with subs again, we may get the answer on whether is it Finé or Finè. Or...What language is her name? Since her name means "end" in english, maybe if I use google translate, we may get the answer too.

Ah, I wouldn't know, as I haven't watched a single episode of the Gundam series. :<

According to sirn, 'Fine' means 'End' in musical composition. It seems to be an English term derived from Italian. The English equivalent of the pronunciation is Finé, and not Finè. I'm a little curious as to which of the two the NicoNico subs will use.

[xizro345]

Fine actually means "End" as in general Italian as well, musical connotations aside (though it was probably chosen for that reason).

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

I think whats really needs to be pointed out is what I think upset Miku the most: she heard from a third party what Hibiki was doing, when she should've heard it from Hibiki herself.

I would like to think that if Hibiki "manned-up" and told Miku what was going on, Miku would give Hibiki the third degree, but then forgive her somewhat and then insist Hibiki tell her the truth when "work" related stuff comes up.

There's that non-disclosure agreement. Heck both of them could be imprisoned for treason.

State secrets are serious business. It's the type of stuff people can get killed for.

The moment Hibiki joined the agency she became an agent of the state. As such she had to separate her personal life from her professional life.

[Scarletknive]

Originally Posted by Aphrah

Ah, I wouldn't know, as I haven't watched a single episode of the Gundam series. :<

According to sirn, 'Fine' means 'End' in musical composition. It seems to be an English term derived from Italian. The English equivalent of the pronunciation is Finé, and not Finè. I'm a little curious as to which of the two the NicoNico subs will use.

Then start watching Gundam 00...you will get some parodies that was shown here from there. (Starting from 1st episode.)

I don't think anyone will know what language is that unless the subber knows the language well enough, or he is just lucky to guess that language.

Hmm...speaking of Ryoko and Finé, you guys said that those 2 are the same person due to VA issues, did i miss out another evidence that leads to them being the same person?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

There's that non-disclosure agreement. Heck both of them could be imprisoned for treason.

State secrets are serious business. It's the type of stuff people can get killed for.

The moment Hibiki joined the agency she became an agent of the state. As such she had to separate her personal life from her professional life.

She didn't separate her personal life from her professional life. She neglected her personal life and let Miku take care of it for her.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

She didn't separate her personal life from her professional life. She neglected her personal life and let Miku take care of it for her.

Did I not just say she legally can't tell Miku about her job? This and that are different things.

Hibiki knows Miku shouldn't get involved as it is the stuff that can get her detained indefinitely or murdered over.

Hibiki will make the time if she has the time. Given the agency has only two Symphogear users and one of which is currently handicapped Hibiki has a responsibility for and obligation to her country.

Hibiki can't quit because people die. She's seen that two years before. It's even happening now.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Hibiki will make the time if she has the time.

Well, some times she had the time yet she still neglected her personal life.

Either way though, she made the choice to join the organization on her own, so it's her responsibility if her personal life got messed up because of it.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

There's that non-disclosure agreement. Heck both of them could be imprisoned for treason.

State secrets are serious business. It's the type of stuff people can get killed for.

And as before, Hibiki could do that if she wanted to, and there isn't a single thing the agency could do about it, besides accepting it. She has all the cards, they have none. She could be demanding a 1 million $ hourly wage, coupled with a limo, personal cook and around the clock maid service. And a pink unicorn. And they would have no choice but to oblige. Her cooperation is literally priceless, and her not being willing to cooperate (never mind her turning against them) not an option considering what's at stake. Hibiki being willing to cooperate for nothing but an official permission to tell her one friend about it would be a dream-deal for the agency.

But that would make too much sense, and that wouldn't allow room for convenient drama. Hell, she would have a team of psychiatrists working with her on daily basis to ensure she stays sane given the new enviroment she, a regular teenage girl, has been thrown in and forced to fight for her life. The second they would have caught wind that Hibiki's emotional state is largely dependent on Miku's support, Hibiki would have to threaten them not to reveal it all to Miku in order to squeeze as much emotional support out of her for their irreplaceable symphogear user as possible. The whole situation is pretty silly to start with.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

And as before, Hibiki could do that if she wanted to, and there isn't a single thing the agency could do about it

1. Imprisoning Hibiki turning her to a lab rat.

2. Taking her friends and family as hostages.

You don't think this through do you?